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  #7121  
Old Posted Jun 16, 2014, 2:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Cirrus View Post
^
The point of unique branding is NOT to communicate to riders at a bus stop what route the next individual bus will travel. Rather, the point is to brainwash people in cars who never ride buses into knowing where a bus route goes, through sheer visual repetition over many months.

In your SKIP/DASH example, it doesn't matter that the "value of the vehicle wraps is shattered" for bus riders waiting at stop, because once somebody knows what route they want there's little value in the wraps in the first place. If you have a sign on the front (something we're never going to eliminate), that's what existing riders trust.

The real value of the wraps is simply to teach people the name of the bus route on Broadway. Once people know that, they ignore the paint job and focus on the sign, which is exactly what we want them to do. The value is for people who do not ride the bus and don't know anything about the bus system. For them, the benefit of unique branding is the long term reinforcement, month-after-month-after-month, that "SKIP means Broadway". Once they know that SKIP means Broadway, they'll be much more likely to ride the bus some future time they need to travel on Broadway. One mispainted bus does not matter because it's an outlier that blends into the background, while the value of the paint is in its cumulative effect over a long period of time.

So the correct answer for your SKIP/DASH dilemma is to just go ahead and use the wrongly colored bus. Existing bus riders won't care, and the real target audience won't notice.
I agree with one caveat:

When that bus rider waiting at a bus top sees a specially branded bus pass him or her, he or she will start to wonder about the advantages of taking it. The issue is not simply a matter of brainwashing the auto driver, but also what the affect of branded buses have on pedestrians (and even bicyclists).

I think that this brainwashing concept of the auto driver may be part of the reason that bus routes and bus scheduling can be poorly designed. Too much emphasis is being put on the suburbanite, and, not enough on the pedestrian, whether the pedestrian is simply walking from a business to his or her car, or does not have the auto use option.
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  #7122  
Old Posted Jun 16, 2014, 4:43 PM
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Yes of course. It's not just to educate people in cars, but also pedestrians and cyclists. Anyone who doesn't ride the bus already will learn where it goes.

But pedestrian trips and cycling trips are less likely to be diverted onto the bus than car trips, simply because they're shorter. If you're only walking 3 blocks, why wait for a bus? We wouldn't want you to anyway, since walking costs even less and takes up even less space than transit. But since peds and cyclists are usually also car drivers at other times, teaching them where the bus goes may divert their next car trip.
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  #7123  
Old Posted Jun 16, 2014, 8:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Cirrus View Post
Yes of course. It's not just to educate people in cars, but also pedestrians and cyclists. Anyone who doesn't ride the bus already will learn where it goes.

But pedestrian trips and cycling trips are less likely to be diverted onto the bus than car trips, simply because they're shorter. If you're only walking 3 blocks, why wait for a bus? We wouldn't want you to anyway, since walking costs even less and takes up even less space than transit. But since peds and cyclists are usually also car drivers at other times, teaching them where the bus goes may divert their next car trip.
Interesting points and I had to think about them.

I think that those of us who historically have owned cars tend to view urban bus travel differently than an adult who has not.

For example: the "0" bus.

The "0" Bus that runs almost the length of Broadway south from Civic Station runs through a variety of business neighborhoods. Bus riders that board and exit at these neighborhoods do so for different reasons.

A) A downtown group commute home from Civic Station to stops on Broadway for which using the light rail provides no time savings.

B) People that work along or close to Broadway. This group changes character as one travels south on the 0 bus, as different groups service different types of retail and entertainment businesses. For example, where there are concentrations of fast food restaurants such as on Broadway south of Littleton Blvd and north of C-470, the 0 bus is a commuter bus from apartment complexes along Belleview and in a two block swath on either side of Littleton Blvd. In a similar fashion, the budding entertainment district centered around about Broadway and 1st Avenue, provides ridership for workers and some who use entertainment venue.

C) Lastly, and, IMO, a group that is not appreciated enough in logistical planning, are those who take the 0 bus a short distance, such as to and from the urban Kings Supper at "Trolley Square" in Englewood, and, the underclass segment that goes to the Swedish Medical Complex area. These riders hop on and off the bus after a few stops, go about with their business, and, then use a transfer to return via bus within the time limits on the transfer. Such users view the 0 bus as a pay one time "Mall Shuttle." Most bus drivers know the scoop, and, let such riders return ride, after taking their transfers.

I believe that this last group will provide the greatest ridership increase for RTD buses in the future, as the auto challenged population, regardless of why they are auto challenged, will increase faster than percentage growth of the metro wide population. I think that carless young adults will increasingly take the bus, once more realize just how affordable short distance travel is on a bus.

