PHILADELPHIA | Highrise Development Thread IX

[acenturi]

This thing has been going on so long that I've forgotten the proposal details. As I recall, Market 8 is an all at once plan - including the Hotel, whereas The Province is a "Trust me" plan of building is phases. In other words, if Phase 1 doesn't make money, Phase 2 may never happen. Or am I thinking of one of the other proposals?

[3rd&Brown]

Originally Posted by cafeguy

You are definitely right that the type of person going to the Provance is a different and perhaps better clientel to attract to the city than those who might go to Market8... but Summer is right about market8, its got a better location with MUCH more foot traffic than the inquirer building. Then, with patco, the EL, ridge spur, and the regional rails right there... its a huge score. Provance only has the broad street line. Suburban station is close, but not as close as market east is to...well... market east. As for driving... 8th and market is a quick drive off the BF bridge, 95, and 676... not as convenient as provance, but just a itty bit less convenient.

Provenance better clientele? ROMAFLOL.

I guarantee you that Bart will make this the tackiest thing ever, every single commercial space on the roof will be either empty or occupied by a 'bro bar, and the only people who will think it's fancy will be the guidos from Camden County.

The rest of us would rather be a Market 8.

[3rd&Brown]

Originally Posted by ScreamShatter

Market8 has a good location for it's clientel. However, The Provence is an entertainment complex and resort. People going to a resort are not likely to arrive via public transit -- they will drive, fly, or take the train/taxi to get their hotel room. The point is that it gives Philly a much needed attraction for the more affluent resort crowd -- Market8 nor any other proposal will deliver that.

You're delusional. A resort on North Broad Street.

Mmmkay.

[Cro Burnham]

Got to be Cordish. Fast, cheap, cheesy project in a cheesy location, perfect for a cheesy business designed to profit off of a year round supply of captive, cheesy clientele.

Good public transit access to a casino is a bad thing: poor people will have one more way, in addition to buying overpriced sneakers, soda, and junk food, to squander their welfare money and screw their kids.

Market 8 or Provence: yuck.

Why don't these Gaming Commission clowns just make a decision already? WTF is so hard about making a choice. I get the impression they stretch out the process just to extract more favors from the bidders and to feel more important. Fuckin' get it over with already.

[Insoluble]

The gaming control board has made it abundantly clear that they care about extremely different things than we do. They will most likely not chose one of the Center City options if they indeed chose any of the current existing proposals at all. I'm not saying they're right, I'm just saying what is likely to happen.

In reality, we don't really need either center city proposal. First of all, casinos are no longer big money makers or tourist draws now that they are virtually everywhere. More importantly, with the current development trends, both the 8th & Market Disney Hole lot and the old Inquirer building will be extremely desirable properties within the next 5 or so years. Development is encroaching on Market East from several directions, and north Broad street is heating up as well, along with major developments to the west along Vine. Both these properties will see exciting development regardless of where the casino goes.

Originally Posted by Philly Fan

http://articles.philly.com/1991-09-29/news/25802720_1_louis-i-kahn-architects-anne-griswold-tyng

Very interesting read, thanks!

[ScreamShatter]

Originally Posted by 3rd&Brown

Provenance better clientele? ROMAFLOL.

I guarantee you that Bart will make this the tackiest thing ever, every single commercial space on the roof will be either empty or occupied by a 'bro bar, and the only people who will think it's fancy will be the guidos from Camden County.

The rest of us would rather be a Market 8.

I don't believe I said "better clientele." I said it serves a "different clientele" as it is marketed towards the higher income resort crowd than the lower income people.

Lots of people were against his various NoLibs projects and they turned out quite nicely considering they were on the edge of Kensington back at a time when that area was considered one of the top crime areas in Philly. I've yet to see Liberties Walk or the Piazza turn into these so called "bro bars" that you seemed to state in a rather racist way.

As stated, for me, I believe The Provence serves the best business need for the city. We don't need another casino that focuses on the lower income -- Sugarhouse has that covered and will expand. We need a casino that focuses on a different niche.

[tsarstruck]

Originally Posted by Insoluble

The gaming control board has made it abundantly clear that they care about extremely different things than we do. They will most likely not chose one of the Center City options if they indeed chose any of the current existing proposals at all.

I'm not sure where that rumor got started. I listened to most of the hearings and it was just as easy if not easier to conclude the opposite: that the gaming control board believed a casino that was just a casino would solely serve to cannibalize and not add to the market. Several board members said that explicitly. Unless you have some sort of inside information, claiming that you know the motivations of the board is baseless.

[tsarstruck]

Originally Posted by acenturi

This thing has been going on so long that I've forgotten the proposal details. As I recall, Market 8 is an all at once plan - including the Hotel, whereas The Province is a "Trust me" plan of building is phases. In other words, if Phase 1 doesn't make money, Phase 2 may never happen. Or am I thinking of one of the other proposals?

