DENVER | Transportation Thread

[wong21fr]

Originally Posted by Wizened Variations

This type of problem extends also to the Bus Station. As the station is huge (due to it filling a space originally meant to contain DUS light rail) a higher percentage of buses that serve local communities in a 5 mile radius in an arc north of Colfax will now stop at the Underground in their route. How will this, for example, affect north-south local bus schedules for those who use buses that have no need to travel through the DUS Station Complex?

The bus station isn't filling a space that was meant for light rail. The original plan (before it was redesigned to meet the budget constraints) had the light rail entering a tunnel off the CML at 16th, traveling down 16th to a three-platform station adjacent to the subterranean commuter rail tracks, turning up 18th and coming out of tunnel at the CML with trackage running both north and south as the Gold Line was originally envisioned to be LRT. The bus terminal would have been in front of Union Station along Wazee under the public plaza.

[Cirrus]

You're describing a problem with transfers that would exist regardless of whether or not DUS were a through station. Pretend it were a through station, and trains from (say) the SW corridor continued on to the airport. What about the west corridor, or the SE corridor, or Boulder? You can't run trains from every corridor through onto literally every other corridor; you pick one and everyone else transfers. So at best you eliminate maybe a quarter of the transfers by doing run-through. You'd still face the same limitation for any other non-downtown destination: DTC, Federal Center, whatever. You're describing limitations inherent to any hub-and-spoke transit system. Making DUS a through station wouldn't change them.

I do agree that DUS is too spread out. If you design your system around everyone transferring at one spot, that one spot should be as convenient as possible. But that problem is not due to lacking run-through service. At most, being a stub station exacerbates it a bit, but the real problem there is not that DUS is a stub.

[DenverTrans]

Of course, in many systems, the transfer is on the same platform for at least some of the connections. Washington, Philadelphia, etc. have branches bundled into trunk lines. Trunk lines often make connections simpler. As you noted, hubs can be designed to make connections as fast as possible (in school, Hong Kong was used as an example).

[bunt_q]

Let's not lose sight of the fact that we are not really expecting many transfers to begin with. We are primarily a downtown-based commuter system; there are not a whole lot of destinations served by transfers. The main complaint seems to be with airport-bound riders. But those are special trips to being with - they are somewhat infrequent trips for most people, and there is an expectation that they take longer. What other trip type arrives 90-minutes early? For what other trip type is remote parking that charges $8/day and requires a 30-minute bus shuttle transfer even conceivable? I think the Union Station transfer will be just fine for airport-bound transfers. And I don't expect that there will be many of the other kind. So it's really a non-issue. My issue with the spread-outness of Union Station has more to do with the fact that we pushed our main light rail and bus stations an extra ~4 blocks from the CBD, necessitating a longer shuttle/transfer ride for nearly everybody who uses the facility on a daily basis. That's the far larger concern; forget the half dozen or so transfers who will have to walk farther. Frankly, our system is far too slow to accommodate choice riders who have destinations outside of the core (our transit is a downtown parking substitute, we all know this) - it's only the transit dependent population that transfers, and for them, Union Station's design will still beat a transfer at a street corner.

Cue Wizened's response that we'll all be transit-dependent in a few years when the American (global?) economy collapses and we all slip into sudden abject poverty, the likes of which western humankind hasn't known since the 13th Century. For him, that's when our shortsightedness will bite us. For the rest of us non-doomsayers, it'll be just fine. Wizened's generation will die off, and the rest us will continue to drive anyways, on remote-controlled and solar powered roadways, which some lazy millennial whose aging bones ache when he rides his bicycle will find a way to make economical.

[Cirrus]

Our impending apocalypse is a moot point. Third world countries can't afford to maintain glimmery train systems. If we really become that poor, our transit system will be school buses. We'll have bigger problems than the convenience of transfers at Union Station.

