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  #7101  
Old Posted Jun 9, 2014, 2:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Cirrus View Post
10% more expensive is huge on a project that's already vastly too expensive to justify.
I had a concept that served CU and downtown. And was reasonable capex (more or less.). Wrote a whole paper. Let's look at it some time, offline. I'm more qualified than average on this topic.
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  #7102  
Old Posted Jun 9, 2014, 3:29 AM
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Would like to see that. Did it make it into the MIS even as a preliminary alternative back in the day?
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  #7103  
Old Posted Jun 9, 2014, 5:45 AM
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I think you've posted it before, years ago. Enters Boulder from the south rather than the east and uses Broadway, right?

I'd like to know the feasibility and cost of doing that, or of using some of the excess width on Arapaho or Canyon to pull the train into downtown. I strongly suspect it would be cheaper than doing both BRT and rail.
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  #7104  
Old Posted Jun 9, 2014, 6:35 PM
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How the money is borrowed and the timeframe are products of TABOR and bond markets. Take away TABOR and you might have some flexibility. But with revenues being capped as they are, the rest is just a function of what it costs. I don't know if you've ever actually read the constitutional and statutory provisions with respect to public finance, but it's very clear that this is how it was always intended to be.

You may want somebody to sell you a car for $250 per month for 3 years, but they're not going to; you're going to pay $500 for 6, like it or not, or you're not getting a car. In CDOT's case, they couldn't afford $500, so they found somebody who'd take $300 for 12 years. That's how it works. And there are additional provisions because CDOT can't even really guarantee the $300 per year without an election, so there's added risk, and that means the company actually is going to demand $300 for 15 years, in case you don't pay.

As for the conditions on public disclosure, you're just complaining. Of course, nobody would oppose a bill requiring more public comment, but you can't get a deal if you need legislative approval, because legislators have to respond to the whining, uninformed public, who want the car for $250 for 3 years. That bill, if allowed to go into law, wouldn't have meant a better deal for the state. it would've just meant there wouldn't be deals done at all. That's not fearmongering - I have plenty of projects that I can't get financed right now until revenue projections look up.
What this is more like would be a 18 year old son who wants to buy a car for 3000 dollars.

His father (or mother) says "We don't have the money to spare, and, we cannot borrow the money to cover (smart parents stay off credit cards). Don't buy the car."

The son goes out, signs a contract to buy the car, goes back to his father with the contract and asks his father, "So do you agree with me that I need a car?"

The father replies, "Yes, you do need a car in some ways, but, due to our tight financing, and, your not working, our not being able to afford you car is more important than your needs." A long discussion follows.

About 30 minutes into the warm theoretical discussion, the son pulls out a signed contract.

The father looks at the contract which states in paragraph 16, section B, paragraph 2, line 5, that once the contract is signed, the signee has 48 hours to back out of the contract.

He looks at the date and the date is 3 business days past (I am not talking about Colorado private motor vehicle purchase law, I am using this as a metaphor and I am not talking about the "get a job argument).

******************

What should really happen with Tabor regarding such projects is that the public should be made aware that the state CANNOT afford them, so why not scrap them? If the State cannot muster an election to get public permission to borrow money on a specific project nor persuade the Federal government through elected congress people and senators to provide out-of-state funds, then that project should not be built!

That is the true intent of Tabor.

However, what CDOT has done on US 36 and very likely is seeking to do in a round about manner on I-70 is to be able to finance a project that the State cannot afford without public involvement and final approval, i.e., expenditures of money if conditions of an agreement made in secret are not met.

This not an issue of assuming that our elected officials or senior level salaried state bureaucrats have or do not have the right to make a blanket contract or a build-to-print contract. Rather the issue concerns the agreement not being public debated with an underwriter of a multilevel agreement between the State of Colorado, foreign companies, and, 50 year terms.

That is not the intent of the Tabor amendment.

**************

Let's look at US 36, again, under the idea that the project AS DESIRED by CDOT and RTD cannot be built due to the State's inability to get the public to foot the bill nor get the federal government to put in a lions share.

Well, DON'T build it!

Ok, so how can we raise money to make such improvements?

Well, make US 36 a turnpike now, ran by the CDOT, and have the profits fix US 36! Throw the BRT out the window, and, just run more buses on US 36! Heck subsidize the buses- make them free- with turnpike generated money.

And all the revenue monies stay in State, and, out of a questionable corporation's hands.