If anything, the opposite. They both have promised to do it in one phase, for whatever that's worth. But the Provenance would be senseless to only half build as that would leave the Inquirer Building's tower unused.

[PhillySteaks]

Originally Posted by Baconboy007

The Province is too close to nice residential buildings with front doors that you can walk right up to. That area is nice enough and has enough going into it that it doesn't need the casino. You could make an argument that Market8 will develop on it's own as well but I think this would take up a nice block of emptyness and at the end of the day is a nice hotel to add to the area.

Is there any other city in America that would have something like this? Not including cities based off gambling.

Agree with you. If the Provence goes forward just say goodbye to the beautiful spring garden neighborhood that took so many years to get back on it's legs and is now pushing out into fairmount/brewerytown/francisville. Outside of Vegas casinos are cancers, until people begin to realize that there will be nothing but a downward spiral from the day the doors open.

[PhillySteaks]

The PA market is completely saturated with these casinos. This isn't Vegas. Philly isn't a resort destination, and it's a long way from accomplishing to be one. The city has a historically BLUE collar past with a little pocket of wealth living concentrated in rittenhouse and 95% of the affluence just outside city borders sitting on the mainline. If you think these people will be visiting Philadelphia casinos you are mad. Why visit a philly casino when you can easily afford Vegas?

The people going to philly casinos are concentrated in a minority amount of Middle Class that want to have a fun night out every now and again, but know the value of their hard earned dollars so won't be rolling the dice on the regular, and the MAJORITY clientele which will be lower class people, as mentioned previously, looking to "strike it rich"! No matter where you build your casino this will be your outcome. Maybe not at first, but once the initial buzz of gambling wears off for the middle class and revenues begin to drop then the $100 table mins begin to fall to $5 table mins, rooms/parking become super cheap, and the casino gives out all types of "deals" to get people in the doors. Those "deals" bring a seedier crowd which then in turns drives away the small upper class group you had, and the middle class group that now think it's a dive. Look out on the spectrum 5-10years and tell me it's a good idea to build a casino on the border of an up and coming affluent spring garden neighborhood...let alone any new casino in philadelphia. They are a cancer, plain and simple.

[Outta here]

I have a tendency to agree with most of what you stated . Some other family or tax contributing entity would better serve the populous at large . In my humble opinion , gaming establishments would not mix well with both the historical value or the techno progress the city seems to be exploding in .

The cultural quality this city already has , is a direction I would prefer seeing our young starts enjoy and engage in ..... rather than , polluting the area with faults hopes about an easy buck . PS ; The house always wins , that's why they exists .

......... Like previously posted , it's just an opinion .

[mPhilly]

Although admittedly I've been flip flopping with my opinion on the CC casino. I think ultimately I'm not in favor of it. The reason is that it could be great for the city or it could be terrible. Nobody knows for sure and anybody that says they do is fooling themselves. We don't know how the community will respond to having slot machines in such an accessible location. It's basically a risk and I don't want the city taking risks like that 4 blocks from where I live. With a new office building or a new residential high rise there is not such a risk. CC (and Market East) are having no trouble growing and improving without the casino... so why risk ruining a good thing?

[summersm343]

Provence will be a failure. No ways about it. It's not in the right location of the city to be an "upscale" resort destination.

Market8 on the other hand, is in the PERFECT location to pull this off. It really depends how they market the property. If they market it as a RESORT first that just so happens to have a casino attached, then it could be VERY successful. A resort hotel with pools, rooftop lounges/terraces/bars, clubs, restaurants, shops, casino, etc. This could be a great addition to this location of the city in between all of the tourist destinations. It could have lit up lights and banners and signage fronting Market Street to add to the future Market Street Times Square wannabe.

It all depends how they market it. If they market it as a casino first, it will fail. Keep in mind, this will not be your Sugarhouse or your Parx or not even your Valley Forge casinos. This would be akin to a Harrah's. This would be a high class urban resort similar to the ones you would find in Las Vegas.

[ScreamShatter]

Originally Posted by PhillySteaks

Agree with you. If the Provence goes forward just say goodbye to the beautiful spring garden neighborhood that took so many years to get back on it's legs and is now pushing out into fairmount/brewerytown/francisville. Outside of Vegas casinos are cancers, until people begin to realize that there will be nothing but a downward spiral from the day the doors open.

Fishtown/NoLibs seem to be developing faster even with Sugarhouse right there. Additionally, Market8 is directly next to Society Hill and Old City which are by far more exclusive than Spring Garden.

[ScreamShatter]

I recall many posters on here shocked over how the attendance of the Art Museum compares to other museums around the world. A big part of that is because Philly doesn't have the type of attractions that bring people in from outside of the region, and these types of proposals are a step in that direction.

