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  #9041  
Old Posted Jun 6, 2014, 8:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Orlando View Post
I despise these anti-Mormon comments on here! Stop it already!!
Absolutely not. I will voice my opinion each and everytime. You are free to say what you want. Doesn't bother me.
     
     
  #9042  
Old Posted Jun 6, 2014, 8:33 PM
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The LDS church could in no way be linked to the effort in handing out condoms just because the LDS church donated money to the Red Cross.

I realized after that, the church donates money to local organizations, in part, to manipulate them if they are doing something the church doesn't approve of.


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Originally Posted by Orlando View Post
This comment is way off the line! They pulled their support because it doesn't align with their principles! The media can tie the church by association to the Red Cross for allowing Stenar's Safe Games group to hand out condoms and then make fun of the church for passing out condoms. It's not some conspiracy! I despise these anti-Mormon comments on here! Stop it already!!
     
     
  #9043  
Old Posted Jun 6, 2014, 8:36 PM
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I didn't make any anti-Mormon comments. I stated facts of what happened to the Red Cross because the LDS church disapproved, which is development related because if the LDS church doesn't like a lifestyle center which features bars, they have ways of stopping it from happening.


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Originally Posted by Orlando View Post
This comment is way off the line! They pulled their support because it doesn't align with their principles! The media can tie the church by association to the Red Cross for allowing Stenar's Safe Games group to hand out condoms and then make fun of the church for passing out condoms. It's not some conspiracy! I despise these anti-Mormon comments on here! Stop it already!!
     
     
  #9044  
Old Posted Jun 6, 2014, 9:27 PM
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So we are bashing organizations based on hearsay, conjecture, and the hypothetical now?

If someone had stepped forward with a proposal and funding to turn the Gateway into some sort of night life lifestyle center and it was blocked, some of you may have a point, but it's all fictional.
     
     
  #9045  
Old Posted Jun 6, 2014, 9:37 PM
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Originally Posted by RosePark View Post
So we are bashing organizations based on hearsay, conjecture, and the hypothetical now?

If someone had stepped forward with a proposal and funding to turn the Gateway into some sort of night life lifestyle center and it was blocked, some of you may have a point, but it's all fictional.
There are plenty examples in this forum showing this issue isn't hearsay or fictional.

It's also well known, getting a booze license is like giving up your first born.

This article was already posted here.. Showing the impact of the LDS Church and their power to control free market business here.


Maybe the reason nobody hasn't stepped up to the Gateway Plate is they probably already know their fate.


http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/57429543-78/utah-alcohol-church-liquor.html.csp
     
     
  #9046  
Old Posted Jun 6, 2014, 11:38 PM
Lilljemalm Lilljemalm is offline
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Originally Posted by SL,UT View Post
I would totally support the gateway being a nightlife district. But I think you and me both know the church won't have anything to do with it. They will use their influence at the DABC to try and curb any bars or clubs trying to apply for licenses. Just look what is happening with Oktoberfest. They are trying to reinterpret the current laws so they can push their agenda of prohibition. Maybe I'm just being a negative Nancy but that is just my opinion.

I think if the gateway really wants to be successful, that homeless shelter needs to go. Even if it was moved a few blocks south I think that would help a lot. I don't have anything against the homeless, but they cause all the drug dealers to come up to that area and sell drugs. It is great to see all the residential development in that area, but I think there should be more.

Anyway, Pride is this weekend! Cheers
You try to give the LDS Church credit for things they don't get involved in. It doesn't have anything to do with what is going on with Oktoberfest. That is simply the result of poor planning. I doubt that the church as an organization would interfere with the development of a night life area unless it were to become a red light district.
That said, I personally don't care for the development of a bar district. When I lived in Seattle, they decided to make the Pioneer Square area in to a bar district. Three years later they changed their mind - it had become a high crime area and now bars and restaurants city wide are heavily regulated because of it.
When I lived in Denver, LoDo had become a great place to get mugged or barfed on and it's where all the post game riots started.
Night spots need to be spread out and a night life district needs to be developed with not only bars and clubs, but also with plenty of small cafes, bistros, theaters, etc. to appeal to a very wide audience.
     
     
  #9047  
Old Posted Jun 6, 2014, 11:56 PM
Lilljemalm Lilljemalm is offline
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Originally Posted by utenation View Post
There is a big difference between bitter and stating facts. I don't care what religion it is, I would feel the same way.

When 90% of the laws are well represented by the LDS Church and their agenda for half or less of the population, that's a problem for those that aren't LDS. More Non LDS people need to get their asses to the voting booth.