************

I-70. Paint the viaduct, remove a few exits and improve other access methods for those exits. Paint the underside white and light it up. Add a couple of lanes to I-76 from Wads to I-25. Add a couple of lanes to I-270 (there's a lot of land available).

You get the idea.

CDOT WANTS TO BUILD THIS THING IT'S WAY but we can easily live with fairly simple repairs at a far lower cost. An affordable cost based upon current revenue streams.

IMO, CDOT on US 36 and I-70 has been following it's own agenda, not TABOR intent.

EDIT: Concerning your point on financing: as you are well aware, there are huge differences between financing private construction projects on private land and public projects on public property. In the first case, one has to get permits and the money, in the second, in a democracy one needs public approval of financing before the fact, not after the fact, then the financing and the permits.
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Good read on relationship between increasing number of freeway lanes and traffic

http://www.vtpi.org/gentraf.pdf

Last edited by Wizened Variations; Jun 9, 2014 at 6:56 PM.
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  #7105  
Old Posted Jun 10, 2014, 1:34 AM
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I'm glad you are in the minority. Most of us would not choose stagnation, even if it does require sitting in a room with a scary investment banker and an evil foreign corporation. Those Aussies, always out to get us.
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  #7106  
Old Posted Jun 10, 2014, 3:18 AM
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Hi Denver! SLC here.

How have branded buses been helpful to your transit system (mall and metroride)? Have they had the benefits of ease of finding and boarding a vehicle that lightrail has and would you reccomend them to our city? What has made your mallride so succesful? Do you think branded buses that are super high frequency are beneficial to circulation downtown in addition to lightrail, and do they help connect union station? In SLC our central station is about 6 blocks west of our cbd (keep in mind we have 660 ft blocks) and it's not easy to access nor as pretty and cool as union station. Does the location of union station play a part in the success of the metro and mall ride? Do you think more buses should be designed like it?

Thank you!

Sincerely, SLC
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  #7107  
Old Posted Jun 10, 2014, 4:48 PM
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Originally Posted by jubguy3 View Post
Hi Denver! SLC here.

How have branded buses been helpful to your transit system (mall and metroride)? Have they had the benefits of ease of finding and boarding a vehicle that lightrail has and would you reccomend them to our city? What has made your mallride so succesful? Do you think branded buses that are super high frequency are beneficial to circulation downtown in addition to lightrail, and do they help connect union station? In SLC our central station is about 6 blocks west of our cbd (keep in mind we have 660 ft blocks) and it's not easy to access nor as pretty and cool as union station. Does the location of union station play a part in the success of the metro and mall ride? Do you think more buses should be designed like it?

Thank you!

Sincerely, SLC
High-frequency, branded buses have been a huge asset to our transit system in downtown Denver. The MallRide and the MetroRide allow commuters to access any part of downtown from our two transit stations (Union Station and Civic Center Station) which increases the modeshare of transit in downtown. Being free certainly increases the appeal as well.

We have actually had discussions in this thread about which routes in Denver would benefit from branded service and has batted around the idea of using branded buses to identify our high frequency routes in order to make them more identifiable to the casual commuter.
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  #7108  
Old Posted Jun 10, 2014, 5:40 PM
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Originally Posted by wong21fr View Post
High-frequency, branded buses have been a huge asset to our transit system in downtown Denver. The MallRide and the MetroRide allow commuters to access any part of downtown from our two transit stations (Union Station and Civic Center Station) which increases the modeshare of transit in downtown. Being free certainly increases the appeal as well.

We have actually had discussions in this thread about which routes in Denver would benefit from branded service and has batted around the idea of using branded buses to identify our high frequency routes in order to make them more identifiable to the casual commuter.
Thank you for the response! I think the branding would have an affect on the casual commuter here too but we may not get any as our east west mass transit is planned as a streetcar and although our transit authority is moving away from rail, they are choosing "bus plus" instead of BRT for our high density communities

By the way, I read about fastracks and realized is there a transfer free way to get from northern denver metro to southern denver metro? I think the reason SLC has north south access is because our whole metro is severely geographically constrained (lake and mountains to the west, mountains to the east that are probably a 10 min drive from the median road to their base) so we really only need one commuter rail line. Also, it appears that the location of your airport is very far out (in denver equivalents, our airport would be about 66 blocks west of the city center and 14 north) which is why you guys are presumably building CRT? It's been nice to see everything flow along and you guys definitely deserve a transit system like that. I wish SLC has something like union station, it's definitely something you guys shouldn't take for granted
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  #7109  
Old Posted Jun 10, 2014, 6:07 PM
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No North/South or East/West one-seat service in Denver. Have to transfer at DUS.