[bunt_q]

Picturing my children riding chicken buses down to Colorado Springs to see grandma and help repair the thatching on her roof once a year. Only the morning run, though, wouldn't want to get caught on the highway after dark.

[RyanD]

So I made an adorable little chart for the transit options I took throughout the week. Now that I live in Cory-Merrill, it's not a hop skip and a jump to things I want to do. However, I feel like I don't need to depend on my car most of the week, which is still a nice feeling. Oh, I should also add that my bike got stolen recently, so the lack of biking is because I have lack of bike. Once I get a new bike, there will be a lot more on there.

[bunt_q]

Looks like Cory Merrill is a pretty central neighborhood to me. You have both bcycle and car2go available. I have neither, despite probably living in a denser area.

You should include times and costs. For an impartial analysis (for those of us who don't feel the car is inherently bad).

[JiminyCricket II]

So this is a rendering of a Park-n-Ride for a southern extension of LRT in the Seattle area, did you guys know the extension would go this far south/east??

[Wizened Variations]

Originally Posted by wong21fr

The bus station isn't filling a space that was meant for light rail. The original plan (before it was redesigned to meet the budget constraints) had the light rail entering a tunnel off the CML at 16th, traveling down 16th to a three-platform station adjacent to the subterranean commuter rail tracks, turning up 18th and coming out of tunnel at the CML with trackage running both north and south as the Gold Line was originally envisioned to be LRT. The bus terminal would have been in front of Union Station along Wazee under the public plaza.

I remember that. The orthodox excuse was that due to liability insurance issues between running LRT parallel to heavy rail freight tracks. Issues about potential liabilities were brought up by the freight industry as a result of an accident in California on a heavy rail due freight and passenger line.

Another reason, IMO, was the insistence that the LRT have to run underground through Lodo in this scenario. The problem was not just cost of construction, but also the insistence that the LRT not run through DUS on the surface, as this would diminish surface square footage of the potential commercial development in the old rail yard.

Obviously, the original proposal was extremely expensive, but, what the original proposal served to do was lay the groundwork on the highest priority in foot print being commercial development, at the expense of running the LRT at surface.

There never was any serious proposal to run the LRT, at surface, through Lodo to the Gold line. As various proposals were put forth, IMO, no "saleable" options on surface running the through DUS were publicly discussed.

There was considerable public discussion about extending the LRT on 38th Ave. I also remember some talk about running the LRT in a loop where the line would tie in to the 18th Street LRT circular connection.

The "Northwest" argument was official shelved due to the difficulties 4 car trains in handling right-of-way and turning radii issues. The problem would relate to having a 3 or 4 track yard where the LRT DUS station tail tracks are now, so that trains could be sorted, which would further reduce the potential commercial development footprint. Without a couple of switching tracks, 4 car (and possibly 3) car trains could not be broken down, which would affect the length of trains from the future W line and the Corridor lines). Similar talk was raised about tying in the DUS LRT line with the Stout/California circular on via a 19th/20th Street approach, but the problem here had more to do with the position of Coors field and Mr Monfort more than any number of LRT cars issue.


Since the defeat of RTDs metro wide public transportation effort in November of 1998 the issue has been how to maximize the surface footprint for commercial development.

The first concrete result was re-routing the alignment to the north edge of the rail yard property, instead of the pre 1998 election right-of-way proposal which would have extended southwest from RTD's Union Station property through the Pepsi center location. Around this time, proposals were floated publically such as the subway loop, and, later, a subway terminal for the same LRT line.

The property boundaries which are occupied by the Underground and the LRT, date, I would suspect, to a couple of years before construction of Central Platte spur began in 2001.


