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  #5821  
Old Posted Jul 7, 2014, 5:13 PM
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brankrom brankrom is offline
 
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2008 people is about 1% of the population not a bad deal, but the outreach and advertising aside from the initial weekend of offering has been non existent. Maybe an alternative would be a .001 property tax increase in SLC for UTA operations subsidies specifically for UTA in Salt Lake City and that would include a Hive pass. Tying operations subsidies to the sales tax creates a boom and bust funding mechanism that kills service in a poor economy right when public services and infrastructure are needed most.

UTA needs better service in SLC to get people to use transit. Stopping service on some lines at 6:30 and only having 30 minute service on those same lines makes it so it is a commuting tool only, even in the city. I use UTA just about every day and would prefer to use it more but the level of service — outside of a 9 to 5 commuting time frame. I'm not a student but to have a major line servicing the UofU (220) terminate at 7:40 pm and all lines serving SLC to terminate by 9:45. Lines 9 and 17 terminate ant 6:30 pm Line 21 terminates at 8:30 as does 205. 200 terminates at 9:30 and 217 terminates at 9:30 but runs only hourly from 6:30. That's — service for everything outside of Trax and Frontrunner. Want to see a movie or go to a bar, or shop for groceries after work? You're SOL if you want to get home on transit. UTA has a lot going for as far as coverage area, but actual level of service is one of the worst systems I've experienced.

To have a usable system people need to actually have service and having service for things outside of commuting is a big part of that.
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  #5822  
Old Posted Jul 7, 2014, 6:02 PM
bob rulz bob rulz is offline
 
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Originally Posted by justiny View Post
Now who's the adult?
I don't know. You tell me.

Do you really think your bitching and moaning is helping the problem at all?

If YOU don't like HIS posts, then YOU can ignore them, and let the rest of us talk about all the — that you want us to talk about. You're just fueling the fire.
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  #5823  
Old Posted Jul 7, 2014, 6:33 PM
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Originally Posted by justiny View Post
Go pound sand, —, and look at my logical and reasonable response to jubguy3's forum attention-— "look at me" antics.

You don't need to publicly fight his battles for him like he's a child. It's called the internet. If you don't like the conversation, then close your browser or turn off your computer.

Now who's the adult?

Honestly, this forum has been littered with — over the past month that no one wants to contribute intelligent conversation anymore. I miss T-Mac's photos and the lively conversations. What I don't miss is what I'm writing about.

It's almost like Urbanboy is back. What a shame.
Oh my — god. I changed my posting habits. I left for a few days. Get the hell over it - an adult does not hold on to petty things like that for that long. I'm sorry, if there is a post that has an idea that you think is stupid, you an stenar can tell me to delete it. Otherwise, it's long gone and you need to get over yourself. I'm not the one putting on a show anymore. You're the one dancing around, complaining about each pronoun and modifier I use and then whining to everybody else. Just. Get. Over. It.
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  #5824  
Old Posted Jul 7, 2014, 6:36 PM
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Originally Posted by bob rulz View Post
I don't know. You tell me.

Do you really think your bitching and moaning is helping the problem at all?

If YOU don't like HIS posts, then YOU can ignore them, and let the rest of us talk about all the — that you want us to talk about. You're just fueling the fire.
And what fire are you fueling with this post?

Looks like I'll be adding a lot of idiot forum trolls to my ignore list.

How disappointing this forum has become.
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  #5825  
Old Posted Jul 7, 2014, 6:44 PM
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Originally Posted by brankrom View Post
2008 people is about 1% of the population not a bad deal, but the outreach and advertising aside from the initial weekend of offering has been non existent. Maybe an alternative would be a .001 property tax increase in SLC for UTA operations subsidies specifically for UTA in Salt Lake City and that would include a Hive pass. Tying operations subsidies to the sales tax creates a boom and bust funding mechanism that kills service in a poor economy right when public services and infrastructure are needed most.

