Millennium Line - Broadway Extension: Planning & Pre-Construction

[Millennium2002]

Originally Posted by Prometheus

That may be the case. But in a recent Vancouver Sun story, Mike Harcourt claimed that TransLink's preferred plan is to go above ground:



http://www.vancouversun.com/American+group+says+route+failure/9478912/story.html

Well... that's... dumb on the part of TransLink?

Unless of course, TransLink is merely getting the ball rolling by causing a disturbance that'd cause the provincial government to intervene and commit to a bored subway. Of course, there's no guarantee that we would get that, but precedent has been set before...

This almost feels like a repeat of Evergreen Line's initial formation...

[queetz@home]

Originally Posted by allan_kuan

Well... that's... dumb on the part of TransLink?

Unless of course, TransLink is merely getting the ball rolling by causing a disturbance that'd cause the provincial government to intervene and commit to a bored subway. Of course, there's no guarantee that we would get that, but precedent has been set before...

This almost feels like a repeat of Evergreen Line's initial formation...

The "Evergreen Line's initial formation" was a sham to begin with. Translink was trying to sell "exotic rubber tire technologies" which is nothing more than optically guided buses, but trying to pass them on as an alternative to Skytrain using quasi futuristic artwork. And I personally fought tooth and nail (Clark Lim and Carol Evans sure loved me) to make sure that nitemare scenario never happened. Add to that eventually, none of the technologies that they were selling had widespread implementation for other cities considering the tech (even the Las Vegas MAX BRT using optically guided buses was never expanded, and the optical guided buses are now being phased out).

I don't know where Harcourt gets his info but I don't think he is right. Plus the article isn't "recent", as its many months old already. While I personally have no biase for or against Skytrain (though I prefer it to be above ground for Broadway regardless of the tech), I seriously doubt Translink is serious on any surface options either. So rest assure, bored tunnel Skytrain is an absolute certainty in this case. Going back to Evergreen, Translink did purposely sabotage the LRT option since they put so many add ons that made it so expensive you might as well go Skytrain anyway. I'm sure they will do the same for Broadway.

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by queetz@home

................
While I personally have no biase for or against Skytrain (though I prefer it to be above ground for Broadway regardless of the tech), I seriously doubt Translink is serious on any surface options either. So rest assure, bored tunnel Skytrain is an absolute certainty in this case.....

Your preference for above ground along Broadway? Why is that?

[Vancity]

Originally Posted by allan_kuan

Well... that's... dumb on the part of TransLink?

Unless of course, TransLink is merely getting the ball rolling by causing a disturbance that'd cause the provincial government to intervene and commit to a bored subway. Of course, there's no guarantee that we would get that, but precedent has been set before...

This almost feels like a repeat of Evergreen Line's initial formation...

going above ground would definitely be stupid.

subway is the best way.

[queetz@home]

Originally Posted by Vancity

going above ground would definitely be stupid.

subway is the best way.

Why would it be stupid? Its cheaper, consistent with most of the Skytrain system and gives the passengers one hell of a view to be high above. Afterall, if you want it to be Skytrain, let it BE SKY-TRAIN...a train high up in the sky!

[Pinion]

There's no physical room for an above ground line. Plus complaints about noise etc.

[officedweller]

Originally Posted by Prometheus

That may be the case. But in a recent Vancouver Sun story, Mike Harcourt claimed that TransLink's preferred plan is to go above ground:

He probably meant "at-grade" - as in combo 2 LRT.

There's constant confusion about that in Toronto, it seems - but you wouldn't expect that here. I'm assuming he didn't say "elevated".

and he does say:

“I have a disconnect with TransLink. They have this thing about wanting to go at surface and I think they are out to lunch,” he said. “It’s just dumb, dumb, dumb. You are going to be moving the equivalent of the Expo line, 200,000 people a day. You can’t do that on a surface street car.”

[Prometheus]

Originally Posted by officedweller

He probably meant "at-grade" - as in combo 2 LRT.

Yes, Harcourt's quote makes it clear he thinks TransLink prefers a surface streetcar-style plan.

[deasine]

To be honest the feeling I got from previous transportation consultations didn't seem to indicate TransLink preferred LRT over RRT at all, rather the planners in the room seemed to discuss about the capacity issues involved with LRT technology which indicated a preference to RRT.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by Vancity

going above ground would definitely be stupid.

I personally would love to see an elevated line along Broadway. It would be cheaper and provide a far, far better rider experience than a subway would.

Unfortunately, the realities of the political environment and the physical layout of the Broadway corridor itself make the idea a non-starter.

[memememe76]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

Unfortunately, the realities of the political environment and the physical layout of the Broadway corridor itself make the idea a non-starter.

I never realized people hated the elevated line. I love the elevated lines, myself. With underground lines, you can't do those Youtube videos where they show the development of Vancouver's skyline while taking the Expo Line.

I won't speak to the physical limitations of an elevated line, but is the political environment in favour of an underground line? I thought businesses along Broadway would prefer an underground to avoid the problem the Cambie St businesses faced. And if it's more expensive to build underground, I would think most taxpayers would take the cheaper option.

