YVR Airport & Sea Island Developments Discussion

[eemy]

India has a number of barriers to getting service from Canada. It is a long route, and tends to be primarily VFR traffic and is therefore not very high-yielding. Compound the low yields and high costs with the fact that the market has heavy competition in every direction (through Europe and through Asia) and VFR traffic is more than happy to take non-direct flights, and you have a route that is very difficult to justify.

Jet Airways seems to be able to make their Toronto flight work with a stop in Brussels. I imagine a future flight to Vancouver would similarly have a stop.

[DDP]

Re India I'm surprised YVR/Bc itself doesn't make more noise about bringing Emirites or Ethihad in to service India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Saudi, and of coarse the UAE and other gulf regions. Even 3x week would be huge for region IMO.

Air India is mess financially, jet would need to stop somewhere to make it work, AC needs to send you through Frankfurt or Istanbul which means secondary cities are hard to get to, and holding prices high.

I'm in Ontario but know many Indians out that way who drive to Seattle to do there trips home, wonder how much traffic YVR is losing to Seattle emirates flight.

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by DDP

Re India I'm surprised YVR/Bc itself doesn't make more noise about bringing Emirites or Ethihad in to service India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Saudi, and of coarse the UAE and other gulf regions. Even 3x week would be huge for region IMO.

Air India is mess financially, jet would need to stop somewhere to make it work, AC needs to send you through Frankfurt or Istanbul which means secondary cities are hard to get to, and holding prices high.

I'm in Ontario but know many Indians out that way who drive to Seattle to do there trips home, wonder how much traffic YVR is losing to Seattle emirates flight.

As I understand, QATAR made a request for a flight YVR-Doha, more than a year back. The feds turned it down, I imagine that it would "prey" on Canadian routes to India.
So where are the freking routes, anyway, particularly since AC itself won't start something the snuck up.

[Vagabond]

Originally Posted by DDP

Re India I'm surprised YVR/Bc itself doesn't make more noise about bringing Emirites or Ethihad in to service India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Saudi, and of coarse the UAE and other gulf regions. Even 3x week would be huge for region IMO.

Air India is mess financially, jet would need to stop somewhere to make it work, AC needs to send you through Frankfurt or Istanbul which means secondary cities are hard to get to, and holding prices high.

I'm in Ontario but know many Indians out that way who drive to Seattle to do there trips home, wonder how much traffic YVR is losing to Seattle emirates flight.

A friend of mine who works for Emirates (EK) told me about a year and a half ago that, on an average day, about 7% of the SEA-DXB flight was traffic making the connection from/to Vancouver (for what it's worth). I'm guessing this would not include those who drove down to Seattle.

He also told me that the SEA-DXB flight meant that the chances EK will fly to YVR in the near future are slim to none. EK is really trying to funnel passengers from YVR through SEA on AS and are targeting not just Indian passengers in the Lower Mainland but also Iranians, Lebanese, etc. For destinations like BOM and DEL, EK might not be the best option, but for smaller cities in the region (not served by the likes of BA, Lufthansa, & Cathay Pacific) they are very competitive out of YVR.

Also, just a note on Air India, things there appear to be on the upswing. Just admitted to the Star Alliance, launching a host of new routes with their 787s, consolidating a genunine hub at DEL - all are good signs that (at some point in the not too distant future) they will likely turn their eyes again to the large Indian diaspora in Canada. Obviously restarting YYZ will be their priority, but I think AI is now far and away the most likely candidate to fly YVR-DEL non-stop (even if this is still extremely unlikely).

IMO, the most logical airline to start YVR-DEL service is actually (and ironically) AC Rouge, which could do a seasonal charter in the busy winter season on a 767 with a refuel stop somewhere in northern Europe (and to pick up/drop off a few Nordic ski bums on the way to/from Whistler). No messing around with the non-existent business traffic and a priority focus on keeping costs low (an all important factor to many Indian travellers). Shave an hour or two and a few $ off what it currently on offer and it might just work .

[Cage]

Originally Posted by DDP

Re India I'm surprised YVR/Bc itself doesn't make more noise about bringing Emirites or Ethihad in to service India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Saudi, and of coarse the UAE and other gulf regions. Even 3x week would be huge for region IMO.

Air India is mess financially, jet would need to stop somewhere to make it work, AC needs to send you through Frankfurt or Istanbul which means secondary cities are hard to get to, and holding prices high.

I'm in Ontario but know many Indians out that way who drive to Seattle to do there trips home, wonder how much traffic YVR is losing to Seattle emirates flight.

Cannot be that much traffic YVR is losing to SEA, EK only has 77W on the route. I would think with 50 A380s on the property that SEA-DXB would warrant the super ugly if demand was there.

[Johnny Aussie]

Now that Air India has joined Star Alliance there is a better chance of restarting Canada flights.

However, as for YVR, I think more likely will be code-shares, possibly through PVG, ICN and/or perhaps NRT on AC.