Part of "educating" local bus use occurs naturally as people move into an area who either do not own a car, or who own a beater. People scope out where the supermarket is, coffee shops are, a neighborhood bar, etc., then "map" this into a mix of bicycle, walking, bus, and, light rail riding. I do believe, however, that many whose means are decreasing, hesitate to use such services due to who fellow riders are, perceptions about personal safety, and, false pride.

This is an area that RTD, IMO, can get additional ridership quickly through small scale mapping of multistory apartments in terms of where supermarkets, retail, and, entertainment is. Adjust bus routes to take advantage of very localized ridership needs. For example: I know that the 0 bus runs every 15 minutes in each direction. If I shop, I time myself based upon this bus frequency.

Having done this myself, I found that I could shop at 2 mile or more separated places (as long as they were near Broadway) and then ride to a bicycle friendly stop (down hill or flat riding) for $4.50 retail and about 90 minutes of my time.


(Branded bus, etc., show be directed to those people who need a bus to travel light rail stop distances. I imagine a "0x" bus that would stop maybe 6 or seven times between Civic Station and the Highlands Ranch terminus, including stops at Broadway Light Rail. Have the local 0 serve stations such as Evans, and Englewood.)
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Good read on relationship between increasing number of freeway lanes and traffic

http://www.vtpi.org/gentraf.pdf

Last edited by Wizened Variations; Jun 16, 2014 at 9:04 PM.
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  #7124  
Old Posted Jun 17, 2014, 3:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Wizened Variations View Post

Make it taller, fellas, if you want to sell this to prospective clients next year who arrive by train directly from DIA. These guys KNOW what the rest of the world is doing.

Sell the idea to THEM.
I highly doubt executives or really anyone with reasonable means will ride the train from DIA. An Uber ride to downtown is $80 and takes 30 min or less.

What do you think a train fare will cost? Once you get to Union Station, unless you're staying at the Hotel Crawford, then you'll still need a cab to get to your hotel.

For Denverites, we can park at the airport in the "Economy" lot which is a 5 minute walk into the terminal for $12/day.

It is cool in theory, but I bet ridership will be just as stellar as the rest of the system.
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  #7125  
Old Posted Jun 17, 2014, 4:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Stonemans_rowJ View Post
I highly doubt executives or really anyone with reasonable means will ride the train from DIA. An Uber ride to downtown is $80 and takes 30 min or less.

What do you think a train fare will cost? Once you get to Union Station, unless you're staying at the Hotel Crawford, then you'll still need a cab to get to your hotel.

For Denverites, we can park at the airport in the "Economy" lot which is a 5 minute walk into the terminal for $12/day.

It is cool in theory, but I bet ridership will be just as stellar as the rest of the system.
Based on other cities, a lot of business travelers will take the train. Business traveler doesn't necessarily equal "on unlimited expensive account."

Also, Union Station isn't that far from the CBD core. It's a reasonable walk with a single suitcase to the convention center for example, unless you're injured or retirement age.
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  #7126  
Old Posted Jun 17, 2014, 4:54 AM
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Originally Posted by mhays View Post
Based on other cities, a lot of business travelers will take the train. Business traveler doesn't necessarily equal "on unlimited expensive account."

Also, Union Station isn't that far from the CBD core. It's a reasonable walk with a single suitcase to the convention center for example, unless you're injured or retirement age.
Oh, that is surprising to me but could be true. I don't travel for work. My wife's company reimburses for Uber. I mean, you could take the Super Shuttle for like $20 and have it drop at your hotel. The point I am trying to make is that I don't think the train is that convenient for someone who runs the time/money analysis.
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  #7127  
Old Posted Jun 17, 2014, 5:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Stonemans_rowJ View Post
Oh, that is surprising to me but could be true. I don't travel for work. My wife's company reimburses for Uber. I mean, you could take the Super Shuttle for like $20 and have it drop at your hotel. The point I am trying to make is that I don't think the train is that convenient for someone who runs the time/money analysis.
Unless their destination is downtown, than probably not. But, remember that 31,000 some people also work at the airport and I would be confident that DIA would rather pay for an Ecopass than burn more cash on employee parking lots.

Uber's $80 to the airport? Is that from one of the city center neighborhoods? Because I might stop using the taxi if that's the case.
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  #7128  
Old Posted Jun 17, 2014, 1:51 PM
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Uber is 45 from dt..55 from dtc, heck of a lot less than a taxi, unless its during surge pricing.

