Confederation Line (Stage 1) | In Service 1.0

[Hybrid247]

Oh really? Would adding those trains to the tunnel surpass it's max capacity? I thought the tunnel was built to handle more trains for the future regardless. I know the chaudiere bridge is a popular option to connect the system with Gatineau, but it sucks for all the transit users from the south who will be forced to make a connection instead of having 1 ride onto downtown.

[Ottawa superman]

Originally Posted by Hybrid247

Oh really? Would adding those trains to the tunnel surpass it's max capacity? I thought the tunnel was built to handle more trains for the future regardless. I know the chaudiere bridge is a popular option to connect the system with Gatineau, but it sucks for all the transit users from the south who will be forced to make a connection instead of having 1 ride onto downtown.

The O Train and the Confederation line won't be compatible. In 2011, the city took steps to isolate the LRT, and prevent track sharing.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/lrt-regulatory-changes-sparks-confusion-1.995026

I don't even think the tunnel was designed to be interlined. Even so, if that was the city purpose, why would the city keep the Prince of Wales Bridge?

[Hybrid247]

Ya it makes sense that the city is going with the prince of wales bridge, it's a cheap and practical option. I just don't like that the line won't provide a direct connection to downtown, especially once that line is serving the airport.

When you say the tunnel wasn't designed to be interlined, do you mean designed to accommodate 2 different track gauges? I thought the new LRT would have the same track gauge as the O-train.

[1overcosc]

The maximum frequency of the tunnel is 40 trains per hour. While that's enough room for the O-Train line to theoretically enter the tunnel, the city does not seem to want it. In any case, the transfer at Bayview will be a very easy one--simply go up one floor and you're done. (The Bayview Confederation Line station will be directly on top of the Bayview O-Train station, not way off to the east like the current Bayview Transitway station is). Research has consistently shown that train-train transfers in urban transit systems are not considered annoying to riders, unlike train-bus and bus-bus transfers.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by Hybrid247

When you say the tunnel wasn't designed to be interlined, do you mean designed to accommodate 2 different track gauges? I thought the new LRT would have the same track gauge as the O-train.

Grade. The Confederation Line passes over the O-Train. A link between the two would have required the O-Train to rise up to the same grade as Confederation Line, which the city has precluded with its design.

[Hybrid247]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

The maximum frequency of the tunnel is 40 trains per hour. While that's enough room for the O-Train line to theoretically enter the tunnel, the city does not seem to want it. In any case, the transfer at Bayview will be a very easy one--simply go up one floor and you're done. (The Bayview Confederation Line station will be directly on top of the Bayview O-Train station, not way off to the east like the current Bayview Transitway station is). Research has consistently shown that train-train transfers in urban transit systems are not considered annoying to riders, unlike train-bus and bus-bus transfers.

It'll most certainly be an easy connection. It's not about having to walk up the stairs to the next platform that bothers me. It's that I know oc transpo is god awful when it comes to planning the schedule and timing for buses to provide a good and timely connection.

I can just imagine a few scenarios that could likely occur once confederation line is built. For example; When it's late night schedule and the train frequency is every 30 minutes and you have to go from Rideau Centre station to Carleton U. You hop on a train west and get off at Bayview to find that you have to wait 20 minutes for the next train (I know daytime frequency will be every 8 mins but not sure what the late night one will be).

Not very practical...

[Hybrid247]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

Grade. The Confederation Line passes over the O-Train. A link between the two would have required the O-Train to rise up to the same grade as Confederation Line, which the city has precluded with its design.

Thanks for clarifying

[Mikeed]

Originally Posted by Hybrid247

For example; When it's late night schedule and the train frequency is every 30 minutes and you have to go from Rideau Centre station to Carleton U. You hop on a train west and get off at Bayview to find that you have to wait 20 minutes for the next train (I know daytime frequency will be every 8 mins but not sure what the late night one will be).

Not very practical...

The longest wait for a Confederation line train at open will be 15 mins, and that's only between 23-1am, Mon-Fri.

