Metro Vancouver Transit Discussion

[twoNeurons]

The problem with backups is that you never know if they're backed up properly until you have to test them. It's a System Admin's worst nightmare.

It's better to have redundant systems that you switch between or share loads with.

[Mac Write]

For us geeks I hope they post a picture of the failed card. Would love to see what it looks like. and I was caught up in it and loved it! the bus driver even let me off right in front of my house!

[st7860]

the expo line was down on thursday evening - not sure of the reason. it was a fun night.

[xd_1771]

^ I'm eating my hat right now because of how DMJ seems to have gotten to the bus drivers' union with that "only 7 SkyTrain systems built" nonsense. What with the ignorance of the upcoming LIM line in Sendai and three Guangzhou Metro Lines, the newest of which is already busier than the entire SkyTrain system. I was worried that the system technology would be brought up as some sort of downfall with the passing of this issue. But, one of the things I know from having worked with computers and computer issues for years is that sometimes you can't stop a part from failing - wear-and-tear can hit randomly, like... suddenly, boom, you have a hard drive dead. It sucks, and you have to deal with it. I'm curious to see what'd happen if, say, the communication system that connects bus drivers with the control centres were to randomly go down one day. There'd be similar chaos throughout the system. Really, this could have just been a case of really, really bad luck.

Nathan Woods might just be in the middle of a double fault there, actually. The new transit performance review finds that outlying areas have seen service improvements, when overall service hours are taken into account. Not service cuts.

I weep for the bus drivers' union. This is going to be a huge blow to their future credibility.

[SpongeG]

i was reading some of the comments on facebook, yikes. a lot of people whining that they were stuck in the train for 2.5 hours and they want their money back or they want the system replaced or just way out there idiots whining

[memememe76]

If I were stuck in a Skytrain for 2.5 hours, I'd be "whining" too. That is a long time.

[queetz@home]

Originally Posted by xd_1771

I weep for the bus drivers' union. This is going to be a huge blow to their future credibility.

At least the bus drivers union is still open for things that are rail based, even if its not a technology you personally prefer. If it was the bus riders union, they wouldn't be open for anything that has steel wheels on it.

The Vancouver Bus Riders Union, backed by Derek Corrigan when Translink held public meetings, were just copying the original LA group's issues (transit issues disproportionately affect people of colour, women, and poor people) when they clearly did not apply here. Just a bunch of whiney self entitled kids whose sole goal is to disrupt meetings out of mischief and Larry Campbell was spot on when he called them "loosers" in public.

I doubt you or DMJ would be able to influence anybody. But you can run for office in Surrey if you believe your cause is something that large amount of people would seriously rally for.

Originally Posted by memememe76

If I were stuck in a Skytrain for 2.5 hours, I'd be "whining" too. That is a long time.

Ditto. That is quite unacceptable, extremely disruptive, and the fact that it was allowed to happen shows that there is a serious flaw in the way they operate the system that needs to be fixed.

[xd_1771]

^ The funny thing is, I was following the issue on Twitter. There was one person (Jennifer Saltzman I think? Reporter from somewhere) who was mentioning how there were staff already ready to do a manual operation of most of the trains caught in the problem and there was one at her train - AFTER which people stepped out onto the tracks/emergency walkway, ruining everything. That probably took a hit on the amount of available staff, in addition to causing the system shutdown.

[rxp]

According to CTV BC... at noon hour, said a backup system would cost about 20Million dollar...

http://bc.ctvnews.ca/backup-computer-system-for-skytrain-would-cost-20-million-1.1920852

[queetz@home]

Originally Posted by rxp

According to CTV BC... at noon hour, said a backup system would cost about 20Million dollar...

http://bc.ctvnews.ca/backup-computer-system-for-skytrain-would-cost-20-million-1.1920852

Seeing that footage reminded me of my complaint about the old Expo cars without air conditioning. Man! 2.5 hours stuck in one of those with tons of sweaty people during a hot summer day....the horror.

[DKaz]

Originally Posted by whatnext

This is why I love my car.

Because major traffic jams never happen, right? Accidents on three major crossings. Takes two-three hours to drive home. All a myth?

[logan5]

Originally Posted by rxp

According to CTV BC... at noon hour, said a backup system would cost about 20Million dollar...

http://bc.ctvnews.ca/backup-computer-system-for-skytrain-would-cost-20-million-1.1920852

If service interruptions could be eliminated (or almost) for 20 million, you gotta take a serious look at that option. There must be some financial loss incurred every time there's a shut down - overtime, lost customers, etc. Something as crucial as Skytrain should be counted on to work every day.

[DKaz]

Also, media keeps on citing 8pm as the system restoral time. I don't know about the rest of the affected system but there were no trains between 22nd St. Station and Scott Road Station as of 10:30pm, and the first trains finally rolled through at 10:45pm.

I stayed late at work until 8:30, then left to go meet a friend at Metro who drove us to Market Crossing in Big Bend, Burnaby, to the Revscene weekly Thursday night meet. Was fun, hung out with friends, then we left at 10:15pm as people were starting to do burnouts and that usually means the cops are coming. So another buddy who lives in Coquitlam drove me in his sweet new Scion FRS to Scott Road Station where I had parked my minivan at the park & ride, just as the trains were rolling in. So instead of frustrating myself on the train, I got to hang out with friends and look at some cool cars. It turned out to be a nice evening after all.

[Steveston]

Originally Posted by DKaz

Because major traffic jams never happen, right? Accidents on three major crossings. Takes two-three hours to drive home. All a myth?

That head-on in the tunnel last week turned my 35 minute commute into a 2hrs + ordeal.

Bridges, Tunnels, or computer-controlled rapid transit -- Shit happens.