I've worked around and lived around their agenda for 35 years, that doesn't make it right. I also respect many of the things they've done to enhance our community and ecomomy.

They cross the line in politics.. No two ways about it.
I always get a kick out of Utahans complaints about LDS Church interference in public affairs. They often complain that it stops them from getting things they want when if they would just come out into other parts of the country they'd find that more often than not, they can't have what they want out here either. And the LDS Church's involvement in Utah politics pales in comparison to the Southern Baptist Convention's involvement in Georgia, Alabama, Mississippi, Arkansas, Tennessee, and North and South Carolina (and parts of Texas, too). Believe, me in the south, the Baptist Church is the government to the point that people are told who to vote for over the pulpit.
The LDS Church only gets involved when it would be something that would be a bad reflection on them as an institution. They want a community that reflects church standards, but still gives leeway for others. It's a balancing game and many seem to complain about that. As an outsider to Utah, I am constantly puzzled by the complaints.
One thing I do see a lot of coming out of Utah is that the LDS Church leaders often are a voice of moderation. An example is the liquor laws. They pushed for changes to liberalize them and now want to wait see how they work out before doing anything else. Nothing wrong with that.
I can see, however, complaining about many of he legislators who are LDS. They often espouse positions that are not in line with LDS Church leadership claiming that they are. I think that more needs to be done to replace those legislators rather than complain about the Mormon Church.
Well, that's enough of my 2 cents worth of being way off topic. Let's discuss finding a developer for that big parking lot bounded by Main, 4th South, West Temple and 5th South.
     
     
  #9048  
Old Posted Jun 7, 2014, 12:00 AM
Lilljemalm Lilljemalm is offline
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Originally Posted by Stenar View Post
I didn't make any anti-Mormon comments. I stated facts of what happened to the Red Cross because the LDS church disapproved, which is development related because if the LDS church doesn't like a lifestyle center which features bars, they have ways of stopping it from happening.
I looked into it some more. At that time, LDS Church leadership did express disapproval of passing out condoms in mass on the streets, etc, but they did not tell the Red Cross that they'd pull support over it. They did, however, tell the Red Cross that support would be pulled because the LDS Church was allowing the Red Cross to use LDS church buildings for disaster relief and shelter, but found out that the Red Cross was trying to charge those who received that relief afterwards. The LDS Church said that it has to be free or else the Red Cross was out.
     
     
  #9049  
Old Posted Jun 7, 2014, 2:44 AM
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I was directly involved. I know for a fact that the LDS church threatened to pull the Red Cross' funding over their involvement in Safe Games. The national director flew out to SLC all freaked out to meet with LDS church leaders to quell their fears about the issue.

I was in the Salt Lake Red Cross offices the day the national director arrived in Salt Lake City. Everyone in the office was talking about what the LDS church threatened to do.

The Red Cross never charges people for receiving relief assistance.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Lilljemalm View Post
I looked into it some more. At that time, LDS Church leadership did express disapproval of passing out condoms in mass on the streets, etc, but they did not tell the Red Cross that they'd pull support over it. They did, however, tell the Red Cross that support would be pulled because the LDS Church was allowing the Red Cross to use LDS church buildings for disaster relief and shelter, but found out that the Red Cross was trying to charge those who received that relief afterwards. The LDS Church said that it has to be free or else the Red Cross was out.

Last edited by Stenar; Jun 7, 2014 at 3:09 AM.
     
     
  #9050  
Old Posted Jun 7, 2014, 3:27 AM
Lilljemalm Lilljemalm is offline
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The Red Cross never charges people for receiving relief assistance.[/QUOTE]

I was there, too, and as a Red Cross worker at the time, we did bill those who recieved assistance. The director did go out, but to discuss the use of lds facilities. Your subject did come up, and he did clarify the Red Cross' part in it, but lds donations were not linked to it out of respect for the lds church. That is all.
     
     
  #9051  
Old Posted Jun 7, 2014, 4:06 AM
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If you did work for the Red Cross, you didn't know what the hell the organization was doing.

http://www.snopes.com/medical/emergent/redcross.asp

Origins: The Red Cross has long been dogged by the persistent belief that it extracts payment for its services from victims of disaster. In the wake of Hurricane Katrina, that notion surfaced again, this time asserting those left homeless and desperate were being charged for coffee, cups of juice and cookies.

The rumor is false. The Red Cross does not solicit payment for services rendered from the folks it is called upon to assist during times of emergency. The American Red Cross says on its page about disaster preparedness for seniors: "All American Red Cross emergency services are provided free of charge." Southeast Michigan Red Cross web site's 'Ask Us' page says:
Q: How much does American Red Cross disaster assistance cost?