See


* https://www.google.com/maps/place/LoDo/@...76c78c309781fbb:0xfa51804416e57e70?hl=en

[Wizened Variations]

Originally Posted by bunt_q

Cue Wizened's response that we'll all be transit-dependent in a few years when the American (global?) economy collapses and we all slip into sudden abject poverty, the likes of which western humankind hasn't known since the 13th Century. For him, that's when our shortsightedness will bite us. For the rest of us non-doomsayers, it'll be just fine. Wizened's generation will die off, and the rest us will continue to drive anyways, on remote-controlled and solar powered roadways, which some lazy millennial whose aging bones ache when he rides his bicycle will find a way to make economical.

You do not use public transportation. More importantly, you do not have to.

That is a very important root cause to your observations about DUS and public transportation in general. Those that for their forseeable future will have the means to live an auto centered existence will.*

I,in any of my discussions, have not suggested that mass public transportation is what the masses wish for. Instead, Bunt, I have argued that the percentage of the metropolitan population that cannot afford to commute via a car will rise.

The question, then, is how does one prepare for such an increase when one can only "guestimate" what and when this will be?

I do believe, however, that looking at world energy, resources, food, water, and, projected population numbers that living expenses here in the US (and over most of the world) will continue to rise in real dollars for the worker bees.These worker bees will have their families (if they want to),live in apartments, condos, and single family residences, and do the best that they can to provide for their families. The issue is related to how the worker bees budget their income: how will the matrix containing food, shelter, heat, taxes, medical expenses, entertainment, etc., vary as the price of energy and resources rise?

The insurance industry calculated generations ago actuary tables, whereby odds of mortality could be prorated such that the risk could be calculated. As time has passed, this modeling and odds calculation has grown to where transactions are hedged.

This hedging is all that I recommend: hedge now by putting in public transportation infrastructure that can rapidly expand to handle a high probability of increased demand while the cost in real dollars (actually) is low.

Yes, my bunch will die off, and your team will have their try. But, I guarantee you that those of us who have had our time at bat before you and hedged our bets to your benefit, you will be thankful for.

*excluding the idealists and those that prefer public transportation over auto usage and have the means to be auto centered if they so desire.

[Cirrus]

Originally Posted by JiminyCricket II

So this is a rendering of a Park-n-Ride for a southern extension of LRT in the Seattle area, did you guys know the extension would go this far south/east??

God, I hope those trains have bathrooms.

[bunt_q]

It's funny that the most pessimistic generation is the one that had the easiest go of it (really, in the history of our species). I suppose if I had started with so much and squandered it, I would be pessimistic too. We'll be fine. And I doubt we'll have much at all to thank the boomers for it.

[Wizened Variations]

Originally Posted by bunt_q

It's funny that the most pessimistic generation is the one that had the easiest go of it (really, in the history of our species). I suppose if I had started with so much and squandered it, I would be pessimistic too. We'll be fine. And I doubt we'll have much at all to thank the boomers for it.

If you had started with it you very likely would have squandered it too. Not only that, but odds are your squandering will cause you children's generation to hate you (until they grow up and have to deal with their own mistakes).

I am not concerned with philosophy, just good old common sense. Unlike many of my generation which I will not defend any more than I would expect you to defend yours (how many even bother to learn Chinese while they are still young enough to be able to?), only what I have done.

You see, Bunt, while I know you have been outside the country, you haven't really learned the lesson that the world is changing very very rapidly. Many teenagers are studying 20 to 40 hours a week in high school in order to have to pass a test that will determine their future! Many people worldwide speak multiple languages. A surprising amount can write fair code and sit down and handle functional analysis. In many nations, people are more tablet, iphone, lap top, and, PC literate than in the US. Many people world wide STUDY the internet, taking advantage of free courses on YouTube from MIT, for example (something free on Zeta functions, for example). Compared to many, world wide, your US generation is full of lazy, and soft early middle age babies.

Your generation is being left in the dust, and, blaming your parents will not deter your international competition from eating what you believe to be is your food.

Your generation is so much like us because we believed (and too many still believe) that we have some indomitable right to be better than the rest of the world. Which you ain't, buddy.

