Millennium Line - Evergreen Extension | Completed

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by queetz@home

The new roof is fine, no issues whatsoever with it. It shelters people from the rain, then it has more than served its purpose. Complaints are unjustified and absolutely no needed.

WRT video, I see what dpogue meant about the wooden forms being taken out. I guess its not super visible since its way up there, but they are looking good. I can't wait for the rest to be taken down. I'm guessing they should be by the time the gantry reaches Gatineau Place, which should be third week or end of July.

I also strongly suspect once the forms are taken out of the Lougheed steel guideways, all concerns about it being ugly due to it not being basketweave will go away.

I don't think there was too many complaints abut the missing basketweave, but in my case, the 'ramp to nowhere' inbound track that was done during the original construction of the station (a remnant of the elevation change needed for the former basketweave) should have been removed and rebuilt at the same elevation as the 'outbound' track.
That would have allowed for a new crossover to be installed to let trains arriving from PoCo to use either the shuttle platform (the unfinshed 3rd platform) or the Vancouver-bound main platform.

That would also eliminate the need for 'wrong railing' between Lougheed and Burquitlam, and the need for every train arriving or departing Burquitlam to cross in front of another train.

I suspect the costs involved in the extra engineering needed to have each track on different curving elevations between Lougheed and North Road was more than having the new tracks properly engineered to be at the same elevation through the curve. Certainly a single beam holding two tracks (a la North Road) is cheaper than two beams with each holding a single track - even when using steel beam construction supporting a concrete trackbed.

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

I really don't see what is so offensive about it.

It is a metal roof.

Is it beautiful or a work of art, no, but is it worth these hilarious drama queen reactions, no.

I am actually going to take pictures of the train stations around here. Japan is rated #1 in the world for its rail network by the UN. The stations around here are much worse aesthetically than any of our skytrain stations IMO. They are extremely basic, but so are most train stations I have been to in the world.

Only a small minority of train stations are "works of art" (often in nations that blow money on showpieces while many other aspects of their built environment are in desperate need of attention, nudge nudge Russia, or have totalitarian governments that can save lots of money on much lower labour and safety costs, nudge nudge China).

Here's what $4 Billion will buy:

A Calatrava - designed station:


Acres of Marble to walk on through the station:


Marble on the platforms and walls too:


BTW: Price does not include new trains, new tracks, or other commuter rail expansion.
Just the shiny new station.

[Rico]

Originally Posted by jsbertram

Here's what $4 Billion will buy:

A Calatrava - designed station:


Acres of Marble to walk on through the station:


Marble on the platforms and walls too:


BTW: Price does not include new trains, new tracks, or other commuter rail expansion.
Just the shiny new station.

I know you were being sarcastic, but I have to say that the reviews for the World Trade station are that it is not terribly user friendly as well....so for the same price you could get the UBC line and the Surrey line (or lines depending on your preference)......that said I am not sure how user friendly Lougheed station will be either if you are transferring....to me it looks fine, minimizing the up/down motions while transferring is much more important.

[queetz@home]

I think the saner heads are in consensus that there is absolutely nothing wrong with the Lougheed Station. As I mentioned in another thread somewhere in a completely different topic, the ones driving to make the Lougheed Station a work of art, or complaining about the silliest things like column pad heights, the lack of basketweaves and so on ultimately has another variation of the "Simcity mentality".

It would be like when you play Simcity, specifically Simcity 4 Rush Hour and download stuff from Simtropolis, in this case one of those pretty player designed elevated rail stations, then just plop them instead of considering costs, functionality, capacity and so on. But again, life isn't like a city simulator computer game and such nonsense doesn't apply to the real world, especially here in Metro Vancouver where transit is a bigger contentious issue than crime, economy, jobs, housing and so on. You can't just wish for a beautiful station and —! There it is. You gotta consider a bajillion factors.

Lougheed Station is the way it is for a reason. Just accept it and be happy that it can perform its intended function.

[Prometheus]

Originally Posted by queetz@home

I think the saner heads are in consensus that there is absolutely nothing wrong with the Lougheed Station...