A: All American Red Cross disaster assistance is free, made possible by the voluntary donations of time and money from the American people. Disaster assistance is given free-of-charge without judgment or a promise of support.

Read more at http://www.snopes.com/medical/emergent/redcross.asp#chUPYfICCu2CTRal.99


Quote:
Originally Posted by Lilljemalm View Post
The Red Cross never charges people for receiving relief assistance.
I was there, too, and as a Red Cross worker at the time, we did bill those who recieved assistance. The director did go out, but to discuss the use of lds facilities. Your subject did come up, and he did clarify the Red Cross' part in it, but lds donations were not linked to it out of respect for the lds church. That is all.[/QUOTE]
     
     
  #9052  
Old Posted Jun 7, 2014, 5:52 AM
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Originally Posted by RosePark View Post
I make the same argument about the homeless shelter as I do the prison....it was there first. Moving the problem doesn't solve the problem and where exactly "a few blocks south" are you proposing?

The Gateway was once successful despite it's location. It will be again if there is a compelling reason for people to patronize it.
No.. But it moves the problem.. Let's move the homeless stuff to south salt lake... Close to reems.. The area is already ghetto.. Let's let it be what it is.. And let the heart of our capital city be free.
     
     
  #9053  
Old Posted Jun 7, 2014, 7:30 AM
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Originally Posted by utenation View Post
Absolutely not. I will voice my opinion each and everytime. You are free to say what you want. Doesn't bother me.
There are boundaries for civil discussion and just because you think you can say whatever you want to say on here doesn't mean you should or that you can on here Ute Nation. Your very negative and antagonist comment towards a religion and a people should not be tolerated. Do you think it would be okay for you to say something like that in a professional situation? How would you feel if people were to say that kind of stuff on here about what you believe?! Do you think it's right to say anything of hateful or mean-spirited comments directly insulting someone or a group on here? What about Muslims who wear the full garb and pray five times a day?! What about Jews? What about Hindus? Or what about Atheists? Maybe you are one. The point is that kind if comment does not belong on here?!! And, I absolutely refuse to tolerate any of that towards my faith on here! Sure, some commentary or disagreement of what the Lds church is doing in regards to development should be tolerated on here, but any direct insulting towards them or any other group is another story.
     
     
  #9054  
Old Posted Jun 7, 2014, 7:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Stenar View Post
I didn't make any anti-Mormon comments. I stated facts of what happened to the Red Cross because the LDS church disapproved, which is development related because if the LDS church doesn't like a lifestyle center which features bars, they have ways of stopping it from happening.
Stenar,
My comment wasn't directed to you specifically. It was more towards Utenation. Though, you can't deny that your post wasn't intended to criticize the church and to put them in a bad light. I try not to take too much offense over, but I will only tolerate so much. Either way, can you guys please keep this non-development related criticism towards the LDS church off here?!
     
     
  #9055  
Old Posted Jun 7, 2014, 11:23 AM
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  #9056  
Old Posted Jun 7, 2014, 4:32 PM
Lilljemalm Lilljemalm is offline
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Originally Posted by Stenar View Post
If you did work for the Red Cross, you didn't know what the hell the organization was doing.

http://www.snopes.com/medical/emergent/redcross.asp

Origins: The Red Cross has long been dogged by the persistent belief that it extracts payment for its services from victims of disaster. In the wake of Hurricane Katrina, that notion surfaced again, this time asserting those left homeless and desperate were being charged for coffee, cups of juice and cookies.

The rumor is false. The Red Cross does not solicit payment for services rendered from the folks it is called upon to assist during times of emergency. The American Red Cross says on its page about disaster preparedness for seniors: "All American Red Cross emergency services are provided free of charge." Southeast Michigan Red Cross web site's 'Ask Us' page says:
Q: How much does American Red Cross disaster assistance cost?

A: All American Red Cross disaster assistance is free, made possible by the voluntary donations of time and money from the American people. Disaster assistance is given free-of-charge without judgment or a promise of support.

