PHILADELPHIA | Highrise Development Thread IX

[Plokoon11]

Just curious can someone explain how the convention center news will spur new development?

[gfspeople]

Originally Posted by AbortedWalrus

By the time the DL is finished Fairmount Ave will most likely be almost fully developed from Broad to the museum. There are basically only two blocks that need it, the 1600 and 1700 blocks, and the 1700 block has proposals for two of the three vacancies.

The only problem with that assumption is that a street is not "developed" linearly, wherein reality the speed in which Fairmount Ave gets developed depends on the surrounding neighborhood. Specifically, North of Fairmount and between Broad and 20th is needs a lot of work, and it is this hidden area behind Fairmount that really slows the gentrification process. Fairmount has gentrified a lot over the past decade, but it is solely due to the slow overall gentrification of the backing neighborhood. So, Fairmount will one day be fully developed, the surrounding neighborhood will make more of an 8 year process.

[summersm343]

Originally Posted by Plokoon11

Just curious can someone explain how the convention center news will spur new development?

More large conventions brings more tourists which consistently fills hotel rooms which creates more demand for hotel rooms.

[AbortedWalrus]

Originally Posted by gfspeople

The only problem with that assumption is that a street is not "developed" linearly, wherein reality the speed in which Fairmount Ave gets developed depends on the surrounding neighborhood. Specifically, North of Fairmount and between Broad and 20th is needs a lot of work, and it is this hidden area behind Fairmount that really slows the gentrification process. Fairmount has gentrified a lot over the past decade, but it is solely due to the slow overall gentrification of the backing neighborhood. So, Fairmount will one day be fully developed, the surrounding neighborhood will make more of an 8 year process.

It's not really an assumption. The 1700 block of Fairmount Ave has two current proposals, one at the Church/Former cabinet shop which has been proposed to be redone as residential with ground floor commercial. Next to that is a vacant lot that used to be used for construction supply storage has a proposal from Dan Greenberg, who recently completed Tela's (which is honestly one of the best developments in the city in my opinion). Greenberg starts off slow, but when he does finish you get awesome results. The only additional vacancy on that block is on the Northern corner of 18th and Fairmount, which Postgreen attempted/is attempting to buy for the Folsom Powerhouse project (which is near completion). Those three projects alone would have filled in the entire rest of that block.

The 1600 block is a larger project, though substantial progress has been made in the past two years. Five new condo buildings were built on the north side. On the south side of the block, houses are being constructed on the Melon street side of the block, but nothing as been announced for he fairmount ave side. At the corner of 17th and Fairmount there are the Country Fresh and Elevator Security building recently had their lot lines relocated to prep the entire rest of the block for sale. That includes the parking area next door to the Elevator Security Building. It's currently owned by the spring garden cdc and they are actively attempting to develop it instead of sitting on it. There is a commercial real estate listing for the space listing a 5400sqft restaurant space and 1300sqft cafe space that are described as "Flagship corner restaurant space with vaulted basement space. Located on ground floor of new mixed-use development with high-end residential above. Adaptive re-use of historical factory." My guess is they only want to find an anchor tenant and it'll get the go ahead. Given that a new restaurant has opened up on Fairmount almost every six months, I wouldn't be surprised to see the trend continue and a restaurant pursue the space.

Obviously nothing is certain, but all of these things are recent developments, within the last six months, so it's also too early to call them dead in the water. Regardless, the infill in that general area is happening quickly, way faster than people realize. The difference between Francisville today and Francisville five years ago is astronomical. The only part that has basically made no progress is Ridge Avenue, sadly. I think they are taking a long view with the Divine Lorraine. It may not be the most desirable spot for a hotel this moment, but in the next five years it most certainly could be, especially if he also pursues his plans for rehabbing the old opera house into a concert venue as he said he was planning. Given that there will most likely be demand from Temple, that it's close to a convention center that is getting more business now, and how it's conveniently located between tourist draws, it's not that terrible an idea if you view it in a slightly longer context.

[ScreamShatter]

I understand a lot of focus on here talking about the Devine Loraine, and rightfully so. But the developer is also doing two other large projects in the area including the old opera house and the former men’s shelter (forget the actual name) around the corner. Personally, I think have mixed use projects in the area will help speed up development throughout the Broad/Fairmont intersection. I maintain that DL could survive has a hotel if it services the Temple community – 35k prospective students visit the campus each year (10k from out of the region) and all the parents and sports teams that visit. Putting some of that Temple tourism money into Broad St, along with a couple other bigger residential developments, will help the speed at which N. Broad rebounds.