The Point Grey residents are another story, I grant you.

[rsxstock]

Originally Posted by memememe76

I never realized people hated the elevated line. I love the elevated lines, myself. With underground lines, you can't do those Youtube videos where they show the development of Vancouver's skyline while taking the Expo Line.

I won't speak to the physical limitations of an elevated line, but is the political environment in favour of an underground line? I thought businesses along Broadway would prefer an underground to avoid the problem the Cambie St businesses faced. And if it's more expensive to build underground, I would think most taxpayers would take the cheaper option.

The Point Grey residents are another story, I grant you.

elevated line is not physically possible on broadway since there is no median for the columns and the line would be just meters beside buildings. they can use elevated lines elsewhere where development can go around the line. both elevated and at grade would disturb existing traffic flow which would defeat the purpose of the line. you may like those videos but that would be hardly the reason to justify having it elevated. underground boring shouldn't affect businesses unless they do cut and fill. i would rather they not go at all than do anything besides going underground.

[memememe76]

Originally Posted by rsxstock

you may like those videos but that would be hardly the reason to justify having it elevated.

That is certainly not the only reason I enjoy elevated lines. The rides themselves are significantly more enjoyable, you're less likely to miss a train when the line is elevated (you can see a train coming from a far distance, so you'll run for it much sooner, Metrotown Stn being the best example), it's easier/faster to get to the platform. And I'll guess I'm a minority, buy I like the look of the elevated lines. Not just the really nice platforms along Millennium, even many of the older Expo Line Stations. I can't imagine False Creek/Science World without the elevated line between Stadium and Main.

[queetz@home]

Originally Posted by rsxstock

elevated line is not physically possible on broadway since there is no median for the columns and the line would be just meters beside buildings.

Sure....
http://images.placesonline.com/photos/24752_sotto_il_metro_chicago.jpg



As you can see, there is no median for the columns on that roadway, an its just meters beside those buildings. So this is proof that elevated is possible on Broadway. And its so cool, urban, and beautiful, isn't it? I hear that particular train system is world renowned...

Originally Posted by memememe76

That is certainly not the only reason I enjoy elevated lines. The rides themselves are significantly more enjoyable, you're less likely to miss a train when the line is elevated (you can see a train coming from a far distance, so you'll run for it much sooner, Metrotown Stn being the best example), it's easier/faster to get to the platform. And I'll guess I'm a minority, buy I like the look of the elevated lines. Not just the really nice platforms along Millennium, even many of the older Expo Line Stations. I can't imagine False Creek/Science World without the elevated line between Stadium and Main.

Ditto. I am a huge fan of elevated lines myself. I find them quite beautiful, a visible symbol of progress and transporation efficiency. I see the elevated Skytrain Lines as an architectural feature that gives so much character to Metro Vancouver, and it is absolutely SHAMEFUL that those that oppose elevated lines west of Main Street are so backward thinking.

[WarrenC12]

Those elevated lines in Chicago and NYC are terribly loud and annoying. And shade the streetscape pretty badly.

[idunno]

I too love seeing and riding along the elevated lines, but you can't dismiss their detraction from the walking environment. No. 3 Road is a good example.

I really hope they bring the Broadway Line above ground once they hit the golf course/endowment lands though - how cool would two stations/track be at UBC campus!?

[ssiguy]

It wouldn't matter if the median down Broadway was 100 meters, this is the Westside and that means a tunnel and there will be no tall towers along it either.

Tall towers blocking the sun over once peaceful neighbourhoods and loud trains is only for the Eastside and the power brokers in this city would get a nose bleed if they went east of Main.

[GMasterAres]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

It wouldn't matter if the median down Broadway was 100 meters, this is the Westside and that means a tunnel and there will be no tall towers along it either.

Tall towers blocking the sun over once peaceful neighbourhoods and loud trains is only for the Eastside and the power brokers in this city would get a nose bleed if they went east of Main.

Pretty spot on.

[GlassCity]

I personally prefer underground, but on Broadway I think it really is the only way. There's just not enough space for the giant Skytrain columns. Plus nothing is cooler than just stepping into a whole in the sidewalk and all of a sudden be on a trip to anywhere

[rsxstock]

Originally Posted by queetz@home

Sure....
http://images.placesonline.com/photos/24752_sotto_il_metro_chicago.jpg



As you can see, there is no median for the columns on that roadway, an its just meters beside those buildings. So this is proof that elevated is possible on Broadway. And its so cool, urban, and beautiful, isn't it? I hear that particular train system is world renowned...



Ditto. I am a huge fan of elevated lines myself. I find them quite beautiful, a visible symbol of progress and transporation efficiency. I see the elevated Skytrain Lines as an architectural feature that gives so much character to Metro Vancouver, and it is absolutely SHAMEFUL that those that oppose elevated lines west of Main Street are so backward thinking.

thanks for showing that picture... it just proves how ugly it is. warren already mentioned the problems with those lines. now if we use concrete like we do here, the thick columns will take up the sidewalk and cast a permanent shadow on the road. and where are you going to put the stations? by the look of that picture, it is nowhere near as busy as broadway