Our "Commuter Rail" is significantly different than SLC's Frontrunner. You guys use a Locomotive pull setup, while we are going with an EMU (catenary, high platform, level board) setup. 4 (1 is partial) lines will utilize this technology (East, Gold, North Metro and NW). East Line (DIA) will maintain 15 minute headways throughout the day.


Source
Interior

Source

DIA Transit Center

Source: DenverInfill
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  #7110  
Old Posted Jun 10, 2014, 6:11 PM
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While digging through RTD stuff, I found this alternative to the Gold Line.

Would have used Streetcar:





From a 2007 Newsletter
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  #7111  
Old Posted Jun 10, 2014, 8:04 PM
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I can see why they didn't choose it. The east and west halves are too different. Trying to serve them both with the same line would make it not very useful to anyone.

The 38th portion would be slow and have frequent stops. That's great for hop-on-hop-off urbanites, but bad for straight-to-downtown commuters. So Denver and Wheat Ridge might have liked it, but Arvada and Golden would've hated it. Meanwhile, extending a short-distance hop-on-hop-off route all way out to Ward Road would be so costly and inefficient to operate that it wouldn't be very reliable for the urbanites.

I'm OK with serving different needs with different solutions.
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  #7112  
Old Posted Jun 10, 2014, 8:30 PM
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Yeah, there's no argument that the current alignment is superior for the scope. I was more interested in the fact that they have a 38th Streetcar scenario/alt. Curious as to what other routes they have (both in studies and internally) thought about for SC.
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  #7113  
Old Posted Jun 11, 2014, 1:31 AM
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It's still cool to see what a proper streetcar would look like in RTD livery though.
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  #7114  
Old Posted Jun 12, 2014, 5:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wong21fr View Post
High-frequency, branded buses have been a huge asset to our transit system in downtown Denver. The MallRide and the MetroRide allow commuters to access any part of downtown from our two transit stations (Union Station and Civic Center Station) which increases the modeshare of transit in downtown. Being free certainly increases the appeal as well.

We have actually had discussions in this thread about which routes in Denver would benefit from branded service and has batted around the idea of using branded buses to identify our high frequency routes in order to make them more identifiable to the casual commuter.
I am going to bring up Japanese practice, again.

The Japanese do a superior job in branding buses, and, trains, based upon whether local, express, or long distance is provided for the exact reason you mention: public appeal.

Branding of public (and private) mass transit systems and bus is targeted from kindergarten age students, through the elderly. Exterior paint, and, interior seat material are all color coordinated. Buses, in particular, look far less institutional in Japan than in the US.

Expresses buses should come from a dedicated fleet with their own paint scheme and interior colors. Regional buses should push both a unique color scheme and the comfort of their seats.

This is a cheap way to increase revenues. Wong is correct.
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Good read on relationship between increasing number of freeway lanes and traffic

http://www.vtpi.org/gentraf.pdf
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  #7115  
Old Posted Jun 12, 2014, 3:33 PM
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In the specific case of express routes (##x) operated under the RTD brand, buses are either 40' or 60' articulated, with a few regional coach substitutions as needed. For both types of buses, it is advantageous to rotate the buses through different routes to even wear on mechanical parts; For example, bus 9001 (a 60') would operate Route 116x on Monday (a high-speed express route to the southwestern suburbs), then Route 15L on Tuesday (a stop-and-go urban route with high passenger loads), and so on.

Perhaps RTD needs a new livery, but any rebranding of vehicles should be done on a systemwide basis, in order to allow for proper vehicle assignment rotation as well as to simplify unanticipated vehicle substitutions.
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  #7116  
Old Posted Jun 12, 2014, 4:33 PM
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In the specific case of express routes (##x) operated under the RTD brand, buses are either 40' or 60' articulated, with a few regional coach substitutions as needed. For both types of buses, it is advantageous to rotate the buses through different routes to even wear on mechanical parts; For example, bus 9001 (a 60') would operate Route 116x on Monday (a high-speed express route to the southwestern suburbs), then Route 15L on Tuesday (a stop-and-go urban route with high passenger loads), and so on.

Perhaps RTD needs a new livery, but any rebranding of vehicles should be done on a systemwide basis, in order to allow for proper vehicle assignment rotation as well as to simplify unanticipated vehicle substitutions.
Like any transportation system that has different types of vehicles and paint schemes for branding, other buses with different color schemes (and floor schemes) can be used, as needed.