Lougheed Station is the way it is for a reason. Just accept it and be happy that it can perform its intended function.

So, saner people maintain that Lougheed Station (with its vestigial hump and split platforms that require passengers to travel down, over and up in order to transfer within the same station) is a station without flaws?

Forget about quality of materials or station aesthetics. There are some functional inefficiencies (i.e., flaws) in this station which could have been avoided with greater intelligence and foresight (or better resolved with some willingness).

It's true that these flaws (and their chosen resolution) are now irrevocable and the station will function. But it's not a mark of sanity to pretend these flaws do not exist and forfeit an opportunity to learn from them. After all, if there is "absolutely nothing wrong" with Lougheed Station, as you maintain, then it is a template to copy in the future, not a lesson on how to plan better in order to create a more efficient station.

Lougheed Station is indeed the way it is for a reason. But some of those reasons are the product of unnecessary mistakes in planning. I think saner people are those who can accept the station while still acknowledging the station's flaws and welcoming conversations about them.

[Jebby]

Originally Posted by queetz@home

I think the saner heads are in consensus that there is absolutely nothing wrong with the Lougheed Station.

I don't think there's anything "wrong" with how the station is being built. I just think it's ugly. Not just the new platform, which I think could have been much nicer for roughly the same amount of money, but I find the original roof to be ugly as well and could have been much more aesthetically pleasing as well as giving better shelter from the outdoors for roughly the same amount of money.

I really like the elevated stations on the Canada Line, even though they are no works of art. They are functional, cheap, and pleasant.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by Prometheus

I think saner people are those who can accept the station while still acknowledging the station's flaws and welcoming conversations about them.

I think saner people would acknowledge that we should be very thankful if these "flaws" you speak of are the worst problems we encounter with the Evergreen line.

[queetz@home]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

I think saner people would acknowledge that we should be very thankful if these "flaws" you speak of are the worst problems we encounter with the Evergreen line.

Pretty much this! As someone who has been following the Evergreen Line since the early 90s when I moved to Canada, nothing can be worse than the Evergreen Line not being built at all.

There is a reason why strongly supported the Evergreen LRT during the Kingsbury days, the key word is desperation. This line getting off the ground was near impossible given the resistance from the Province regardless of political party, and has been used as a ploy just to get votes during election time for a verylong time.

I'm thankful that its finally getting built after decades of waiting, and it being a Skytrain extension is a bonus. I don't care what it looks like, I'd even accept third world country ugliness as long as its there.

Forget about quality of materials or station aesthetics. There are some functional inefficiencies (i.e., flaws) in this station which could have been avoided with greater intelligence and foresight (or better resolved with some willingness).

That would be nice but if you look at the previous page alone, you would notice that the complaints are entirely aesthetics alone, rather than functional inefficiencies. I do have an issue with the wrong railing and the reasons behind it (to cater to the most stupidest commuters seemingly unique to Metro Vancouver). And yet I get shot down (even by mods via passive aggressiveness) when I get passionate about it...

[officedweller]

Originally Posted by jsbertram

I suspect the costs involved in the extra engineering needed to have each track on different curving elevations between Lougheed and North Road was more than having the new tracks properly engineered to be at the same elevation through the curve. Certainly a single beam holding two tracks (a la North Road) is cheaper than two beams with each holding a single track - even when using steel beam construction supporting a concrete trackbed.

They would have still had to have two beams through the curve
because SkyTrain uses superelevation to bank each track through the curve (unlike Canada Line).

i.e See the curve south over North Road.
You can see the separation of the guideways where the catwalk railing separates into two in this pic.

Originally Posted by madog222

[queetz@home]

I strongly suspect that most of the Lougheed steel guideway curves will look like the existing south of North Road curves shown in madog222 pic. Essentialy they seem as one big curve seen from most angles except when viewing underneath, just like the existing south of North Road cuves. They kinda do already with the scaffolding in place.