UTA needs better service in SLC to get people to use transit. Stopping service on some lines at 6:30 and only having 30 minute service on those same lines makes it so it is a commuting tool only, even in the city. I use UTA just about every day and would prefer to use it more but the level of service — outside of a 9 to 5 commuting time frame. I'm not a student but to have a major line servicing the UofU (220) terminate at 7:40 pm and all lines serving SLC to terminate by 9:45. Lines 9 and 17 terminate ant 6:30 pm Line 21 terminates at 8:30 as does 205. 200 terminates at 9:30 and 217 terminates at 9:30 but runs only hourly from 6:30. That's — service for everything outside of Trax and Frontrunner. Want to see a movie or go to a bar, or shop for groceries after work? You're SOL if you want to get home on transit. UTA has a lot going for as far as coverage area, but actual level of service is one of the worst systems I've experienced.

To have a usable system people need to actually have service and having service for things outside of commuting is a big part of that.
Agreed. My commute is to northwest downtown from Harvard Yale and it takes me 1 hour to get there. This is why we a. Need the yellow line to the airport as opposed to the SLIH because there are residents who can't get across town without making the 12 minute transfer at courthouse (I can commute from draper town center to arena faster than from 13th and 13th... That's not right, at all.) - commuters are already served by the 2 and 2X. b. expansion of the east side and avenue transit system that allows better travel (like in countylemonade's awesome map, having the 13 and the 504 - people may want to get to south temple without having to go to virginia street or downtown, but regular 200 routes can't get extended in to the avenues c. Labeling of bus stops downtown. Does route "fre far zoan" stop here or do I have to walk up to the tiny information slip to know? Planners dropped the ball on that one. Route flags need labeling downtown because I think few people know about the presence of the buses and therefore stay on the Main Street to gateway thingy and won't leave because it's simply not branded. d. Granary service from the streetcar when demand and growth finally picks up. 9 runs in the southeasternmost corner of the southeasternmost part of the granary. That's not good.
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  #5826  
Old Posted Jul 7, 2014, 6:53 PM
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CountyLemonade CountyLemonade is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brankrom View Post
2008 people is about 1% of the population not a bad deal, but the outreach and advertising aside from the initial weekend of offering has been non existent. Maybe an alternative would be a .001 property tax increase in SLC for UTA operations subsidies specifically for UTA in Salt Lake City and that would include a Hive pass. Tying operations subsidies to the sales tax creates a boom and bust funding mechanism that kills service in a poor economy right when public services and infrastructure are needed most.

UTA needs better service in SLC to get people to use transit. Stopping service on some lines at 6:30 and only having 30 minute service on those same lines makes it so it is a commuting tool only, even in the city. I use UTA just about every day and would prefer to use it more but the level of service — outside of a 9 to 5 commuting time frame. I'm not a student but to have a major line servicing the UofU (220) terminate at 7:40 pm and all lines serving SLC to terminate by 9:45. Lines 9 and 17 terminate ant 6:30 pm Line 21 terminates at 8:30 as does 205. 200 terminates at 9:30 and 217 terminates at 9:30 but runs only hourly from 6:30. That's — service for everything outside of Trax and Frontrunner. Want to see a movie or go to a bar, or shop for groceries after work? You're SOL if you want to get home on transit. UTA has a lot going for as far as coverage area, but actual level of service is one of the worst systems I've experienced.

To have a usable system people need to actually have service and having service for things outside of commuting is a big part of that.
You're completely right. (The 220 ends service at 11 pm and the 217 at midnight but other than that, yeah.) As I've said, to me the biggest travesty is how pathetic bus service in the Avenues is. But between 2007 and 2009 Salt Lake City had much, much better service: take a look at this link to get a sense of what timetables looked like. The 21 ran well past midnight. MAX on 3500 South ran until 2 in the morning. And so on.

