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  #11981  
Old Posted Jun 25, 2014, 6:03 AM
red-paladin red-paladin is offline
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I too agree there shouldn't be a referendum on transit unless there is also a question on capital spending for roads.
     
     
  #11982  
Old Posted Jun 25, 2014, 4:46 PM
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Originally Posted by GlassCity View Post
I'm still not behind mobility pricing, but other than that this plan sounds like it has a better chance of going ahead than I thought.
That depends on which report you read. The Vancouver Sun's coverage of the same story was far more pessimistic. After reading this article, I thought the whole thing was in a shambles.

Province rejects Metro transit investment plan
     
     
  #11983  
Old Posted Jun 25, 2014, 6:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Zassk View Post
That depends on which report you read. The Vancouver Sun's coverage of the same story was far more pessimistic. After reading this article, I thought the whole thing was in a shambles.

Province rejects Metro transit investment plan
This says it all...

Video Link
     
     
  #11984  
Old Posted Jun 26, 2014, 2:48 PM
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Here's an update on the Mk I refurbishment.
I was heading outbound into City Centre this morning and one of the garage doors into the old Bombardier plant was open. I couldn't make out the details, but I could see that there was in fact a Mk I vehicle inside the building.
     
     
  #11985  
Old Posted Jun 26, 2014, 10:12 PM
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Originally Posted by xd_1771 View Post
Here's an update on the Mk I refurbishment.
I was heading outbound into City Centre this morning and one of the garage doors into the old Bombardier plant was open. I couldn't make out the details, but I could see that there was in fact a Mk I vehicle inside the building.
Not directed towards you but a general comment...

Again, I don't see the point of the MK I refurbishment if they are not installilng A/C on them. It really peeves me when Translink spends what "little money they have" solely for aesthetics. Either improve the quality for the passengers by bring the older train cars to the same standard as the MK IIs and MK IIIs (i.e. provide A/C), or just phase them out! With the new trains coming in for Evergreen Line, there should be more than enough....
     
     
  #11986  
Old Posted Jun 26, 2014, 10:54 PM
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Originally Posted by queetz@home View Post
With the new trains coming in for Evergreen Line, there should be more than enough....
It is definitely not enough... How would a mere 28 cars be enough for a 11km extension plus a replacement of 150 cars? Even for Evergreen Line alone, having only 28 cars would already mean a slight reduction of capacity in pretty much everywhere in the system.
     
     
  #11987  
Old Posted Jun 26, 2014, 11:07 PM
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Originally Posted by queetz@home View Post
Not directed towards you but a general comment...

Again, I don't see the point of the MK I refurbishment if they are not installilng A/C on them. It really peeves me when Translink spends what "little money they have" solely for aesthetics. Either improve the quality for the passengers by bring the older train cars to the same standard as the MK IIs and MK IIIs (i.e. provide A/C), or just phase them out! With the new trains coming in for Evergreen Line, there should be more than enough....
Hardly just for aesthetics, the LIM motors and functioning systems are being overhauled.

As for the aesthetics, even on the contracted test trains, the new interior paint and lighting is a pretty drastic improvement over the fluorescents used prior. A/C is nice but a luxury considering the temperatures in Vancouver.
     
     
  #11988  
Old Posted Jun 26, 2014, 11:18 PM
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Originally Posted by nname View Post
It is definitely not enough... How would a mere 28 cars be enough for a 11km extension plus a replacement of 150 cars? Even for Evergreen Line alone, having only 28 cars would already mean a slight reduction of capacity in pretty much everywhere in the system.
I cannot imagine 28 cars fitting into the six stations at 11 km of guideway and still continuously move around to pick up passengers. THis would mean there is practically an idling four car trainset (or two car in each side) in each Evergreen Line station just sitting there waiting, with a four car trainset (or two two car trainset) to spare. The existing fleet is fine for the Evergreen Line extension, the 28 cars is just a bonus. Besides, I am very familiar with your "not enough trains" speak...Burquitlam should open once the tracks, electrical system and escalators are done!

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Originally Posted by tGill View Post
A/C is nice but a luxury considering the temperatures in Vancouver.
If that was the case, then why did we even have A/C on the Mark IIs onwards? We could even have saved hundreds of millions of dollars throughout the years by ordering non-luxury trains.

I remember during a heatwave Ken Hardie even encouraged Skytrain users to wait for Mark IIs and avoid the Mark Is....wtf??? Its not like people can freely choose anyway, you take the train that comes, and you cannot wait forever for the train that you want in most circumstances (i.e. need to be on time for work or school).
     
     
  #11989  
Old Posted Jun 27, 2014, 1:08 AM
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They should take out the AC and maybe Jugo Juice will sell some more drinks in the summer
     
     
  #11990  
Old Posted Jun 27, 2014, 2:11 AM
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A/C is a must on the trains in Vancouver.

it may not get as hot as other places but get a train with enough people in 20-25 C weather and it gets fairly toasty in there. i found even with the A/C on the Canada line trains i would be standing there and sweat would be still forming on my forehead.

i cant imagine how bad those MKI's could be in the summer. (i never really ever take E/M lines so i can't say; but i can surmise).
     
