Calgary Public Transit II

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by joe498

I heard talk a few months ago about using existing rail for commuting purposes, forget if it was CP or CN from Airdrie to Okotoks.

Won't happen soon since it has to use the main line at some point to access downtown. Massively expensive. The mainline is at full capacity with freight.

Originally Posted by Chadillaccc

The 202 line will not be using the 8th Avenue Subway. The plan has always been that 201 will go underground, and the 202 will continue to use 7th Avenue indefinitely.


Yes, that was a terrible move by the councillors to vote against it. Though, frequency on the 202 could definitely be increased to accomodate a train to and from Mount Royal every 10 minutes. Just less frequency than the main lines.

Urban Gondola from Westbrook or 26th Ave to MRU would likely work ok.

Originally Posted by joe498

Apparently it was in the initial west LRT plan but some Councillors voted against it.

Bad move.

Mount Royal U access would have cost more and generated less ridership. The 1982 approved plan was to run to 17th Ave and 69th Street.

[Full Mountain]

Originally Posted by milomilo

Yes, but frequency cannot be increased on either while the 201 interlines with the 202.

Originally Posted by DizzyEdge

Are the trains already at max frequency on 7th ave?

Yup, if anything it is over capacity causing cascading delays from minor events like someone holding the door.

[Full Mountain]

This annoucement was posted on the SAIT website

http://www.sait.ca/about-sait/news/news/...expansion-makes-room-for-more-riders.php

Looks like the north end of the platform closes on the 25th.

[freeweed]

Originally Posted by joe498

Cochrane, Okotoks and Chestemere all make use of our LRT system and use our parking stalls. Infrastructure not funded by development levies or land developers.

joe - small SSP vocabulary tip. Around here, those places are typically called "exurbs", whereas "suburbs" are places within the City of Calgary - like Royal Oak, or Saddletowne, or Silverado. In a unicity model, people here consider suburbs to be places that pay into our infrastructure, while exurbs do not.

Just in case it seems like people aren't understanding.

Because when you phrase it that way, I completely agree with your point. Personally, I think a parking levy on out-of-city vehicles (at LRT lots and DT parking lots) could cover the issue nicely. Cheap enough to implement, too.

[ByeByeBaby]

Originally Posted by DizzyEdge

Are the trains already at max frequency on 7th ave?

The last time I checked, the schedule had 27 or 28 trains during the highest hour westbound at City Hall in the AM. The maximum capacity that Washington DC Metro has is 26 trains per hour (the central red line as well as the shared blue/orange and green/yellow) segments. In San Francisco, BART puts 20 trains an hour through the Transbay Tunnel. Those are both totally separated heavy metro systems. SkyTrain has trains every 2-3 minutes on the combined Expo/Millennium line, which implies 24 trains an hour.

Basically, it's a miracle we put the volume of traffic through that we do on a system with road crossings. (Of course, it's actually the City doing a very good job, not an actual miracle.)

[freeweed]

Originally Posted by ByeByeBaby

The last time I checked, the schedule had 27 or 28 trains during the highest hour westbound at City Hall in the AM. The maximum capacity that Washington DC Metro has is 26 trains per hour (the central red line as well as the shared blue/orange and green/yellow) segments. In San Francisco, BART puts 20 trains an hour through the Transbay Tunnel. Those are both totally separated heavy metro systems. SkyTrain has trains every 2-3 minutes on the combined Expo/Millennium line, which implies 24 trains an hour.

Basically, it's a miracle we put the volume of traffic through that we do on a system with road crossings. (Of course, it's actually the City doing a very good job, not an actual miracle.)

I'd go so far as to call it a miracle. I can't think of any large organization that manages efficiency like this, public or private. Especially given the ... challenges of keeping the trains running on time. Near collisions, people walking against the lights, people holding doors, etc.

Those numbers are absolutely insane. Especially given road crossings and the fact that the rails bend so much as you enter/exit 7th Ave. The trains have to take extra time leaving. Oh and the fact that they're interlined.

Miracle. I can't think of a better use for the word.

[Spring2008]

Converting the SE to lrt in 30 years!? 🞵🞵🞵??weird, how are the existing lines going to keep up with the 30-40,000 new downtown workers every development cycle. Does that mean NC lrt is going first?

[Chadillaccc]

Originally Posted by freeweed

joe - small SSP vocabulary tip. Around here, those places are typically called "exurbs", whereas "suburbs" are places within the City of Calgary - like Royal Oak, or Saddletowne, or Silverado.

I consider places like Springbank and Rockyview to be exurbs, places with urban amenities like Airdrie, Cochrane, Okotoks, and Chestermere, are suburban.

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by freeweed

I'd go so far as to call it a miracle. I can't think of any large organization that manages efficiency like this, public or private. Especially given the ... challenges of keeping the trains running on time. Near collisions, people walking against the lights, people holding doors, etc.

Those numbers are absolutely insane. Especially given road crossings and the fact that the rails bend so much as you enter/exit 7th Ave. The trains have to take extra time leaving. Oh and the fact that they're interlined.

Miracle. I can't think of a better use for the word.

The problems are very obvious in use though - the journey through downtown is often painfully slow. The one improvement I would make is to make the doors far more aggressive. No more passengers holding the doors open, and when it's time to close, they close.