[nname]

Originally Posted by Kisai

I question why the Bus Driver Union leader would bring this up:

CKNW,Shane Woodford,July 18, 2014 12:59 am


The Skytrain is more reliable, because it has no drivers, grade separation so there are no accidents with vehicles and pedestrians, and this outage just proves how well it works. Computer failed, trains stopped, nobody died.

As far as I know, in Calgary, the C-Trains are driven by bus drivers.

[dpogue]

Originally Posted by queetz@home

Ditto. That is quite unacceptable, extremely disruptive, and the fact that it was allowed to happen shows that there is a serious flaw in the way they operate the system that needs to be fixed.

Yes, part of the delay was caused by people breaking out of trains, but another contributing factor was just the number of trains and the spacing.

Imagine there's 1 staff member at 22nd station, 2 staff members at New West station, and 5 trains at or between those stations. Suddenly all trains stop and need to be manually driven:

<---------------[train]---------------------------[train]-------<
 22nd                                                         NW
>-----[train]------------[train]---------------[train]---------->

The staff member at 22nd walks out to the nearest outbound train and drives up to the next train. At this point, they have to leave that train (and its passengers) and walk to the train directly ahead of them to drive it out of the way.
If they are lucky, one of the staff at New West has reached the train ahead of that one and moved it out of the way.
If not, then they have to abandon the second train to move the third.
Then go back for the second.
Then go back for the first.

And that still leaves at least one train on the inbound with passengers anxiously waiting to be driven back to 22nd.

Additional staff from other parts of the system couldn't get there quickly because there were no trains. Some staff did drive over from other stations, but traffic delayed them by a good 45 minutes.

That said, I would definitely be complaining if I were stuck on a train for over an hour waiting to be rescued. But I do understand how and why that situation can arise.

[BCPhil]

Originally Posted by DKaz

Because major traffic jams never happen, right? Accidents on three major crossings. Takes two-three hours to drive home. All a myth?

I take Skytrain almost every day, and the last major disruption I remember was in October or November when there were 3 different problem trains in the AM rush, so Expo line was basically closed and Columbia to Commercial on the Millennium line took over an hour. But at least in that, the trains were able to move. If you were on a train, it was only stuck between stations for about 10 minutes tops. And more often than not, the trains would dwell inside the stations (with doors open) instead of between them. It was slow going, but it was moving.

Last night would have been hell on earth for the people stuck on the trains, not moving at all for over an hour. It is literally enough to drive some people insane with anxiety. They either need a backup or just turn off the power and let them out of the trains and walk back.

It does happen to vehicle traffic, but not quite like that. Even if everything is ground to a standstill, you can put your car in park and get out of it. If it is inching along, and you are feeling stressed or claustrophobic, you can take the next side street and park or take a detour, maybe get some chores done.

People complaining it took longer to get home should just get over it. People in cars are not immune to it either. Infact the last time I drove to work, I got stuck in the mess from the train trestle fire at Oak Street on my way home. And I got stuck in the mess yesterday (but found out about it before getting on the train so took the long way around it instead of dealing with it).

But people who were stuck on frozen trains between stations for over an hour have a legitimate gripe. And it's easy to blame them for compounding the issue by getting out of the trains and walking, but the human spirit can only take so much waiting before frustration and panic set in. It should be expected that after even 30 minutes of not moving, at least 1 person out of 400 on a train is going to have a panic attack and want to get the fuck off that train in any way ASAP.

Waiting for a bus with thousands of other people sucks, big time. But at least if you hate it that much you can walk away, go to a pub, or a store or a library. People stuck on a train are in a hellscape populated by their doubts and worries that they cannot escape from no mater how hard they try.

Out of the hundreds of people stuck, you don't think there was at least one guy who was almost home and holding it in until he got there? I feel so bad for that guy.

[dreambrother808]

Originally Posted by DKaz

Because major traffic jams never happen, right? Accidents on three major crossings. Takes two-three hours to drive home. All a myth?

Don't feed the troll.

[spm2013]

Originally Posted by DKaz

Because major traffic jams never happen, right? Accidents on three major crossings. Takes two-three hours to drive home. All a myth?

He has a bicycle in his trunk.

[xd_1771]

Originally Posted by nname

As far as I know, in Calgary, the C-Trains are driven by bus drivers.

It's kind of ironic because, if anything, having our SkyTrain and its excellent ridership attraction/community-building results is helping drive bus ridership and require the hiring of more bus drivers. It's all in our region-wide regional-transit-trips-per-capita results, topping cities our size in North America.

But people who were stuck on frozen trains between stations for over an hour have a legitimate gripe. And it's easy to blame them for compounding the issue by getting out of the trains and walking, but the human spirit can only take so much waiting before frustration and panic set in. It should be expected that after even 30 minutes of not moving, at least 1 person out of 400 on a train is going to have a panic attack and want to get the fuck off that train in any way ASAP.

Waiting for a bus with thousands of other people sucks, big time. But at least if you hate it that much you can walk away, go to a pub, or a store or a library. People stuck on a train are in a hellscape populated by their doubts and worries that they cannot escape from no mater how hard they try.

Out of the hundreds of people stuck, you don't think there was at least one guy who was almost home and holding it in until he got there? I feel so bad for that guy.

Actually... if the Twitter pattern from reporter @jensaltman (I was following and apparently she was on a problem train on the Skybridge, according to some early tweets - I later asked her more about it) was correct, staff were basically on the trains and ready to manually drive any frozen trains - RIGHT AFTER which the doors were opened and someone got out. She said that staff were using the intercom system to tell passengers not to get off the trains throughout. I get that it had been awhile and that makes you anxious, but it looks like it wasn't as if anyone was being left in the dark. Basically, they were almost there. It's a tough call, but I'm willing to believe that there could have been a better outcome if passengers were more cooperative.