In this case if AI can negotiate a code share through any of these ports, it will certainly streamline the traffic for them.

Like Cage mentioned, mainly VFR traffic and not fussed about making one stop connections.

Flying via DXB is actually quite a long way out of the way. It is faster than via Europe but only marginally shorter than HKG. Via PEK is 1000 miles shorter than DXB.

Right now the shortest route to DEL (the main destination for YVR passengers) for current ports is via PEK.

[Vagabond]

Originally Posted by Johnny Aussie

Now that Air India has joined Star Alliance there is a better chance of restarting Canada flights.

However, as for YVR, I think more likely will be code-shares, possibly through PVG, ICN and/or perhaps NRT on AC.

From YVR, AC already codeshares with Jet Airways (9W) on flights to/from India via LHR, however, the outbound layover time is pretty awful (over 9 hours). However, I'd imagine that this arrangement's days are numbered, with AI joining Star Alliance and 9W increasingly being brought into the Etihad fold.

While not technically a codeshare, I see YVR-BOM ticketed on AC & AI (via LHR) come up frequently when I look for flights on this route. The times are pretty convenient also. I'd imagine this would be one of the routes that is eventually/easily converted to a full codeshare, albeit a relatively insignificant one, given the minimal traffic on this route.

[Johnny Aussie]

Originally Posted by Vagabond

From YVR, AC already codeshares with Jet Airways (9W) on flights to/from India via LHR, however, the outbound layover time is pretty awful (over 9 hours). However, I'd imagine that this arrangement's days are numbered, with AI joining Star Alliance and 9W increasingly being brought into the Etihad fold.

While not technically a codeshare, I see YVR-BOM ticketed on AC & AI (via LHR) come up frequently when I look for flights on this route. The times are pretty convenient also. I'd imagine this would be one of the routes that is eventually/easily converted to a full codeshare, albeit a relatively insignificant one, given the minimal traffic on this route.

Yup, its all about DEL from YVR. YVR-BOM traffic is as you say minimal.
I used to travel via Asia to and from YVR to MEL. Mostly now AC direct from SYD or NZ via AKL now that we are pretty Star centric. In the past I've tried most of the via Asia routes. KE, CX, JL (into SYD), CI (into SYD), CA, MU, SQ (back in the day). On some flights more than half of the passengers were connecting on to India and mainly Delhi. I particularly remember CI and CX being very popular.

Latest Stats Canada numbers have the South Asian population of the Lower Mainland at about 300,000.

[Hot Rod]

No chance of the big ugly in Seattle as SEA isn't designed to land/facilitate A380 unlike YVR which is. Emirates is locked with 777 for the SEA route.

Regarding the potential conspiracy against YVR, how then can you explain the federal govt blocking Qatar from a YVR launch or the original Emirates application to YVR long before they settled with SEA. or the india requests that were shot down. You can't tell me there's not a preference for Ottawa to favour YYZ at the expense of YVR, even for Asia not to mention South America (which would have biz traffic out of YVR) in addition to the route being closer for China. ...

Purely YYZ protectionism by the AC monopoly facilitated by the Federal govt.

[casper]

Originally Posted by Hot Rod

No chance of the big ugly in Seattle as SEA isn't designed to land/facilitate A380 unlike YVR which is. Emirates is locked with 777 for the SEA route.

Regarding the potential conspiracy against YVR, how then can you explain the federal govt blocking Qatar from a YVR launch or the original Emirates application to YVR long before they settled with SEA. or the india requests that were shot down. You can't tell me there's not a preference for Ottawa to favour YYZ at the expense of YVR, even for Asia not to mention South America (which would have biz traffic out of YVR) in addition to the route being closer for China. ...

Purely YYZ protectionism by the AC monopoly facilitated by the Federal govt.

I think the answer to your question be found in the following quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Aussie

I used to travel via Asia to and from YVR to MEL. Mostly now AC direct from SYD or NZ via AKL now that we are pretty Star centric. In the past I've tried most of the via Asia routes. KE, CX, JL (into SYD), CI (into SYD), CA, MU, SQ (back in the day). On some flights more than half of the passengers were connecting on to India and mainly Delhi. I particularly remember CI and CX being very popular.

The government understands that the middle east airlines are disruptive to the existing market place. IF they came in seven days a week, we would lose one or two flight to Europe or Asia. Because of open skies the government does not know if it is going to be KLM, BA, CI, CX MU or AC. Is it more important to have a daily to Dubai (where there are very few local passengers terminating or only one operator on the London flight) or it is better to have BA and AC competing on London. The same for Taipei

[DDP]

Originally Posted by casper

I think the answer to your question be found in the following quote:



The government understands that the middle east airlines are disruptive to the existing market place. IF they came in seven days a week, we would lose one or two flight to Europe or Asia. Because of open skies the government does not know if it is going to be KLM, BA, CI, CX MU or AC. Is it more important to have a daily to Dubai (where there are very few local passengers terminating or only one operator on the London flight) or it is better to have BA and AC competing on London. The same for Taipei

If you look at the USA and the UK though who have more open policies towards any foreign carriers there airports handle more people, more incoming tourists, and have bigger impact on local economy. The goal should be to grow the market, if you bring in a new airline/route you aren't automatically stealing from other carriers but helping grow the market.
There are very few local passengers to iceland, but I don't think anyone really cared they came into vancouver or edmonton. Just made getting to Europe cheaper/more competitive.