[miesian]

Originally Posted by ScreamShatter

I understand a lot of focus on here talking about the Devine Loraine, and rightfully so. But the developer is also doing two other large projects in the area including the old opera house and the former men’s shelter (forget the actual name) around the corner. Personally, I think have mixed use projects in the area will help speed up development throughout the Broad/Fairmont intersection. I maintain that DL could survive has a hotel if it services the Temple community – 35k prospective students visit the campus each year (10k from out of the region) and all the parents and sports teams that visit. Putting some of that Temple tourism money into Broad St, along with a couple other bigger residential developments, will help the speed at which N. Broad rebounds.

Think of Downtown Brooklyn or West Chelsea just a few years ago....even worse, and now? Sometimes you have to let the developer take a risk. The Divine Lorraine is a divine bargain.

[Philly Fan]

Originally Posted by miesian

Think of Downtown Brooklyn or West Chelsea just a few years ago....even worse, and now? Sometimes you have to let the developer take a risk. The Divine Lorraine is a divine bargain.

Exactly what I was thinking. And as I recall, this current developer has significant experience in some of the hotter transitional NYC neighborhoods, and was quoted as saying that he considers Philly to have even greater opportunities than NYC. It's the longstanding Philly tradition: it often takes an "outsider" to recognize and realize the city's true potential (e.g., Ben Franklin, Willard Rouse, Ed Rendell, Tony Goldman, etc.).

Having lived both in Brooklyn and near Miami Beach in the 1980s, I'm amazed at how areas that were completely "written off" have so quickly and thoroughly been turned around to become some of the hottest neighborhoods in the country. All it takes is the achievement of critical mass for cities and neighborhoods to take off, and it's easy to see that a growing number of neighborhoods stretching out from Center City in all directions (can Camden be far behind?) are at that point.

It's the vision thing (1980s political history reference ), fellas, and you just gotta hang in there.

[Londonee]

Originally Posted by AbortedWalrus

It's not really an assumption. The 1700 block of Fairmount Ave has two current proposals, one at the Church/Former cabinet shop which has been proposed to be redone as residential with ground floor commercial. Next to that is a vacant lot that used to be used for construction supply storage has a proposal from Dan Greenberg, who recently completed Tela's (which is honestly one of the best developments in the city in my opinion). Greenberg starts off slow, but when he does finish you get awesome results. The only additional vacancy on that block is on the Northern corner of 18th and Fairmount, which Postgreen attempted/is attempting to buy for the Folsom Powerhouse project (which is near completion). Those three projects alone would have filled in the entire rest of that block.

The 1600 block is a larger project, though substantial progress has been made in the past two years. Five new condo buildings were built on the north side. On the south side of the block, houses are being constructed on the Melon street side of the block, but nothing as been announced for he fairmount ave side. At the corner of 17th and Fairmount there are the Country Fresh and Elevator Security building recently had their lot lines relocated to prep the entire rest of the block for sale. That includes the parking area next door to the Elevator Security Building. It's currently owned by the spring garden cdc and they are actively attempting to develop it instead of sitting on it. There is a commercial real estate listing for the space listing a 5400sqft restaurant space and 1300sqft cafe space that are described as "Flagship corner restaurant space with vaulted basement space. Located on ground floor of new mixed-use development with high-end residential above. Adaptive re-use of historical factory." My guess is they only want to find an anchor tenant and it'll get the go ahead. Given that a new restaurant has opened up on Fairmount almost every six months, I wouldn't be surprised to see the trend continue and a restaurant pursue the space.

Obviously nothing is certain, but all of these things are recent developments, within the last six months, so it's also too early to call them dead in the water. Regardless, the infill in that general area is happening quickly, way faster than people realize. The difference between Francisville today and Francisville five years ago is astronomical. The only part that has basically made no progress is Ridge Avenue, sadly. I think they are taking a long view with the Divine Lorraine. It may not be the most desirable spot for a hotel this moment, but in the next five years it most certainly could be, especially if he also pursues his plans for rehabbing the old opera house into a concert venue as he said he was planning. Given that there will most likely be demand from Temple, that it's close to a convention center that is getting more business now, and how it's conveniently located between tourist draws, it's not that terrible an idea if you view it in a slightly longer context.

I appreciate your Philly boosterism as much as the next guy, but it's somewhat nonsensical. The Home2Suites directly across the street from RTM and the Convention Center was deemed untenable and un-financeable without government subsidies. If a hotel in that location struggles to find financing, a DL hotel happening is so far out of the realm of possibility it might as well have been proposed on Pluto--(regardless of how your very, very, very, very, very rose colored glasses view this area).