I spent some time in DC, where the transit system there was completely useable for all occasions. Using a car not once crossed my mind. If Salt Lake is to tackle its ghastly pollution problem, the city proper at the very least must have transit that is world-class. It's a very tall order for a city our size, but it must be done.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jubguy3 View Post
Agreed. My commute is to northwest downtown from Harvard Yale and it takes me 1 hour to get there.
Out of curiosity, how is this possible? I'm not doubting you—just in wistful disbelief that such a trip can take so long.
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  #5827  
Old Posted Jul 7, 2014, 7:11 PM
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Originally Posted by CountyLemonade View Post
You're completely right. (The 220 ends service at 11 pm and the 217 at midnight but other than that, yeah.) As I've said, to me the biggest travesty is how pathetic bus service in the Avenues is. But between 2007 and 2009 Salt Lake City had much, much better service: take a look at this link to get a sense of what timetables looked like. The 21 ran well past midnight. MAX on 3500 South ran until 2 in the morning. And so on.

I spent some time in DC, where the transit system there was completely useable for all occasions. Using a car not once crossed my mind. If Salt Lake is to tackle its ghastly pollution problem, the city proper at the very least must have transit that is world-class. It's a very tall order for a city our size, but it must be done.



Out of curiosity, how is this possible? I'm not doubting you—just in wistful disbelief that such a trip can take so long.
Well, it's shorter in the mornings because a friend drives me to the stadium but I'll show my hour long afternoon commute.

1. Get on at either arena or Guadalupe, wait for train.
2. Take train from either station to courthouse.
3. Wait for red line at courthouse for 12 minutes.
4. Take train up university boulevard for 15 minutes to the stadium.
5. Wait for bus for 15 minutes.
6. Get on bus for 10 and get off, walk half a block uphill towards house.

That takes me an hour. Two things would make my commute much shorter - stadium to have dedicated concourse where a realigned and 15 minute 220 would stop and b. the university airport crosstown TRAX.

http://web.archive.org/web/20080821234125/http://www.rideuta.com/images/08julysystemmap.jpg
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  #5828  
Old Posted Jul 7, 2014, 7:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jubguy3 View Post
Well, it's shorter in the mornings because a friend drives me to the stadium but I'll show my hour long afternoon commute.

1. Get on at either arena or Guadalupe, wait for train.
2. Take train from either station to courthouse.
3. Wait for red line at courthouse for 12 minutes.
4. Take train up university boulevard for 15 minutes to the stadium.
5. Wait for bus for 15 minutes.
6. Get on bus for 10 and get off, walk half a block uphill towards house.

That takes me an hour. Two things would make my commute much shorter - stadium to have dedicated concourse where a realigned and 15 minute 220 would stop and b. the university airport crosstown TRAX.

http://web.archive.org/web/20080821234125/http://www.rideuta.com/images/08julysystemmap.jpg
Gross. Harvard/Yale isn't a bastion of transit usage—but just because it's a wealthy area doesn't mean it can't be. Cities all over the world with fantastic transit have wealthy people using it (although this is usually accompanied with difficult parking situations, something Salt Lake unfortunately won't have for decades if even that).

Would it be faster to just take the 220 from Harvard/Yale to the west side of City Creek and walk or change to TRAX for a couple stops?
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  #5829  
Old Posted Jul 7, 2014, 7:36 PM
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Originally Posted by CountyLemonade View Post
Gross. Harvard/Yale isn't a bastion of transit usage—but just because it's a wealthy area doesn't mean it can't be. Cities all over the world with fantastic transit have wealthy people using it (although this is usually accompanied with difficult parking situations, something Salt Lake unfortunately won't have for decades if even that).

Would it be faster to just take the 220 from Harvard/Yale to the west side of City Creek and walk or change to TRAX for a couple stops?
The transfer can be sketchy at times and I've actually been on the train seeing a judge memorial bus (the one that comes after my 220) (in the afternoon it still gets me home the same time because of 30 minute service) about to stop at city center. It becomes no more fast to take 220 or even transfer to 209 to get to downtown.
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  #5830  
Old Posted Jul 7, 2014, 7:53 PM
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I have felt, based upon experience in Denver, that passes are not optimally priced and, more importantly, time stamped.