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by DDP

If you look at the USA and the UK though who have more open policies towards any foreign carriers there airports handle more people, more incoming tourists, and have bigger impact on local economy.
The goal should be to grow the market, if you bring in a new airline/route you aren't automatically stealing from other carriers but helping grow the market.
There are very few local passengers to iceland, but I don't think anyone really cared they came into vancouver or edmonton. Just made getting to Europe cheaper/more competitive.

Try getting that idea into the protectionist Canadian mindset.

[Cage]

Originally Posted by trofirhen

Try getting that idea into the protectionist Canadian mindset.

If the USA and UK knew what the ME3 strategic plan involved, they would have been just as protectionist as Canada. EK in particular relied on early open skies agreements to deploy their market strategy. The more current agreements are hard to negotiate.

[Johnny Aussie]

Whilst perusing for the new YYC-HKG CX Cargo flights I checked YVR's as well.

CX appears to have additional freighters over the next few weeks. Up to 6 next week. Additional extra sections as CX2081. Then 5 per week before back to the usual 3-4 per week.

China Southern also appears to be flying 5 per week.

Along with Korean Air's twice weekly freighters.

All up up to 13 freighters per week to Asia over the next few weeks.

Cargo seems to be on the uplift out of YVR?

[Johnny Aussie]

Icelandair just uploaded its summer 2015 scheds and it shows the YVR flights starting a whole week earlier... First flight scheduled for 6th May. Woo hoo! Go Icelandair!

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by Cage

If the USA and UK knew what the ME3 strategic plan involved, they would have been just as protectionist as Canada. EK in particular relied on early open skies agreements to deploy their market strategy. The more current agreements are hard to negotiate.

I must admit that despite overseas criticism of Canadian protectionism, there have been howls of pain from other countries as to how the M3 (EK in particular) have eaten into their market share. This seems very pronounced in Australia, as an example, where QANTAS seems to have lost a lot of blood.
This does require rethinking of the situation on my part; I just wish YVR had one or two better key destinations in that part of the world. DEL would be a good start.

[DDP]

Originally Posted by Cage

If the USA and UK knew what the ME3 strategic plan involved, they would have been just as protectionist as Canada. EK in particular relied on early open skies agreements to deploy their market strategy. The more current agreements are hard to negotiate.

There policies are open in general, they feel more air traffic means more economic activity. Cities like Boston, Seattle, Houston, Dallas all have one or more of middle eastern carriers and there airports and regions seem content with them.

Qantas has its problems one because mismanagement, and because of government regulations. Qantas has to be owned/run domestically (like air canada) its other competitors that are domestic can be owned internationally, it would be like if West jet was owned by American Airlines. They have a two tier domestic system.

I just feel we have a skewed way of looking of aviation, heavily taxed, very expensive, high regulations - that is going to hurt in long run. Even having 3x to dubai would open it up a little, and shouldn't do anything to other airlines. Tis country opened up iceland and brings new level of competition to Europe, as did KLM where there is little direct traffic from Canada. Dubai also has about 200,000 Brits, and Brits love YVR makes it easier for them to come visit etc when they have week off.

[Denscity]

Originally Posted by Johnny Aussie

Whilst perusing for the new YYC-HKG CX Cargo flights I checked YVR's as well.

CX appears to have additional freighters over the next few weeks. Up to 6 next week. Additional extra sections as CX2081. Then 5 per week before back to the usual 3-4 per week.

China Southern also appears to be flying 5 per week.

Along with Korean Air's twice weekly freighters.

All up up to 13 freighters per week to Asia over the next few weeks.

Cargo seems to be on the uplift out of YVR?

Originally Posted by Johnny Aussie

Icelandair just uploaded its summer 2015 scheds and it shows the YVR flights starting a whole week earlier... First flight scheduled for 6th May. Woo hoo! Go Icelandair!

Wow and awesome!!

[Johnny Aussie]

Good news for the YVR-LHR route. Increased by over 6,600 pax in May to 48,574. That's huge. Up almost 16%. And a quick calc indicates the additional 109 seats per day each way (due to the increase in seats on the high density AC 77W) have been completely absorbed by the market. BA and VS were exactly the same frequencies and a/c type compared to last May.

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/80/airport_data/201405/Table_12_1_Intl_Air_Pax_Traffic_Route_Analysis.csv

[zahav]

Carls Jr. is going to be one of thenew restaurants opening in the A-B Pier expansion