     
  #11991  
Old Posted Jun 27, 2014, 2:23 AM
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Originally Posted by VancouverOfTheFuture View Post
A/C is a must on the trains in Vancouver.

it may not get as hot as other places but get a train with enough people in 20-25 C weather and it gets fairly toasty in there. i found even with the A/C on the Canada line trains i would be standing there and sweat would be still forming on my forehead.

i cant imagine how bad those MKI's could be in the summer. (i never really ever take E/M lines so i can't say; but i can surmise).
Oh its bad!!!! Even more so when going all the way to Surrey via Expo Line. The sweat...the body odour....

It would help if each and every passenger practice proper hygiene, but one cannot expect as such in any public transportation system (except maybe WCE and similar services). Canada Line is okay since its underground for the most part, but A/C can really make a difference on making a trip pleasant on a Skytrain (or even a bus).
     
     
  #11992  
Old Posted Jun 27, 2014, 4:34 AM
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Yeah Vancouver is way too humid to skip AC. I was fine in 41 degree heat in Palm Springs a few weeks ago but put me in a crowded bus here and I'll start gushing sweat from every pore. Public transit is so claustrophobic and obviously not meant for people over 6'.
     
     
  #11993  
Old Posted Jun 27, 2014, 6:36 AM
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Originally Posted by queetz@home View Post
Again, I don't see the point of the MK I refurbishment if they are not installilng A/C on them.
You are making the rather large assumption that it's actually possible to install A/C on them. A/C requires rather large bays in each car to place the condensers, fans and radiators. You also need to supply them with power and provide some plumbing to deal with the waste water.

The Mark II car bodies were designed with that capability in order to market them in hotter climates. The Mark I cars weren't (they were basically the same design as the original prototypes). I doubt it's very feasible to install A/C into them even if Translink wanted to.
     
     
  #11994  
Old Posted Jun 27, 2014, 6:39 AM
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Originally Posted by aberdeen5698 View Post
You are making the rather large assumption that it's actually possible to install A/C on them. A/C requires rather large bays in each car to place the condensers, fans and radiators. You also need to supply them with power and provide some plumbing to deal with the waste water.

The Mark II car bodies were designed with that capability in order to market them in hotter climates. The Mark I cars weren't (they were basically the same design as the original prototypes). I doubt it's very feasible to install A/C into them even if Translink wanted to.
TransLink answered a long time ago that adding A/C to the Mk I trains would create problems with height clearance into the underground downtown stations.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jhenifer Pabillano, July 14, 2009
Installing air conditioners in the MK I cars would involve substantial structural modification in the ceiling area and therefore will be very costly. It is also doubtful that there will be enough space on top of the roof to accommodate the air conditioning equipment. There is no intention to add AC in the old MK I at this time or in the near future.
     
     
  #11995  
Old Posted Jun 27, 2014, 2:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinion View Post
Yeah Vancouver is way too humid to skip AC. I was fine in 41 degree heat in Palm Springs a few weeks ago but put me in a crowded bus here and I'll start gushing sweat from every pore. Public transit is so claustrophobic and obviously not meant for people over 6'.
Vancouver is only humid compared to a desert. It's pretty dry here compared to most of North America.

But ya, A/C is required on public transit. Just like your car, they need to have A/C here as well.
     
     
  #11996  
Old Posted Jun 27, 2014, 4:36 PM
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The HST debacle is the only history I need to know that BC voters don't vote intelligently when taxes are on the ballot.
I don't think this should be put to a referendum at all, it's a stupid way of going about policy decisions especially where it encompasses taxation issue. But this way is a scapegoat for all levels of government to not have blood on their hands. I wish sometimes politicians would step up and make tough decisions that may not be popular but are for the greater good. I still think the liberals should have fallen on the sword and kept the HST because now we have a horrible taxation system that we will have the honour of being the only place in Canada without a VAT style taxation system.

I just don't understand why they keep tying a big chunk of funding to something that's usage declines yearly. Why not put it on something that you can guarantee levels of funding year over year if not see a direct correlation between population or housing growth and funding. Even road pricing is something that if transit's goal is to get people off the road will eventually cap out and start to decline.

I know it is not politically popular to raise taxes but frankly an increase in property tax paired with a decline or elimination of the gas tax would be ideal and this would probably help keep more dollars on this side of the border/in metro as well which is good for other direct and indirect revenues that are derived from fuel.
     
     
  #11997  
Old Posted Jun 27, 2014, 5:16 PM
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I just don't understand why they keep tying a big chunk of funding to something that's usage declines yearly.
...while at the same time spending even more money on roads and bridges to accommodate that declining traffic.
     
     
  #11998  
Old Posted Jun 27, 2014, 5:42 PM
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We need congestion/road pricing...

     
     
  #11999  
Old Posted Jun 27, 2014, 6:58 PM
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I disagree. Not only do I think it's unfair to make people pay for what's always been "free," but people resent taxes and transit already. By making them pay to drive so that "poor people can bus around faster" Translink's reputation would fall even more. Think about the way that people spitefully drive around toll bridges even if it saves them lots of time. Same thing would apply here.
     