From DUS, train fare will be $11...I really dont like it, but they are going "zone + special fee"...
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  #7129  
Old Posted Jun 17, 2014, 2:49 PM
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Uber is 45 from dt..55 from dtc, heck of a lot less than a taxi, unless its during surge pricing.

From DUS, train fare will be $11...I really dont like it, but they are going "zone + special fee"...
Not sure where you are getting those numbers? May 13th and May 28th it was $80 each way (to/from Riverfront Park), which was what had been expecting from several fare estimates I had done several days prior. What is the published taxi rate? $55ish? add $10 for a tip and I'll pay the extra $15 for the uber ride.....have not been in an uber yet that smelled of smoke, nor was I concerned the vehicle may come apart like many cabs!
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  #7130  
Old Posted Jun 17, 2014, 3:15 PM
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Ok, the $11 will shock a lot of riders, who expect pittance-level prices for public transit. The price ratio is important, not just the price difference. The airporter van isn't that much more and gets you right to the hotel. I'd still ride it of course.

Also: Hines is good at figuring out the sweet spot. Go 10 stories taller and the construction cost per square foot is substantially higher, possibly a lot more than the savings in land cost/sf. The garage would have to be bigger to reach the same spaces/sf ratio. The core would likely need to be larger. The project would also take longer to build. And the overall investment bet would be much larger. Yes a bunch of space might work, but you'd add some leasing disadvantages starting with higher prices.
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  #7131  
Old Posted Jun 17, 2014, 3:21 PM
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Why on God's green earth would anybody local pay $80 each way to get to the airport? That buys two weeks of close-in parking. You guys really do live in a different world, where not owning a car (and the time savings that come with having your own car) makes obvious sense to you, and $55 or $80 trips seem normal. If I had $160 to spend on an airport r/t, I'd drive. And if I didn't have it, I'd be on the $8 Skyride. Sorta makes me cheer for the next big tech crash, bring all you new-Denver folks back down to Earth.
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  #7132  
Old Posted Jun 17, 2014, 3:30 PM
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Originally Posted by bunt_q View Post
Why on God's green earth would anybody local pay $80 each way to get to the airport? That buys two weeks of close-in parking. You guys really do live in a different world, where not owning a car (and the time savings that come with having your own car) makes obvious sense to you, and $55 or $80 trips seem normal. If I had $160 to spend on an airport r/t, I'd drive. And if I didn't have it, I'd be on the $8 Skyride. Sorta makes me cheer for the next big tech crash, bring all you new-Denver folks back down to Earth.
Business expense accounts and can be a nice thing. Don't you lawyers have one or do your clients scrutinize the invoices that much?

That said, I probably wouldn't pay $80 for Uber one-way (as Uber is really just a cab for rich people who don't like stinky cars), but I do regularly wrack up $80-100 parking fees at DIA as I refuse to be beholden to a goddamn airport shuttle to get out of the economy lots and park in the garage.
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  #7133  
Old Posted Jun 17, 2014, 3:34 PM
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Originally Posted by mhays View Post
Ok, the $11 will shock a lot of riders, who expect pittance-level prices for public transit. The price ratio is important, not just the price difference. The airporter van isn't that much more and gets you right to the hotel. I'd still ride it of course.

Also: Hines is good at figuring out the sweet spot. Go 10 stories taller and the construction cost per square foot is substantially higher, possibly a lot more than the savings in land cost/sf. The garage would have to be bigger to reach the same spaces/sf ratio. The core would likely need to be larger. The project would also take longer to build. And the overall investment bet would be much larger. Yes a bunch of space might work, but you'd add some leasing disadvantages starting with higher prices.
RTD has not set the fares for the train to DIA. It will mirror those of the SkyRide ($10-$15 depending on where you're boarding) but nothing has been finalized and won't be for at least a year.
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  #7134  
Old Posted Jun 17, 2014, 3:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Stonemans_rowJ View Post
I highly doubt executives or really anyone with reasonable means will ride the train from DIA. An Uber ride to downtown is $80 and takes 30 min or less.

What do you think a train fare will cost? Once you get to Union Station, unless you're staying at the Hotel Crawford, then you'll still need a cab to get to your hotel.

For Denverites, we can park at the airport in the "Economy" lot which is a 5 minute walk into the terminal for $12/day.

It is cool in theory, but I bet ridership will be just as stellar as the rest of the system.
Just trying to be positive, which can get difficult as you know.