I also just don't think it's a good use of space. Convert it to Condos or Apartments with ground floor cafe/restaurant.

[Captain_Hammer]

"Last night I was strolling by the Divine Lorraine and noticed they turned the sign on!" /u/d-scan on Reddit

They also have a website under construction.

[ScreamShatter]

Originally Posted by Londonee

I appreciate your Philly boosterism as much as the next guy, but it's somewhat nonsensical. The Home2Suites directly across the street from RTM and the Convention Center was deemed untenable and un-financeable without government subsidies. If a hotel in that location struggles to find financing, a DL hotel happening is so far out of the realm of possibility it might as well have been proposed on Pluto--(regardless of how your very, very, very, very, very rose colored glasses view this area).

I also just don't think it's a good use of space. Convert it to Condos or Apartments with ground floor cafe/restaurant.

A decade ago, no one would have ever thought that many of the city’s best restaurants would leave center city or start up in areas outside of Center City. Nor would people have believed that the most population growth outside of center city would trend northeast. With all of the trends that we’ve seen in Philly, I would expect that we would start to see more new hotels and commercial activity begin to decentralize too – and there’s a market for it slightly north of center city. If developers can open up hotels in “no man’s land” on Del Ave then I believe we can see similar developments on N Broad baring the proper partnerships.

I’m not against a solid residential development going up here – heck, Temple grad students will likely fill the place up. But I believe that a hotel of that size would be symbolic for the area and have potential to bring new dollars into the north Philly economy that wouldn’t have been there anyways. If they develop the DL and the Opera House and Temple buys William Penn High then that means that we will finally see almost an entirely connected series of buildings from Center Hall to Temple that will spur development (keep in mind there are 2 apt buildings going up at Broad and Callowhill and a potential casino there too). Overall, it’s quite exciting to see the potential for revitalized N Broad.

[MSFHQ]

I think a hotel is kind of pointless. Make it apartments or condo's. It is up the road from the Packard Motorcar building which is really nice. Still too far up Broad for my tastes, but the Packard already proves people will live there.

I just don't see people staying in a hotel in that area. Especially when you have nice places in CC. Either way I think it is nice that such a beautiful building is going to be redeveloped, but I just can't imagine the economics of making it a hotel.

[Londonee]

Originally Posted by ScreamShatter

But I believe that a hotel of that size would be symbolic for the area and have potential to bring new dollars into the north Philly economy that wouldn’t have been there anyways.

Do you think banks and financial backers care about "symbolism"?

[philatonian]

Originally Posted by MSFHQ

I think a hotel is kind of pointless. Make it apartments or condo's. It is up the road from the Packard Motorcar building which is really nice. Still too far up Broad for my tastes, but the Packard already proves people will live there.

I just don't see people staying in a hotel in that area. Especially when you have nice places in CC. Either way I think it is nice that such a beautiful building is going to be redeveloped, but I just can't imagine the economics of making it a hotel.

You're talking about the DL, right? As a hotel, I imagine that it will be primarily for Temple. A few improvements along North Broad between Ridge and Temple could really help transform that part of town the way Penn and Drexel transformed University City all the way to 40th Street.

But you are right that it can't really compete with Center City hotels, but I don't think it's designed to. At least until North Broad fills in between Vine and Ridge. It could also be mixed condos/hotel.

[philatonian]

Originally Posted by Londonee

Do you think banks and financial backers care about "symbolism"?

The financial backers don't, they just want to make sure they get their money back. But I'm sure Blumenfeld is investing in the symbolic transformation of the area considering he also wants to renovate the Met Opera House.

[AbortedWalrus]

Originally Posted by Londonee

I appreciate your Philly boosterism as much as the next guy, but it's somewhat nonsensical. The Home2Suites directly across the street from RTM and the Convention Center was deemed untenable and un-financeable without government subsidies. If a hotel in that location struggles to find financing, a DL hotel happening is so far out of the realm of possibility it might as well have been proposed on Pluto--(regardless of how your very, very, very, very, very rose colored glasses view this area).

I also just don't think it's a good use of space. Convert it to Condos or Apartments with ground floor cafe/restaurant.