Calgary Transit is doing a good job with the resources they have, but that tunnel can't come too soon.

[YYCguys]

Would it possible (money talk aside) to build tunnels and underground stations for the two existing lines AND the planned SE/NC line in the downtown core, leaving 7th Avenue for cars exclusively? If so, I think that might be the quickest and most efficient way to move cars, busses, and LRT through downtown.

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by YYCguys

Would it possible (money talk aside) to build tunnels and underground stations for the two existing lines AND the planned SE/NC line in the downtown core, leaving 7th Avenue for cars exclusively? If so, I think that might be the quickest and most efficient way to move cars, busses, and LRT through downtown.

Possible, yes, but not cheap or easy. The 8th Ave route has been planned for a long time and some work has already been put into it. Re-routing 202 would be more difficult, there is no obvious route for cut and cover, so would likely be a bored tunnel. I'd rather that $1B was spent on other parts of the network.

Someone on this board produced a good calculation of how much more capacity will be available to the 202 once 4 car trains are introduced and the (higher frequency) 201 taken off 7th Ave - it was something like 300%, so more than enough for a while.

[MalcolmTucker]

Yeah, but downtown travel is constrained by the number of lanes into and out of it. Downtown is effectively an island with the rivers and the railway surrounding it. The number of parking spots on that island is regulated to prevent congestion getting incredibly bad. Downtown circulation isn't a problem, backups from bottlenecks is, which impacts downtown circulation.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by YYCguys

Would it possible (money talk aside) to build tunnels and underground stations for the two existing lines AND the planned SE/NC line in the downtown core, leaving 7th Avenue for cars exclusively? If so, I think that might be the quickest and most efficient way to move cars, busses, and LRT through downtown.

If 7th was ever cleared of the LRT the best use would be an exclusive busway. Get the buses off of 5th and 6th ave. Speeds up traffic on those roads and would give buses unrestricted movement.

[Full Mountain]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

If 7th was ever cleared of the LRT the best use would be an exclusive busway. Get the buses off of 5th and 6th ave. Speeds up traffic on those roads and would give buses unrestricted movement.

Exactly, the amount of issues the buses on 5th/6th cause when they need to move across to turn is amazing, yet there is still significant resistance to a dedicated bus lane. Speak of has anyone heard anything regarding that? I recall someone mentioned that it was being considered a while back.

[YYCguys]

Originally Posted by milomilo

...how much more capacity will be available to the 202 once 4 car trains are introduced...

Why would only the 202 remain above ground, especially if movement of the LRT through the core is slow due to road crossings? Wouldn't it make sense to bury all three lines (again, not talking about money)?

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by YYCguys

Why would only the 202 remain above ground, especially if movement of the LRT through the core is slow due to road crossings? Wouldn't it make sense to bury all three lines (again, not talking about money)?

Speed isn't the reason to bury the lines, capacity is.

[sim]

Originally Posted by ByeByeBaby

The last time I checked, the schedule had 27 or 28 trains during the highest hour westbound at City Hall in the AM. The maximum capacity that Washington DC Metro has is 26 trains per hour (the central red line as well as the shared blue/orange and green/yellow) segments. In San Francisco, BART puts 20 trains an hour through the Transbay Tunnel. Those are both totally separated heavy metro systems. SkyTrain has trains every 2-3 minutes on the combined Expo/Millennium line, which implies 24 trains an hour.

Basically, it's a miracle we put the volume of traffic through that we do on a system with road crossings. (Of course, it's actually the City doing a very good job, not an actual miracle.)

I'm not sure that it is a miracle or the city doing some miraculous job as much as it is likely a function of the heavy systems you mentioned being drive-by-signal (ATO, etc) as opposed to the C-train, once past the switches being drive-by-sight.

Which, in turn, means that the trains are operated slower. Theoretically, you could have even more trains going down there if they go even slower, achieving headways approaching station dwell times. But that wouldn't be very useful.

So I guess it is impressive that given the street intersections they are doing quite well, but looking at headway alone in this case might miss the fact that it is also a product of comparatively slow operation. For the downtown commuter, less of an issue. For anyone going through, fairly annoying.

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

Speed isn't the reason to bury the lines, capacity is.

So the above being said, the main reason might be capacity, but speed is a pretty good incidental reason.

[WaitWhat?]

I have a question on the switch to four car trains. I believe right now there is just enough space between 3rd street and 4th street for three car trains. Does switching to four cars mean that the lights at 3rd and 4th will need to be coordinated to allow for the train to move three blocks in one go?

[CTrainDude]

Originally Posted by WaitWhat?

I have a question on the switch to four car trains. I believe right now there is just enough space between 3rd street and 4th street for three car trains. Does switching to four cars mean that the lights at 3rd and 4th will need to be coordinated to allow for the train to move three blocks in one go?

Those lights are already coordinated, as 3-car trains don't fit there either.

[WaitWhat?]

Originally Posted by CTrainDude

Those lights are already coordinated, as 3-car trains don't fit there either.

Thanks CTrainDude. I'm sure there's been a ton of fun scenario analysis done on the switch to four car trains. I can see issues of accidents on 9th St and 5th Ave blocking both 5th Ave and 4th Ave and 9th St or 5th Ave and 6th Ave, etc. The sooner we get this train underground the better.