The vast majority of the week running times will be every 5 mins.
http://imgur.com/XRWn94k
Mon-Fri, Sat, Sun.

[acottawa]

The problem with running multiple destinations through the same tunnel is that you get people bunching up on the platform waiting for their particular train (the way people currently overcrowd transitway platforms). It is certainly done in some many cities, but since Ottawa has opted for the bare minimum number of downtown stations and seems to have opted for narrow side platforms (and no suicide barriers), I think the last thing they want is bunching on the platforms.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by eternallyme

It would be pretty much impossible to run it downtown without a second tunnel set (expensive). I would much rather see it extend northward through Bayview across the river and an existing side track to Chaudiere...

I second that, and it baffles me that everyone involved keeps coming up with new and interesting reasons why this is supposedly undesirable or impossible.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by Hybrid247

Oh really? Would adding those trains to the tunnel surpass it's max capacity? I thought the tunnel was built to handle more trains for the future regardless. I know the chaudiere bridge is a popular option to connect the system with Gatineau, but it sucks for all the transit users from the south who will be forced to make a connection instead of having 1 ride onto downtown.

That's no worse than having to transfer from the Blue or Longueil line of the Montreal Metro to the Green or Orange line to reach your ultimate downtown destination.

[Catenary]

Originally Posted by Hybrid247

That's a shame. I would love to see the whole network using the same technology and having the O-train line going straight into downtown from bayview.

I don't mind this at all. Looking at other systems around the world like S-Bahn, RER and Thameslink/Crossrail, having mainline rail through the city core can be an asset in allowing commuter trains to leave the city centre and head for the suburbs. With connections across the river to the line in Gatineau and the level crossing with VIA's trackage, the line could have 4 or 5 destinations to the south/southwest using electric or dual mode MUs at a frequency similar to a metro/LRT. If VIA played nice (A big if) it would be very easy to setup rail to Barrhaven quite quickly.

Originally Posted by Ottawa superman

The O Train and the Confederation line won't be compatible. In 2011, the city took steps to isolate the LRT, and prevent track sharing.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/lrt-regulatory-changes-sparks-confusion-1.995026

I don't even think the tunnel was designed to be interlined. Even so, if that was the city purpose, why would the city keep the Prince of Wales Bridge?

While the system wasn't designed to be interlined, that doesn't make it impossible. Nothing stops the city from separating the grades at the diamonds and regulating the railway themselves, and then fiddling with Bayview to make it work.

[J.OT13]

It's just annoying to think that a few urban stations like Gladstone and Carling are so damn close to downtown but don't actually go there. Who wants to get on a train and have to transfer one or two stops later?

Obviously, the O-Train would have to be converted to lrt, just like the Confederation line, but it would be entirely possible to have multiple lines (I count up to three - Algonquin, Bayshore, Riverside South) in one tunnel. The max capacity is 24,000+ and today we only have 10,000 going through downtown. Having people wait for three different trains is still a huge improvement to the current 20-50 different bus lines on one stop.

Best example is the Oslo (nearly the same population as Ottawa), with 6 lines going through one tunnel. At a ridership level of around 230,000 per day, it is very similar to Ottawa's Confederation Line. Train capacity for the Oslo Metro is 986, again very close to our max capacity (900 for a full length train).

So yes, it is technically possible and I hope it happens one day. Airport connection would be pretty darn useless if it doesn't head straight downtown.

[Aylmer]

I drew up a map of what the O-Train in Hull might look like, but I think my post will be more on-topic in the Future of Ottawa's Transit thread

Sneak peak:

[Hybrid247]

Originally Posted by Mikeed

The longest wait for a Confederation line train at open will be 15 mins, and that's only between 23-1am, Mon-Fri.

The vast majority of the week running times will be every 5 mins.
http://imgur.com/XRWn94k
Mon-Fri, Sat, Sun.

Thanks for the link! I was wondering what the schedule was going to be like. I guess it's normal for a LRT like confederation line to run latest till 2am, but I'm wondering what kind of routes oc transpo will provide for later times on fri & sat nights. As of now you're able to catch a 95 almost on a 24/7 basis so I'm hoping we won't lose that late night service once the LRT starts up.

