Salt Lake City: Official Development News Thread - Part 3

[EPdesign]

Originally Posted by s.p.hansen

Well, if there's one thing I've some learned today it's that there are at least SOME Mexicans with as bad of a persecution complex as my Mormon persecution complex. So I guess we really aren't that different. Now let us hug.

Thank you

[Old&New]

Originally Posted by s.p.hansen

Well, if there's one thing I've learned today it's that there are at least SOME Mexicans with as bad of a persecution complex as my Mormon persecution complex. So I guess we really aren't that different. Now let us hug.

Religion is a choice, ethnicity is not.

[s.p.hansen]

Originally Posted by Old&New

Religion is a choice, ethnicity is not.

Nothing is a choice while you are kid.

[ToysNoiz]

Originally Posted by s.p.hansen

Nothing is a choice while you are kid.

Unfortunately true. I don't plan on introducing such things to my kids until they can understand and make their own choices.

[Old&New]

Originally Posted by s.p.hansen

Nothing is a choice while you are kid.

Which is why I think it should be illegal for religions to recruit minors. No minor should be able to join, be baptized, make an oath, or whatever it is they do to join a religion. Not until they are at least 18 years of age. Actually make that 21, because brains are still developing and that type of intoxication can stunt someone for life.

[s.p.hansen]

Originally Posted by Old&New

Which is why I think it should be illegal for religions to recruit minors. No minor should be able to join, be baptized, make an oath, or whatever it is they do to join a religion. Not until they are at least 18 years of age. Actually make that 21, because brains are still developing and that type of intoxication can stunt someone for life.

It just comes down to the nature of families. We give parents rights to raise their kids and no matter how hard they try, they mess them up. It's always gonna be that way. People aren't perfect.

[Old&New]

Originally Posted by s.p.hansen

It just comes down to the nature of families. We give parents rights to raise their kids and no matter how hard they try, they mess them up. It's always gonna be that way. People aren't perfect.

True, but a society can improve on the primitive family via good public policy.

[ajiuO]

Originally Posted by Old&New

Which is why I think it should be illegal for religions to recruit minors. No minor should be able to join, be baptized, make an oath, or whatever it is they do to join a religion. Not until they are at least 18 years of age. Actually make that 21, because brains are still developing and that type of intoxication can stunt someone for life.

Yeah.. We should just let the state say exactly how children should be raised.. No parent should be able to instill religous values in children!!! Children belong to the state not their parents!!!

[Old&New]

Originally Posted by ajiuO

Yeah.. We should just let the state say exactly how children should be raised.. No parent should be able to instill religous values in children!!! Children belong to the state not their parents!!!

Parents can still instill religious values in their children, but a child should not be considered a member of any religious institution until age 18, preferably 21. The state should stay out of parenting, but the state should also be concerned with children's rights and the protection of children. Most, if not all religions have proven themselves to be abusive to children. Why these institution still enjoy tax exemption is beyond me. I see them adding no value to society. Quite the opposite actually.

To quote Tim Minchin lyrics from his song "White Wine in the Sun:"

I get freaked out by churches. Some of the hymns that they sing have nice chords, but the lyrics are dodgy. And yes, I have all the usual objections to the miseducation of children who--in tax exempt institutions--are taught to externalize blame, and to feel ashamed, and to judge things as plain right or wrong.

[CountyLemonade]

Originally Posted by Old&New

that type of intoxication can stunt someone for life.

What a bright ray of sunshine you are.

[Old&New]

Originally Posted by CountyLemonade

What a bright ray of sunshine you are.

A bright ray of hope, lighting a path toward logic.

[Scottk]

Originally Posted by jubguy3

Are those mountains the Appalachians? They seem about that far off in denver!

No seriously, they are talkin shit when they say SLC's mountains aren't pretty. Pretty mountains don't require a telescope to see.

haha first that is a very old shot that makes the mountains of denver (and downtown) look especially small. you definitely do not need a telescope to see the mountains from anywhere in the Denver metro area, and I still do not understand why everyone on a forum about urbanism has this strange obsession with mountains. Go to the teton gravity research forums if you like talking about mountains.

and I'm not trying to start an argument here, but I would like to point out that the mountains being so close to SLC are the reason that you guys have terrible smog problems. I would rather have mountains that are a little farther away than have mountains that you can barely see through a gross brown cloud

[Old&New]

Originally Posted by Scottk

haha first that is a very old shot that makes the mountains of denver (and downtown) look especially small. you definitely do not need a telescope to see the mountains from anywhere in the Denver metro area, and I still do not understand why everyone on a forum about urbanism has this strange obsession with mountains. Go to the teton gravity research forums if you like talking about mountains.

and I'm not trying to start an argument here, but I would like to point out that the mountains being so close to SLC are the reason that you guys have terrible smog problems. I would rather have mountains that are a little farther away than have mountains that you can barely see through a gross brown cloud

Haha, sorry, I didn't realize the Rocky Mountains had changed that much since the time the picture was taken.

The Wasatch and Oquirrh mountains don't create the problem, the refineries and automobiles do. This will eventually change. In the meantime, it's great to have the mountains nearby so one can escape into them for the few weeks out of each year when the smog is actually a problem.