The idea is to make a "best effort" not an iron clad rule.

System homogeneity exaggerates institutionalism while reducing both the pride of drivers and the feeling of riders that they are on "something special."

After all, "branding" is eye candy, not mechanical structure.
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Good read on relationship between increasing number of freeway lanes and traffic

http://www.vtpi.org/gentraf.pdf
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  #7117  
Old Posted Jun 12, 2014, 5:44 PM
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Southbound traffic is being moved onto a new structure to cross over both the Union Pacific and RTD East Rail Line tracks (just north of Smith Road) following a ribbon cutting at 11 this morning. Northbound traffic will be moved July 9 (tentatively).

This is a HUGE help for traffic on Peoria, which would frequently back up all the way (and sometimes onto) I-70 when there was a passing train. With the frequency of RTD's trains - every 15 minutes - this project is great for both safety and efficiency.
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  #7118  
Old Posted Jun 14, 2014, 8:38 PM
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East line:


from RTD
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  #7119  
Old Posted Jun 15, 2014, 4:05 AM
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Wizened, operations must always take precedence over marketing. Without a useful product, any marketing effort is worthless. Custom wraps for vehicles with the knowledge that transit agencies rotate their vehicles through varying routes to even wear dilutes the product by increasing the cost of providing service, resulting in higher fares or less service for the tax revenue received. Additionally, this attempt in vein at marketing suffers dramatically when a vehicle wrapped for Route A must be dispatched onto Route B due to a temporary vehicle shortage. As a concrete example, suppose RTD had no more SKIP vehicles beyond exactly what the schedule requires due to mechanical difficulties, and also had no more "vanilla" buses available due to other demands; all they have remaining is a bus wrapped for the DASH. A SKIP vehicle malfunctions while in service, requiring a prompt road replacement. RTD has two choices:
1. Use the DASH-wrapped vehicle on the SKIP.
2. Skip (no pun intended) runs for the rest of the day.

Option 1, which is the most resourceful, would result in easy customer confusion - at shared stops (from Canyon to Table Mesa), customers that use the SKIP to travel to a section of the route uniquely serviced by only the SKIP may ignore the "DASH" bus, as prior experience would mean that the DASH bus doesn't go where they are destined. Immediately, any value in vehicle wraps is shattered - customers now know that it is possible for the vehicle wrap to "lie" about the route.

Sticking to destination signs allows for proper vehicle rotation and doesn't hinder sudden replacements as needed. Using "vanilla" vehicles with destination signs trains customers to not rely on the bus-dependent paint scheme bus rather on the route-dependent sign, which is far more reliable (of course, the operator could key in the wrong route code, but that problem is easily fixed and doesn't occur with any regularity). Directing customers to focus on the route compared to the bus allows for a superior level of customer service to be provided, increasing marketability.

As a historical note, the reason why vehicle rollsigns (thus destination signs) exist in the first place is because street railway operators tried route-specific vehicles, and found they suffered from the problems listed above. Must society unnecessarily repeat the failures of the 19th Century again?
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  #7120  
Old Posted Jun 15, 2014, 5:27 AM
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The point of unique branding is NOT to communicate to riders at a bus stop what route the next individual bus will travel. Rather, the point is to brainwash people in cars who never ride buses into knowing where a bus route goes, through sheer visual repetition over many months.

In your SKIP/DASH example, it doesn't matter that the "value of the vehicle wraps is shattered" for bus riders waiting at stop, because once somebody knows what route they want there's little value in the wraps in the first place. If you have a sign on the front (something we're never going to eliminate), that's what existing riders trust.

The real value of the wraps is simply to teach people the name of the bus route on Broadway. Once people know that, they ignore the paint job and focus on the sign, which is exactly what we want them to do. The value is for people who do not ride the bus and don't know anything about the bus system. For them, the benefit of unique branding is the long term reinforcement, month-after-month-after-month, that "SKIP means Broadway". Once they know that SKIP means Broadway, they'll be much more likely to ride the bus some future time they need to travel on Broadway. One mispainted bus does not matter because it's an outlier that blends into the background, while the value of the paint is in its cumulative effect over a long period of time.

So the correct answer for your SKIP/DASH dilemma is to just go ahead and use the wrongly colored bus. Existing bus riders won't care, and the real target audience won't notice.
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