Read more at http://www.snopes.com/medical/emergent/redcross.asp#chUPYfICCu2CTRal.99




I was there, too, and as a Red Cross worker at the time, we did bill those who recieved assistance. The director did go out, but to discuss the use of lds facilities. Your subject did come up, and he did clarify the Red Cross' part in it, but lds donations were not linked to it out of respect for the lds church. That is all.
[/QUOTE]

At the time, I flew to salt lake to meet with the director and presiding bishop to discuss the matter. We had been charging people, calling it a donation. The rc would send a notice out telling people that it cost x dollars to help them out and a donation for that amount was requested. The bp called the Red Cross on it in that meeting and it was stopped. The church did not want people to think that they were required to pay for services rendered on lds property at time of emergency, nor does the church charge for emergency relief. Also, large contributors, like the lds church, are allowed to earmark donations to specific causes and projects. The pb did not say contributions would stop over the condom issue, but did say that the church did not approve as it was felt that it would be a bad reflection on the church. I think you can understand the inappropriateness of a church that teaches chastity to pay for condoms. For the rc, that was enough to adjust its funding of the project because the rc tries to respect the beliefs and standards of its major contributors. There was no coercion or manipulation. In matter of fact, your organization had a hard time selling the director on the project to begin with, but that's another story.
The contributions that came from the lds church at the time were being put into the general fund to be used at will..no strings attached, but the director made the decision to point them to other things away from your project. Other major contributors tell the Red Cross where their contributions can be used. The lds church generally did not do that. I don't know what the current relationship is as I am no longer involved with the rc.
This is a good example that can be applied to business and development. The floor workers usually see a very different picture than the executive suite and communication between the two is rarely the best or thorough. In a large organization, it's harder to do. In a volunteer oriented organization like the rc, it's even more difficult, because the floor workers are there for only a short period of time and do not have the opportunity to see the whole picture at any time.
Sometimes those on the floor have great ideas, but the higher ups do't see it and those on the floor are unaware of the the minutia and judgement calls going on amongst management. Management is sometimes unaware of things, too, and makes poor decisions. Whenever anything happens that causes an uproar on the factory floor, one should always discount the general reaction that is usually based on rumor and misunderstanding, and ask what the real story is. I get the impression that future mayor does this. Those who do find it easier to climb the corporate ladder, etc.
Now let's get back to finding some one to develope those parking lots in downtown slc.

Last edited by Lilljemalm; Jun 7, 2014 at 5:23 PM.
     
     
  #9057  
Old Posted Jun 7, 2014, 4:41 PM
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Your HTML needs some work!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Orlando View Post
There are boundaries for civil discussion and just because you think you can say whatever you want to say on here doesn't mean you should or that you can on here Ute Nation. Your very negative and antagonist comment towards a religion and a people should not be tolerated. Do you think it would be okay for you to say something like that in a professional situation? How would you feel if people were to say that kind of stuff on here about what you believe?! Do you think it's right to say anything of hateful or mean-spirited comments directly insulting someone or a group on here? What about Muslims who wear the full garb and pray five times a day?! What about Jews? What about Hindus? Or what about Atheists? Maybe you are one. The point is that kind if comment does not belong on here?!! And, I absolutely refuse to tolerate any of that towards my faith on here! Sure, some commentary or disagreement of what the Lds church is doing in regards to development should be tolerated on here, but any direct insulting towards them or any other group is another story.
Can you please outline these boundaries? Or is it just: if it offends Orlando, well then you're crossing the line?

Also, religions are not above criticism. And fyi, atheism is not a religion. It just means: non-theist. All religions are faith based. Atheism is not a religion because there is no faith involved.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RosePark View Post
So we are bashing organizations based on hearsay, conjecture, and the hypothetical now?..
No one is bashing; It's a legitimate criticism.

Perhaps the lds church would lose it's political power in Utah if tax exemption for faith based organizations were revoked nationwide.

Last edited by Old&New; Jun 7, 2014 at 5:24 PM.
     
     
  #9058  
Old Posted Jun 7, 2014, 4:49 PM
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SLC Projects SLC Projects is offline
Bring out the cranes...
 
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.............................meanwhile................back at the construction sites......Cranes are swinging.

Last edited by SLC Projects; Jun 8, 2014 at 7:21 PM.
     
     
  #9059  
Old Posted Jun 7, 2014, 5:08 PM
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Thumbs down

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Originally Posted by SLC Projects View Post
.............................meanwhile................back at the constitution sites......Cranes are swinging.
I noticed yesterday. Are they at the PAC site?

PS. I did not mean to put the thumbs down.
     
     
  #9060  
Old Posted Jun 7, 2014, 5:17 PM
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Bring out the cranes...
 
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Originally Posted by ToysNoiz View Post
I noticed yesterday. Are they at the PAC site?

PS. I did not mean to put the thumbs down.
LOL, I was just trying to get this thread back on track. I haven't been downtown. ( staying away this weekend ) but somebody on here did say he/she did notice a new crane up at the ESA Marriott site.
     
     
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