[Stenar]

When I was in downtown Denver, the mountains looked 2 inches tall WAY off on the horizon. You do need a telescope to see them from Denver.

Originally Posted by Scottk

haha first that is a very old shot that makes the mountains of denver (and downtown) look especially small. you definitely do not need a telescope to see the mountains from anywhere in the Denver metro area...

[Scottk]

haha ok guys. I am just arguing for the sake of arguing I know city vs city discussions aren't allowed but I do enjoy a little playful arguing and I certainly don't mind when other cities make fun of denver.

I will admit the mountains in SLC are closer, and look very dramatic in the winter. they are very pretty.

What is the wildfire risk like for the areas developed close to the mountains?

[s.p.hansen]

Originally Posted by Scottk

haha ok guys. I am just arguing for the sake of arguing I know city vs city discussions aren't allowed but I do enjoy a little playful arguing and I certainly don't mind when other cities make fun of denver.

I will admit the mountains in SLC are closer, and look very dramatic in the winter. they are very pretty.

What is the wildfire risk like for the areas developed close to the mountains?

Wildfires aren't too scary, it's more the fault line that may kill us in our beautiful unreinforced mansonry dwellings. Treasure us and always remember to tell us that you love us, because we could die in a 6.5 earthquake (so I've been told).

[ajiuO]

Originally Posted by Old&New

Parents can still instill religious values in their children, but a child should not be considered a member of any religious institution until age 18, preferably 21. The state should stay out of parenting, but the state should also be concerned with children's rights and the protection of children. Most, if not all religions have proven themselves to be abusive to children. Why these institution still enjoy tax exemption is beyond me. I see them adding no value to society. Quite the opposite actually.

To quote Tim Minchin lyrics from his song "White Wine in the Sun:"

Baptizing a child isn't violating any rights.. It really doesn't make any difference.. Unless you are suggestion that a parent shouldn't be able to take a kid to church and teach them what they believe.. Because that is what will shape them.. Not being baptized... I was baptized but never attended church. I became an atheist.. And could have left my church at any time.. But I didn't because it doesn't matter.. I will probably be a member of the episcopal church till I die.. But I know that I can leave any time I want.. Just as any child can once they become an adult.. We don't need the government to control every aspect of our lives...

[DMTower]

Originally Posted by ajiuO

Baptizing a child isn't violating any rights.. It really doesn't make any difference.. Unless you are suggestion that a parent shouldn't be able to take a kid to church and teach them what they believe.. Because that is what will shape them.. Not being baptized... I was baptized but never attended church. I became an atheist.. And could have left my church at any time.. But I didn't because it doesn't matter.. I will probably be a member of the episcopal church till I die.. But I know that I can leave any time I want.. Just as any child can once they become an adult.. We don't need the government to control every aspect of our lives...

But a child can't magically erase the lasting scars that religion can inflict, which I think is his point.

[Old&New]

Originally Posted by ajiuO

Baptizing a child isn't violating any rights.. It really doesn't make any difference.. Unless you are suggestion that a parent shouldn't be able to take a kid to church and teach them what they believe.. Because that is what will shape them.. Not being baptized... I was baptized but never attended church. I became an atheist.. And could have left my church at any time.. But I didn't because it doesn't matter.. I will probably be a member of the episcopal church till I die.. But I know that I can leave any time I want.. Just as any child can once they become an adult.. We don't need the government to control every aspect of our lives...

I did not suggest that parents couldn't take their children to religious so-called "services." (although that's not such a bad suggestion )

By not technically being a member, a child knows s/he can leave the religion at any time, as they have not yet made any commitments. Then when they're an adult, they can make an informed decision without the psychology of previous commitments made as a child.

Making it illegal for religions to recruit children or list them among their membership roles would help protect children from becoming psychologically locked into cult institutions.

But this may only be a first step to help the problem. As DMTower stated, "a child can't magically erase the lasting scars that religion can inflict..." So perhaps children shouldn't be allowed at all, and religious groups should be required to check for ID at the door. And if they violate the age restriction by allowing in a minor, they'd get shut down. Yes, now I'm actually suggesting it ajiuO.

But even after all of this, people would still have freedom of religion, like people have the freedom to drink (sans prohibition), but only after a certain age.

[Boiseguy]

Originally Posted by Old&New

I did not suggest that parents couldn't take their children to religious so-called "services." (although that's not such a bad suggestion )

By not technically being a member, a child knows s/he can leave the religion at any time, as they have not yet made any commitments. Then when they're an adult, they can make an informed decision without the psychology of previous commitments made as a child.

Making it illegal for religions to recruit children or list them among their membership roles, would help protect children from becoming psychologically locked into cult institutions.

But this may only be a first step to help the problem. As DMTower stated, "a child can't magically erase the lasting scars that religion can inflict..." So perhaps children shouldn't be allowed at all, and religious groups should be required to check for ID at the door. And if they violate the age restriction by allowing in a minor, they should be shut down.

Even after all of this, people will still have freedom of religion.

Stop undermining LDS membership numbers!!! there's a reason why we're suppose to have 10 kids… to multiply and replenish the tithing fund… er I mean earth
btw.. they're my kids.. if I want to parade them in front of the congregation and whisper to them what to say in the mic.. that's my right!! it's not indoctrination and most certainly isn't abuse!