[eternallyme]

Originally Posted by Hybrid247

Thanks for the link! I was wondering what the schedule was going to be like. I guess it's normal for a LRT like confederation line to run latest till 2am, but I'm wondering what kind of routes oc transpo will provide for later times on fri & sat nights. As of now you're able to catch a 95 almost on a 24/7 basis so I'm hoping we won't lose that late night service once the LRT starts up.

A parallel bus would make the most sense. Running trains 24/7 would be very difficult due to maintenance requirements, it would have to single track long sections.

[Hybrid247]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

That's no worse than having to transfer from the Blue or Longueil line of the Montreal Metro to the Green or Orange line to reach your ultimate downtown destination.

Ya but the blue line goes nowhere near DT in MTL whereas the O-train line is literally right beside our DT.

It's just annoying to think that a few urban stations like Gladstone and Carling are so damn close to downtown but don't actually go there. Who wants to get on a train and have to transfer one or two stops later?

Obviously, the O-Train would have to be converted to lrt, just like the Confederation line, but it would be entirely possible to have multiple lines (I count up to three - Algonquin, Bayshore, Riverside South) in one tunnel. The max capacity is 24,000+ and today we only have 10,000 going through downtown. Having people wait for three different trains is still a huge improvement to the current 20-50 different bus lines on one stop.

Best example is the Oslo (nearly the same population as Ottawa), with 6 lines going through one tunnel. At a ridership level of around 230,000 per day, it is very similar to Ottawa's Confederation Line. Train capacity for the Oslo Metro is 986, again very close to our max capacity (900 for a full length train).

So yes, it is technically possible and I hope it happens one day. Airport connection would be pretty darn useless if it doesn't head straight downtown.

You and I are are definitely on the same brainwave lol. I figured that when the time comes to add electrification and double the track for O-train line, they could simply build it to use the same technology as confederation line. I can't imagine it being that much more complicated or expensive seeing as how they'd likely have to rip up a lot of the existing track anyway.

If it were built that way, couldn't they have the tracks turn east after passing bayview station to interline before lebreton? I mean it'd pretty embarrassing to have an LRT line serve the airport but not downtown...

[Hybrid247]

Originally Posted by eternallyme

A parallel bus would make the most sense. Running trains 24/7 would be very difficult due to maintenance requirements, it would have to single track long sections.

Ya I figured. I don't even think trains run later than 2am in toronto so I wouldn't expect it to be different for us.

[MalcolmTucker]

The cost isn't really worth it, and with automated train control you could even ensure during low frequency operations both trains dwelled for an extra long time on sync'd stops to allow no penalty transfers. You will eventually have to eliminate interlining to allocate more capacity to the main line, and interlining eliminates train capacity (it adds inefficiencies in track operation).

[lrt's friend]

As someone who actually lives in the south end of the city, the O-Train does not serve significant parts of the southern residential areas. You have to transfer to a bus. This is the problem that the O-Train will not go directly downtown. We will have to transfer twice. This is now a missed opportunity in 2006 and lets face it, electrification and double tracking will not take place within our lifetime. The problems in accomplishing this will become more daunting as passenger traffic grows on the O-Train and as track is extended further south.

We were recently discussing the future and the concern is dumping a full O-Train at Bayview and how many Confederation trains will pass during peak periods before all of those passengers are absorbed? And with this extra transfer, how reliable will connections be to southern bus routes that run every half hour? The O-Train has had periodic reliability problems, which I expect will continue as long as we continue to run single track service. And as I said before, airport service is useless if it does not run direct to downtown hotels.

I don't know why a city this size cannot run two routes interlined downtown. Calgary has managed this for over 30 years and without a downtown tunnel.

It seems to me that this city has many examples of best practices yet it is deciding to do something different. We will see what the ultimate outcome is. I can tell you that the plan as it stands is not appealing and I will continue to avoid going downtown unless I have to, maybe even more so.