The entire "wheel and spoke" steel rail system is designed primarily to funnel users into Lodo, while penalizing those that need to go through or around it.*

What really is the DIA line designed to do? IMO, the primary purpose is to serve Denver's convention business where large numbers of out-of-state visitors are concentrated at one facility. A perfect example would be if Denver gets the Republican Convention for 2016, and, all venues are within a short distance of DUS. Conventioneers would not need a car, as hotels, restaurants, curio retailers, and, watering holes all would be in close walking distance.

What about individual business travelers once they take the DIA train downtown? Regardless of downtown civic boosters, many such travelers will need to do business in a speedy fashion outside the DUS - Civic Street axis. Would a business traveler ask clients in the Tech Center or Boulder to meet him or her downtown? Possibly, but doubtful. Travel times from Lodo to the Tech Center, Boulder, and the Federal Center when the walk from a given station to a business meeting at a business or a restaurant is added would just take too long. In other words, the single or small group of business people arriving in Denver will almost certainly rent a car at the airport, and, stay at a hotel/motel with good connections to the Interstate system.

However, I do believe that despite well intended but poor finalized DUS area plans, that the epicenter of Denver business will shift towards DUS. For this reason, I believe that any signature building needs to be close to the Union Station itself.

*This is the fatal flaw of Denver's steel rail system when compared to transit systems in almost all world class and second tier cities.
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Good read on relationship between increasing number of freeway lanes and traffic

http://www.vtpi.org/gentraf.pdf

Last edited by Wizened Variations; Jun 17, 2014 at 4:00 PM.
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  #7135  
Old Posted Jun 17, 2014, 3:50 PM
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Not sure where you are getting those numbers? May 13th and May 28th it was $80 each way (to/from Riverfront Park), which was what had been expecting from several fare estimates I had done several days prior. What is the published taxi rate? $55ish? add $10 for a tip and I'll pay the extra $15 for the uber ride.....have not been in an uber yet that smelled of smoke, nor was I concerned the vehicle may come apart like many cabs!

I drive for them when I get bored...the runs to DIA have been at off hours, rates do fluctuate.
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  #7136  
Old Posted Jun 17, 2014, 3:52 PM
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Originally Posted by wong21fr View Post
Business expense accounts and can be a nice thing. Don't you lawyers have one or do your clients scrutinize the invoices that much?

That said, I probably wouldn't pay $80 for Uber one-way (as Uber is really just a cab for rich people who don't like stinky cars), but I do regularly wrack up $80-100 parking fees at DIA as I refuse to be beholden to a goddamn airport shuttle to get out of the economy lots and park in the garage.
I seem to park the same as you do, in the garage, I like to be under cover during spring time hail storm season. My parking options for my 15 day trip would have been Mt Elbert $120, Economy E or W $180, Garage $345. So the Uber thing worked well for us. Skyride doesn't run that early....
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  #7137  
Old Posted Jun 17, 2014, 4:02 PM
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I seem to park the same as you do, in the garage, I like to be under cover during spring time hail storm season. My parking options for my 15 day trip would have been Mt Elbert $120, Economy E or W $180, Garage $345. So the Uber thing worked well for us. Skyride doesn't run that early....
Bunt would tell you to get a hotel room off of Tower Rd and make use of their lots as they will throw in what amounts to car storage if you grab a room for a night (which comes out at the cheapest long-term option I believe). But you're still beholden to a shuttle schedule and the whims of mother nature. I've done enough three-transfer all-day flights with 200lbs of luggage in my life to take convenience where I can get it.

Once the train is up and running I wonder how much a train and a cab ride to the center city neighborhoods will end up costing? If it's around $30 that would make it a pretty attractive option.
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  #7138  
Old Posted Jun 17, 2014, 4:08 PM
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Bunt would tell you to get a hotel room off of Tower Rd and make use of their lots as they will throw in what amounts to car storage if you grab a room for a night (which comes out at the cheapest long-term option I believe).
Yeah, I've done this for longer trips at the Aloft. Pretty good deal, actually. Even better if you have an early flight.

I don't care about hail, I'm not that prissy and I drive a big already-ugly truck. Bring it, mother nature.
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  #7139  
Old Posted Jun 17, 2014, 4:19 PM
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I don't care about hail, I'm not that prissy and I drive a big already-ugly truck. Bring it, mother nature.
It ain't an already-ugly truck if you don't have a gun-rack. Or at least a shotgun behind the seat.
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  #7140  
Old Posted Jun 17, 2014, 4:23 PM
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I keep the guns under the back seat, does that count?
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