     
  #12000  
Old Posted Jun 27, 2014, 7:08 PM
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Originally Posted by GlassCity View Post
[snip]
By making them pay to drive so that "poor people can bus around faster" Translink's reputation would fall even more.
[snip]
^ Out of curiosity, where is this quote from? That's right up there with Pamela Sauder's infamous "...creme de la creme of Vancouver..." quote when she spoke before Vancouver City Council about the proposed routing of the Canada Line (then RAV Line) through Kerrisdale along Arbutus.

I didn't find a single Google match on that quote; the closest thing was a Jeremy Clarkson quote about him not understanding bus lanes and being incredulous that poor people should get somewhere faster than motorists stuck in traffic. In that instance he's missing the point: in the absence of transit being a viable, time competitive option, those transit users who can transition to private vehicle use will occupy far more space on the roadway than was allocated to the bus lane and traffic would be worse.

Consider the George Massey Tunnel. Traffic is terrible every day and yet by the Ministry of Transportation's own numbers 26% of the people travelling through the tunnel do so on transit buses. The bus lanes on Hwy 99 and queue jumper rights at the tunnel entrance make transit a time and cost competitive enough option that thousands of travellers opt to not drive. Some are captive transit users who cannot drive due to their age, absence of a drivers licence, or ability to afford the cost of private transportation, but especially for those transit users in the Hwy 99 corridor/South of the Fraser transit catchment area, most transit users are likely choice users who could afford to drive but are taking transit to save money and potentially time. Many if not most of these transit users on this specific transit corridor would change to private vehicle use in the absence of the time- and cost-competitive transit options and that would make congestion on Hwy 99 and in the tunnel significantly worse. The transit service is saving road users time and money at peak periods of congestion by preventing additional vehicles from using finite road space.

With regards to your other comment that it's unfair to make people pay for what's always been "free", your quotes are exactly on the mark since roads aren't free by any stretch of the imagination. Nor are the police free, hospitals free, schools, etc. Besides the cost of designing, building, managing, maintaining, and policing roads, there is the societal cost of congestion due to their inefficient use. We can either continue to price road access through taxes and subsidies and congestion alone, or we can price road access through a fee-for-use on the direct beneficiaries (the road user), lower taxes and fewer subsidies from everyone else, and less congestion. I choose the latter.

For just about all other public goods that do not have an up front fee-for-use system we use some form of triage. Whether that's the 911 dispatcher weighing the severity of your call against the finite resources of first responders or a nurse in the ER of a hospital weighing your malady against the finite resources of the hospital. We have no such triage system for the road network other than congestion. Modest non-punitive road access fees, ideally linked to congestion and/or time of day, will influence road users' travel decision making. For trips that are elastic, meaning you have discretion over when and if to undertake them, there is a cost incentive to not undertake these trips during periods of high congestion or on routes that are at capacity. Not only does this save the road user money but also time due avoiding congestion and it helps reduce congestion and delay for those road users that have inelastic trips to conduct. All of this is described by the graph on the previous page and it's also intuitive from the lived experience of anyone who has consciously chosen to avoid a trip during rush how that they can perform later, knowing that both time and money are being saved through the decision. The fact that postponement of the trip to an off-peak period reduces congestion for everyone else is in all likelihood a totally absent factor from the decision-making process.

We also already have a real-world model for travel pricing: transit fares. Translink's peak pricing model and zone-based system deters travel for those with elastic trips during peak periods and aims to maximize the efficiency of the system while accomplishing its core responsibility of providing mobility on demand. The physical space inside a transit vehicle at any given time is finite - just as space on a road at any given time is finite - and when a traveller is using the space in the transit vehicle or on the road, nobody else can use the same space. If an elastic trip is conducted during peak travel times it contributes to system congestion and prevents someone with an inelastic trip from using that space thereby delaying them and costing time. In the absence of any pricing signal, and with baseline funding through taxes and subsidy having no bearing on travel decision making, all that is left to influence travel decision making is congestion.

Everyone directly benefits from the efficient use of a transportation network and the corollary of decreased congestion while only the traveller directly benefits from their use of the transport network. For this reason, flat-rate unlimited-use transit passes cause congestion and work against system transit efficiency and are the practical transit equivalent of "free" road access for drivers. They take away the peak price signal and rely on congestion alone to influence travel decisions. There's a social equity dimension to unlimited use passes for those with incomes that are low enough that affording per-trip pricing would severely constrain their mobility, just as there would be for road pricing, but these are social welfare factors best addressed on an individual basis, just as we do through social safety net programs intended to address the cost of food, shelter, etc., for very low income individuals and households. Designing the entire transportation network to address these issues, with the consequence being transportation network congestion and inefficiency, is problematic to say the least.

We don't make food, clothes, and housing free for everyone, supported solely through taxes and with congestion in the form of endless Soviet-style lineups and wait-lists governing people's ability to obtain the free services and the subsequent scarcity of the finite goods determining what we receive and when. But that's precisely how our roads work.

[Looks like this post is how I spent my lunch hour today]
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