Up front, I do need to go spend a work day riding the SLC system before applying Denver lessons, but, I will try.

Between about 9:30a and about 3:00p the ridership load lowers drastically. After about 6:00p Sunday through Thursday (unless the Rockies, Avalanche, or the Nuggests are playing) traffic loads drop also.

Something like a hive pass for $30/month would be great if it only covered say 9:00a to 5:00p daily, and, was marketed to students, say 15 and over, seniors, younger retirees, and, to the physically disenfranchised directly.

The idea is great, but, the marketing approaching needs polishing.
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  #5831  
Old Posted Jul 7, 2014, 7:57 PM
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s.p.hansen s.p.hansen is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wizened Variations View Post
Something like a hive pass for $30/month would be great if it only covered say 9:00a to 5:00p daily, and, was marketed to students, say 15 and over, seniors, younger retirees, and, to the physically disenfranchised directly.
Most of the students go to the University of Utah and they already have transit passes included in the tuition.
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  #5832  
Old Posted Jul 7, 2014, 9:15 PM
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I live in Harvard Yale too and my commute to and from One Utah is around 40 minutes. My commute in the is the number 9 to 900 S 200 West and because of padded time we sit along the side of the road for a few minutes and I watch my Green line train pass in front of the bus while we are waiting at the light. The next train serving Gallivan is 10 minutes later. Depending on my mood and disposition I may take the Red line to Courthouse and walk to One Utah, but time wise the walk from Couthouse to Gallivan or waiting for the next train to Gallivan is sixes. Coming home the times are about 10 minutes longer. It just shouldn't take 40 minutes to go 3.5 miles. I can walk it in just about an hour. I catch the 9 at 6:55 am and get to work at 7:35. ridiculous. Taking the 9 or 17 to the South Campus station adds 10 more minutes because again the train leaves just prior to the bus getting there so I wait 15 minutes to catch the next train and end up on the same green line as if I waited another 30 minutes for the next number 9 down the hill to 900 S 200 West.

I can totally see it taking a hour to go from northwest downtown to Harvard Yale. Timing transfers on UTA is second worst thing about UTA the first being the pitiful evening coverage.
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  #5833  
Old Posted Jul 7, 2014, 9:28 PM
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Exclamation

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Originally Posted by brankrom View Post
I live in Harvard Yale too and my commute to and from One Utah is around 40 minutes. My commute in the is the number 9 to 900 S 200 West and because of padded time we sit along the side of the road for a few minutes and I watch my Green line train pass in front of the bus while we are waiting at the light. The next train serving Gallivan is 10 minutes later. Depending on my mood and disposition I may take the Red line to Courthouse and walk to One Utah, but time wise the walk from Couthouse to Gallivan or waiting for the next train to Gallivan is sixes. Coming home the times are about 10 minutes longer. It just shouldn't take 40 minutes to go 3.5 miles. I can walk it in just about an hour. I catch the 9 at 6:55 am and get to work at 7:35. ridiculous. Taking the 9 or 17 to the South Campus station adds 10 more minutes because again the train leaves just prior to the bus getting there so I wait 15 minutes to catch the next train and end up on the same green line as if I waited another 30 minutes for the next number 9 down the hill to 900 S 200 West.

I can totally see it taking a hour to go from northwest downtown to Harvard Yale. Timing transfers on UTA is second worst thing about UTA the first being the pitiful evening coverage.
Agreed. UTA needs to stop massaging west valley with transit and start fixing the outrageously long times to get from the east side to downtown. Someone from draper having the same commute time as me is unbelievable.
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  #5834  
Old Posted Jul 8, 2014, 2:22 AM
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Part of me is really glad that I'm a University student right now. My daily commute from my Sugar House apartment up to my job on campus is usually 12-14 minutes. Compared to the normal 8 minutes of driving.

I rather love where I live.