There's a huge difference. Home 2 Suites cost $60M to build. The Divine Lorraine is pegged at $31.5M according to everything I've read. The Divine Lorraine will also have a huge number of historical tax credits and grants associated with it, probably much more than H2S did. So when it's half the cost and has twice the grants, that puts it in a way different context to me. H2S didn't have Temple to rely on either. Plus, the DL is not struggling to find financing. It already has it. The hotel aspect is probably just awaiting a feasibility study to determine if it is the best usage, but all indications show they're leaning toward that.

Anyway, sure my glasses are a little rose colored, but there's as much development happening in Fairmount and Francisville as there is in Grad Hospital, or QV+Bella Vista, or Passyunk Square but people just don't seem to know about it. Everyone talks about how rapidly those neighborhoods are growing and sort of ignores how incredibly fast things are changing on Fairmount Ave because it doesn't get the same kind of press. Given their proximity to cultural institutions and easy public transit access I struggle to see why.

I should also mention that the Blue Horizon is being redeveloped into a hotel primarily to support demand from Temple. Clearly there is some demand for hotels in the area.

[philatonian]

Originally Posted by AbortedWalrus

There's a huge difference. Home 2 Suites cost $60M to build. The Divine Lorraine is pegged at $31.5M according to everything I've read. The Divine Lorraine will also have a huge number of historical tax credits and grants associated with it, probably much more than H2S did. So when it's half the cost and has twice the grants, that puts it in a way different context to me. H2S didn't have Temple to rely on either. Plus, the DL is not struggling to find financing. It already has it. The hotel aspect is probably just awaiting a feasibility study to determine if it is the best usage, but all indications show they're leaning toward that.

Anyway, sure my glasses are a little rose colored, but there's as much development happening in Fairmount and Francisville as there is in Grad Hospital, or QV+Bella Vista, or Passyunk Square but people just don't seem to know about it. Everyone talks about how rapidly those neighborhoods are growing and sort of ignores how incredibly fast things are changing on Fairmount Ave because it doesn't get the same kind of press. Given their proximity to cultural institutions and easy public transit access I struggle to see why.

I should also mention that the Blue Horizon is being redeveloped into a hotel primarily to support demand from Temple. Clearly there is some demand for hotels in the area.

I actually think Blumenfeld is only applying for $5M in grants. And since Procida is providing the $3.1M needed, that grant would probably just go towards nice little additions.

My glasses are a little rosy too but I don't think its blind boosterism. The PCC is already getting positive press for ousting the two unions, and its echoing in the events community. We're going to see those hotels we were promised when it was expanded, and given the surface lots on North Broad, I guarantee you, that's where they'll go.

The DL won't seem so isolated once North Broad starts to fill in. Fairmount is basically the north's answer to Washington Avenue. But because it's in "North Philadelphia," that's why the transformation of these northern neighborhoods are being forgotten. When we view the city, it's easy to forget about anything north of Vine because it's largely been relegated as a lost cause by most. West of North Broad is already filled in nicely up to Fairmount, and Callowhill and the Spring Garden neighborhoods are doing the same for the east side.

It really is odd, and I've never understood it myself, how developers in Philadelphia steer clear of the major thoroughfares directly on top of the subway, yet they invest heavily in places like Graduate Hospital and QV, far, far away from the trains. But so much of the core of the city has been maximized in those areas that development is finally spilling onto Broad.

[1487]

They wont be able to justify a hotel for the project unless the numbers and projections work out. WHat people think should or shouldn't be placed at the site doesn't matter. If the people loaning the money think a hotel isn't likely to work they wont approve that use since they would be afraid of not getting their money back. If apts are the only use the market supports Im sure that is what we will get.

[cafeguy]

Wouldn't that be cool if every "greater center city" neighborhood had its own resident boutique hotel? For those parents coming in to visit their kids or people visiting friends or those on business or visiting colleges?

They have the one in bella vista being made. There was one proposed in northern liberties at 2nd and poplar. There was one proposed for fishtown at frankford and thompson. The marketing would be neat as well... "which philly neighborhood do you want to make your home base for the weekend?" Would go hand and hand with the new promo of these neighborhoods.

Divvine Lorraine would fit right in with that type of idea.

[Londonee]

Screamshatter, Aborted Walrus, PHilatonian:



Who am I to talk you out of it. Love your optimism.

[relnahe]

Originally Posted by cafeguy

Wouldn't that be cool if every "greater center city" neighborhood had its own resident boutique hotel? For those parents coming in to visit their kids or people visiting friends or those on business or visiting colleges?

They have the one in bella vista being made. There was one proposed in northern liberties at 2nd and poplar. There was one proposed for fishtown at frankford and thompson.

From what I understand that project is still on. The building is now covered in scaffolding and undergoing work.