Pics from Yellow Fever in SSC

Originally Posted by Yellow Fever

New updates



close to Lougheed Mall


Flickr 上 Yellow Fever @ SkyscraperCity 的 IMG_2432


Flickr 上 Yellow Fever @ SkyscraperCity 的 IMG_2431

Originally Posted by Yellow Fever

Flickr 上 Yellow Fever @ SkyscraperCity 的 IMG_2425


Flickr 上 Yellow Fever @ SkyscraperCity 的 IMG_2424

The only portion that will look like separate guideways would be the ones immediately after the existing Lougheed station guideways up to the White Spot.

[officedweller]

When the aea around the Sears outlet is redeveloped, no one will even notice.

[mr.A]

What is is holding up the tunnel boring machine?
No progress for weeks!

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by officedweller

They would have still had to have two beams through the curve
because SkyTrain uses superelevation to bank each track through the curve (unlike Canada Line).

i.e See the curve south over North Road.
You can see the separation of the guideways where the catwalk railing separates into two in this pic.

And your picture shows quite plainly that the two-beam construction would have allowed for the tracks to be at the same relative elevation (beside each other).

No reason why the new curve to North Road couldn't have been built that way after the ramp to no-where was removed and replaced with a non-elevating trackbed too.

And the Skytrain flyover of HWY1 shows that dual beams aren't necessary. even with super-elevation:

https://www.google.com/maps/@49.242146,-...3m4!1e1!3m2!1sOXVk74PFODrv9gFdYyd_kA!2e0

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by mr.A

What is is holding up the tunnel boring machine?
No progress for weeks!

they woke up The Mole People, and they're angry!

[officedweller]

I know that they could have built dual beams that would have been more aesthetic if they removed the ramp - but it was likely a question of cost vs aesthetics.
I think the decision to use dual beams (i.e. TCH crossing vs Lougheed crossing) may depend on the radius of the curve.
It seems that most of the other sharp corners on the system are dual beam, but in those cases, they also lead to centre platforms - not sure which reason would have governed in those cases (if either).

[Prometheus]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

I think saner people would acknowledge that we should be very thankful if these "flaws" you speak of are the worst problems we encounter with the Evergreen line.

I don't think gratitude for things not being worse should be the primary emotion in cases where humans are perfectly capable of doing better.

And a rational society doesn't allow the possibility of even worse flaws to prevent it from identifying the flaws that do exist and discussing how they could be improved or prevented in the future.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by officedweller

I think the decision to use dual beams (i.e. TCH crossing vs Lougheed crossing) may depend on the radius of the curve.

If you have a curve with a sharp radius, you either need to:

(a) space the pillars closer together so that there isn't too much "overhang" on one side to unbalance the guideway in the worst-case situation of two trains positioned mid-way between them, or,

(b) have a single solid structure that rests on three pillars, with the middle one supporting the "overhang" (outer radius) of the curve so as to avoid that unbalanced support situation.

The individual concrete guideway segments can't be formed into a single solid structure, and they can't place the pillars closer together where the curve goes over something like a road, hence the need for the steel beams.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by Prometheus

I don't think gratitude for things not being worse should be the primary emotion in cases where humans are perfectly capable of doing better.

And a rational society doesn't allow the possibility of even worse flaws to prevent it from identifying the flaws that do exist and discussing how they could be improved or prevented in the future.

Well the flaws have been identified, many times, and IMHO as flaws go they're just not worth gnashing our teeth over. And even if the very same "errors" get made anew when the existing west terminus of the Millenium line gets extended along Broadway then I, for one, won't loose any sleep over it.

The Canada Line should show us that there are many much more important issues that actually impact long-term operation that we should be concerned about - I'm thinking about such things as platform length, station access, etc.

[Prometheus]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

I'm thinking about such things as platform length, station access, etc.

Those are precisely the kind of flaws that I was raising when you claimed we should all just be grateful.

One of the biggest flaws which I alluded to was the failure to build a single centre platform capable of facilitating direct, efficient transfers while supporting increases in capacity.

[VancouverOfTheFuture]

well of course there is going to be flaws!!! since when do government projects not have flaws? haha.

I'm sure they will learn how to do things better, well kind of sure, for the next addition to the Skytrain Network.