Although, I can relate because my planning internship in the morning is at Taylorsville City Hall and via transit it takes almost an hour and fifteen minutes. So until my car finally gives up the ghost, I usually opt to drive for 15 minutes there.
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  #5835  
Old Posted Jul 8, 2014, 2:40 AM
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CountyLemonade, the previous comment I made had a link to the old 2008 bus map -- why not institute the fastbus service that was cut back in to your map? Fastbus was a good program but it got cut too much - it really was the bus alternative to rail, almost like the premium bus that is primed for the east side, except without the amenities.
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  #5836  
Old Posted Jul 8, 2014, 3:50 AM
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http://www.rideuta.com/news/2014/07/470/

This article seems to indicate that 470 will get split.

Why? People who use it appreciate that they dont have to transfer. Splitting it makes everything more complicated.
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  #5837  
Old Posted Jul 8, 2014, 3:58 AM
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Article about the Univ TRAX corridor and it's traffic impacts to the corridor

Quote:
Light Rail Reduces Auto, Gasoline Use and CO2 Emissions
U STUDY QUANTIFIES IMPACTS OF RAIL LINE ON EXISTING TRAFFIC CORRIDOR


July 3, 2014 – For the first time, researchers have shown that installing light rail on an existing traffic corridor not only gets people out of their cars, but reduces congestion and air pollution.

In the study, planners at the University of Utah measured impacts of a new light rail line in Salt Lake City (University Line) on an existing major thoroughfare (400/500 South). Their analysis showed that traffic near the University has fallen to levels not seen since the 1980s, even as the number of students, faculty and staff at the U has increased, and the commercial district along the corridor has expanded.

“This is the first study to document important effects of light rail transit on traffic volumes,” said Reid Ewing, professor of city and metropolitan planning at the University of Utah and lead author on the study. “Since the University TRAX line opened, there has been increased development in the 400/500 South travel corridor, yet traffic on the street has actually declined. Our calculations show that without the University TRAX line, there would be at least 9,300 more cars per day on 400/500 South, and possibly as many as 21,700 additional cars. The line avoids gridlock, as well as saves an additional 13 tons of toxic air pollutants. This is important knowledge for shaping future transportation policies.”

Andrew Gruber, executive director of the Wasatch Front Regional Council, which has been responsible for coordinating transportation planning in the Salt Lake and Ogden areas since 1973 said, “This study further demonstrates the value of public transportation in helping people reach their destinations, reduce traffic and spur economic development. The findings are significant for local governments across our region as they consider the future of transit in their community.”

The report—which validates assumptions widely used in travel demand models used in community planning—was issued recently by the National Institute for Transportation and Communities, and has been accepted for publication in the “Journal of Public Transportation” later this year. The report is available for download here.

Ewing worked with Guang Tian, a doctoral student in city and metropolitan planning at the U.

How the study was conducted

A “quasi-experimental” research design was used for the study, which is different from a traditional research design because it is not possible to randomly assign subjects to a treatment or control group in this setting. To compensate for lack of randomization, a variety of matched samples—traffic on parallel streets in the corridor, transit ridership, development and related traffic—was used to confirm the results.

In this case, the first treatment is a 2.3 mile extension of TRAX from downtown Salt Lake City to the University of Utah stadium built in 2001. Comparing data from 2001 and 2002 provided a way to study impacts on the travel corridor before and after construction. Likewise, the 1.5 mile extension from the stadium to the University Medical Center, begun in 2002 and completed in 2003, provided another comparison—before treatment in 2003 and after in 2004.

Annual average daily traffic (AADT) on 400/500 South decreased by 9,300 vehicles as net transit ridership increased 7,200 in 2002 over 2001 before the TRAX line was built. Researchers attributed the changes to the TRAX extension because AADT increased only slightly on two parallel streets, it stayed essentially flat on others.

Considering growth in the area and coincident traffic impacts produced a surprising finding.