[PLANSIT]

Not a big news day (weekend), so this will have to be good enough:

Denver's newest B-cycle station puts bike parking on street

Read more: Denver's newest B-cycle station puts bike parking on street - The Denver Post http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_258430...-station-puts-bike-parking#ixzz32wkqZGyg
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Denver's bike-sharing program has installed its first on-street station.

The rest of the check-in/check-out locations in B-cycle's 83-station network in central Denver are on sidewalks, but the station at 11th Avenue and Delaware Street is the first to occupy a parking lane. Posts separate the station from the traffic lane.

Denver Public Works worked with B-cycle to accommodate the on-street station, a news release says. Biking advocates see the on-street station as a way to increase bicycling's visibility and to encourage drivers to share the road.

Mayor Michael Hancock and Denver B-cycle Executive Director Nick Bohnenkamp were set to speak at a dedication news conference for the station Tuesday. The 11:30 a.m. event was planned at Galvanize, 1062 Delaware St., a shared office space for start-ups.

[Cirrus]

on-street station as a way to increase bicycling's visibility and to encourage drivers to share the road.

And it more efficiently uses street space! Parking for 12 vehicles replaces parking for 2, probably. The oobrien bikeshare data map tells me this station was completely full at 6:00 am, completely empty at 7:00, gradually filled completely back up by 11:00, dropped down to around half by 1:00, and is currently 75% full. That's well over 30 users. Even if you assume that initial burst from 6:00-7:00 am had something to do with installation, you're still talking about probably 20 users so far today.

It's possible 20-30 cars would've come and gone from those parking spaces in that same time span, but I doubt it considering 1) there's no retail there for people to be hopping in and out of, 2) the buildings on both sides of the street at that location have off-street parking, and 3) according to Google Street View the on-street parking on that block is half empty anyway, indicating low demand.

[bobg]

Haven't been there yet so correct me if I am wrong but isn't the b-cycle station basically here https://www.google.com/maps/@39.733737,-...3m4!1e1!3m2!1sPD8yyRrFmxrn3tXca2RUVQ!2e0

If so the station is being paid for and requested by Galvanize the only business that fronts that street, and at least as of 2011 the space wasn't being used for anything at all. So it doesn't seem like a dramatic leap to me.

[RyanD]

Originally Posted by bunt_q

Looks like Cory Merrill is a pretty central neighborhood to me. You have both bcycle and car2go available. I have neither, despite probably living in a denser area.

You should include times and costs. For an impartial analysis (for those of us who don't feel the car is inherently bad).

I only logged my commute times but I'll remember to do that with everything else once I take transit outside my now normal bus commute.

Costs are incredibly minimal because I have an Eco Pass. I'll also log when I get gas for my car.

As for Car2Go... Well, I forgot I had an account credit...

[bunt_q]

Originally Posted by RyanD

I only logged my commute times but I'll remember to do that with everything else once I take transit outside my now normal bus commute.

Costs are incredibly minimal because I have an Eco Pass. I'll also log when I get gas for my car.

As for Car2Go... Well, I forgot I had an account credit...

Eco-passes shouldn't count if we expect to be able to extrapolate your data. Not that I don't think all transit should be free - or everybody should get an eco-pass - either would be sweet. But it's not, and they don't.

For the record, I am okay with pulling out two on-street spaces or whatever for a b-cycle station. That'll probably come as a shock to many.

[Brainpathology]

Originally Posted by bunt_q

Eco-passes shouldn't count if we expect to be able to extrapolate your data. Not that I don't think all transit should be free - or everybody should get an eco-pass - either would be sweet. But it's not, and they don't.

For the record, I am okay with pulling out two on-street spaces or whatever for a b-cycle station. That'll probably come as a shock to many.

Right, it starts with two and that's fine when no one stands up for that tiny minority. Everyone watching as if it won't happen to them. But if you're ok with those two helpless parking spaces eventually they will all be taken. And then you'll only have your apathy and inaction when the little guy was bullied to blame.