For all of you saying "Philly is a blue color town" or comments like that -- while you may be correct, Philly has got to look at building more people from outside the region to visit the city and more entertainment targeted towards a slightly more mature and affluent crowd. We lack that right now.

I also recall many of the same people saying "Philly isn't a resort town" supporting the Wynn proposal a while back. I've been pretty consistent on my stance on these topics -- Market8 and The Provence are the best proposals; however, I believe Market8 may be the best one today but looking into the future, The Provence makes much more sense.

[acenturi]

Originally Posted by ScreamShatter

I recall many posters on here shocked over how the attendance of the Art Museum compares to other museums around the world. A big part of that is because Philly doesn't have the type of attractions that bring people in from outside of the region, and these types of proposals are a step in that direction.....

I think you will find in the next few years that the implied demographic of primarily "blue collar" (accurate today or not), will fade without an added casino. The new Barnes, the Comcast Innovation Center, FMC, the Mormon temple and especially a revamped Convention Center management, to name a few, should significantly increase both the white/blue ratio and stimulate the flow of tourists to the more quality attractions the city has to offer. I have always thought that the city itself is partially to blame for the narrowly focused historical orientation tag, with publications like this: http://www.visitphilly.com/itineraries/p...ost-visited-attractions-in-philadelphia/. Philly needs to better advertise it's non-historic qualities continuously and in major market resources , including international. IMO, the city should re-position/advertise itself away from "history" - which the world already knows about, to a youth based fun place - and I'm not talking about Jay-Z concerts on the Parkway.

[ScreamShatter]

Originally Posted by acenturi

I think you will find in the next few years that the implied demographic of primarily "blue collar" (accurate today or not), will fade without an added casino. The new Barnes, the Comcast Innovation Center, FMC, the Mormon temple and especially a revamped Convention Center management, to name a few, should significantly increase both the white/blue ratio and stimulate the flow of tourists to the more quality attractions the city has to offer. I have always thought that the city itself is partially to blame for the narrowly focused historical orientation tag, with publications like this: http://www.visitphilly.com/itineraries/p...ost-visited-attractions-in-philadelphia/. Philly needs to better advertise it's non-historic qualities continuously and in major market resources , including international. IMO, the city should re-position/advertise itself away from "history" - which the world already knows about, to a youth based fun place - and I'm not talking about Jay-Z concerts on the Parkway.

Definitely agree with you on all those points.

I work for one of the largest innovative technology companies in the area and I'm constantly surrounded by the types of people that Comcast wants to recruit more. These upper middle class technology people between 28 to 65 love coming into Philly from the burbs to go to the theater, museums, street festivals, and to eat. However, they all leave the city before 10 as there isn't anything to do for them afterwards -- Philadelphia's "sin city" evenings is tailored largely to people under 30 or lower income people.

The above situation is why I am pointing out there is a niche that isn't being serves in Philly. There are few exclusive places to appeal to these more affluent individuals or even baby boomers who don't want to be overwhelmed by going to a casino next to a giant mall with a pretty bad reputation. Most of those people would rather be in a location like The Provence as it lets them drive into center city, it's accessible, and it gives them a bit more privacy while still being in the city -- for that client, going to The Provence will be an experience unto itself. I know it sounds dumb -- but I know so many suburbian people who would visit The Provence but wouldn't likely go to Market8.

[Cro Burnham]

Anybody who thinks that art museum attendance will go up because of a dowNtown casino . . . . that's funny. It's like suggesting that art museum attendance would go up if they opened a mega titty bar at 8th & Market.

[relnahe]

Originally Posted by ScreamShatter

I recall many posters on here shocked over how the attendance of the Art Museum compares to other museums around the world. A big part of that is because Philly doesn't have the type of attractions that bring people in from outside of the region, and these types of proposals are a step in that direction.

So having some of the most historic sites in America and having a number of world-class museums isn't an attraction but a glorified slots barn will?

Oh and that attendance list was from one year only. That year the PMA didn't have any large exhibitions. On the years the PMA has a big exhibition it is at the very top of museums visited.

[ScreamShatter]

Originally Posted by Cro Burnham

Anybody who thinks that art museum attendance will go up because of a dowNtown casino . . . . that's funny. It's like suggesting that art museum attendance would go up if they opened a mega titty bar at 8th & Market.

It's not a casino. The Provence is a highend resort with entertainment complex, shopping, theater, and there happens to be a higher end casino as part of it. It's the resort aspect that Philadelphia doesn't currently have.

We should end this discussion now and go back to talking about skyscrapers. It's obvious that many people can't handle having a logical and clean debate without turning this thread into something like the Yahoo comment section. I've laid out pretty thorough reasons for why I think The Provence is the best of the proposals -- please don't bother responding if you don't put an equal amount of time, thought, and consideration into your posts.