“We assumed that without TRAX, traffic on 400 South would have increased as a function of development in the area,” said Ewing. “Instead, we found just the opposite. As the corridor became more developed over the decade—concurrent with the opening of TRAX—traffic actually declined.”

Total development, as measured by building floor area, increased by nearly 13 percent between 1999 and 2009, from 50.6 million square feet to 57.0 million square feet. Comparing the estimated traffic volume that would be associated with that growth, and the actual traffic volumes measured in 2009 showed an estimated decrease in average daily traffic by 21,700 trips.

Applying Environmental Protection Agency calculations for fuel consumption and average emissions for passenger cars to that number of trips, TRAX contributes to saving 1,300 gallons gasoline and avoiding 26,100 pounds CO2 emissions daily. On an annual basis, this means saving 487,700 gallons of gasoline and 9.5 million pounds of CO2.

“An important caveat is that while the results of this study are revealing and important for future planning, we cannot guarantee that light rail transit would have the same effect on traffic at other locations,” Ewing concluded. “The study area in Salt Lake City is unique, with the university as a major employer is the area and students and staff having free access to transit. The comparison group in this study is not identical to the experimental group, but we believe the estimates established to test our hypotheses support the results.”

The study was done in coordination with the Utah Transit Authority (UTA) and the Utah Department of Transportation (UDOT), and is available for download at http://otrec.us/project/611/.

“”UDOT found the results from the ‘Report on the Effect of University TRAX on traffic along 400/500 South’ interesting,” said Jeff Harris, planning director for UDOT. “While it is difficult to make direct causal connections from the results of one study, these results, along with the ridership on the University TRAX line and the UTA reported transit mode share to the University, do indicate that TRAX is having a positive impact. UDOT believes in the importance of and is committed to developing an integrated transportation system. We look forward to working with our partners in the future to conduct this type of research and help build a body of knowledge about the positive effects of implementing integrated transportation solutions.”

Making TRAX in Utah

The first light rail line in Salt Lake was opened in 1999, and an extension from the downtown to the University of Utah was completed in 2001with a further expansion to the University Medical Center in 2003. Several additions have been made system-wide since that time. The current study focused on the University extension because ample time has passed to measure its full effect, and because it has the highest ridership in the system.

“The University LRT Line was developed through a strong partnership between Utah Department of Transportation, Utah Transit Authority, Salt Lake City, University of Utah, Wasatch Front Regional Council, Federal Transit Administration, the Salt Lake Chamber and area businesses,” noted Michael Allegra, UTA general manager. “The University LRT Line in 2001 has resulted in stabilized traffic flows, increased economic investment in the corridor and significant increases in transit ridership.”

The study was supported by the National Institute for Transportation and Communities.
I don't like using university boulevard because it's timed so badly... I'd attribute part (very small) to the timing of university boulevard
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  #5838  
Old Posted Jul 8, 2014, 8:06 AM
bob rulz bob rulz is offline
 
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Could we get a link to that article?
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  #5839  
Old Posted Jul 8, 2014, 4:07 PM
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Originally Posted by bob rulz View Post
Could we get a link to that article?
http://unews.utah.edu/news_releases/light-rail-reduces-auto-gasoline-use-and-co2-emissions/
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  #5840  
Old Posted Jul 8, 2014, 5:31 PM
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CountyLemonade CountyLemonade is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jubguy3 View Post
CountyLemonade, the previous comment I made had a link to the old 2008 bus map -- why not institute the fastbus service that was cut back in to your map? Fastbus was a good program but it got cut too much - it really was the bus alternative to rail, almost like the premium bus that is primed for the east side, except without the amenities.
I actually added a few Fast Bus routes: 304, 306, and 344, as well as reincarnating the 346. I also kept the 307 and the 320. The old 356 has essentially been replaced by the new 256. And I would hesitate to restore the old 347 as I think a high-frequency local bus taking you to FrontRunner (an electrified, high-frequency FrontRunner) is far superior. As for the other Fast Bus routes, I think most of them make a lot of sense. I'll add them in.
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