PITTSBURGH | Development Rundown II

[BrianTH]

Pittsburgh is one the safest large U.S. metros for walkers. As pointed out in a comment, this likely goes along with it being a popular place to walk:

http://www.post-gazette.com/local/city/2...afe-for-pedestrians/stories/201405200113

Definitely something to promote to prospective residents.

[popstar]

http://www.post-gazette.com/local/city/2...afe-for-pedestrians/stories/201405200113

I actually think Pittsburgh is very unsafe for pedestrians. Good luck getting anybody to stop for you while waiting at a cross walk. I've literally waited for more than 5-10 minutes at cross walks along Penn Ave by Spak Brothers and Liberty Avenue near Silky's in Bloomfield trying to cross at a cross walk while drivers just zoomed by. It makes me even more angry when I have a stroller or my two little boys on foot. I've had the same experience all over the city, though... And you're taking your life into your own hands sometimes even if there's a stop sign with the cross walk. I'm not very well-traveled, but I have a hard time believing that there's the same kind of disregard for pedestrians in other cities. I always thought this was a big area we could improve upon, not something to be celebrated. But who knows - maybe the rest of the country is even worse. Silly anecdotal rant of a post, I know, but curious if anybody else feels this way or has noticed this? What can Peduto or other city leaders do about this (that is, if they thought it was even important enough to focus on)?

[Evergrey]

Originally Posted by popstar

http://www.post-gazette.com/local/city/2...afe-for-pedestrians/stories/201405200113

I actually think Pittsburgh is very unsafe for pedestrians. Good luck getting anybody to stop for you while waiting at a cross walk. I've literally waited for more than 5-10 minutes at cross walks along Penn Ave by Spak Brothers and Liberty Avenue near Silky's in Bloomfield trying to cross at a cross walk while drivers just zoomed by. It makes me even more angry when I have a stroller or my two little boys on foot. I've had the same experience all over the city, though... And you're taking your life into your own hands sometimes even if there's a stop sign with the cross walk. I'm not very well-traveled, but I have a hard time believing that there's the same kind of disregard for pedestrians in other cities. I always thought this was a big area we could improve upon, not something to be celebrated. But who knows - maybe the rest of the country is even worse. Silly anecdotal rant of a post, I know, but curious if anybody else feels this way or has noticed this? What can Peduto or other city leaders do about this (that is, if they thought it was even important enough to focus on)?

Perhaps Pittsburgh is not as safe as it could be regarding pedestrians... but it's much safer than most other major American cities thanks to its narrow street network that suburban motorists love to complain about. Try walking around Houston or Phoenix or Jacksonville or Tulsa or Cleveland. The rest of the country really is much worse when it comes to pedestrian safety.

[BrianTH]

Yep, Pittsburgh may not be a walker's paradise, but it is much better than most U.S. cities of comparable size. In fact the only places in the U.S. I am aware of that would be much better are college-town type places. And even in such places, there are plenty of conflicts between drivers and walkers, but the walkers often "win" those conflicts either through mass of numbers, or sometimes aggressive enforcement of norms (e.g., yelling at drivers, banging on cars, etc.).

That's not to say there is no room for improvement. I think many studies have led to the same conclusions--basically, drivers need to be "educated" with real-life experiences in sharing streets with walkers and bikers, and also need to be kept aware of the possible presence of walkers and bikers.

One thing that can help is more low-speed areas where walkers and bikers are not necessarily confined to their own small parts of the street (like crosswalks). The new Market Square is more or less functioning like that, and I'd love to see something like that emerge in Smallman next to the Produce Terminal, Broad Street in East Liberty, and so on.

Another thing that can help is better signals, signage, sharrows, and stuff like that.

Finally, there appears to be no real substitute for simply having more walkers and bikers out and about. So anything we can do to encourage more walking and biking in general--in terms of more trails, more "complete" street design, better transit, more mixed-use neighborhoods, and on and on--is de facto also going to contribute to improved safety.

[JLuginbill]

Originally Posted by popstar

I jumped out of my car and took a peak at the orange sign.... Something about minor changes to accommodate retail and 16 new parking stalls. New parking stalls!! Hooray!

I believe an Autozone has a ZBA hearing on June 5th for purchase of the Babyland site.

ELDI, BGC, FCG, and community members are in the process of talking with volunteer attorneys to oppose the development of an Autozone on the corner of Penn and Negley.

[AaronPGH]

Originally Posted by JLuginbill

I believe an Autozone has a ZBA hearing on June 5th for purchase of the Babyland site.

ELDI, BGC, FCG, and community members are in the process of talking with volunteer attorneys to oppose the development of an Autozone on the corner of Penn and Negley.

Holy shit. What an AWFUL use of space that would be!

[Evergrey]

Originally Posted by JLuginbill

I believe an Autozone has a ZBA hearing on June 5th for purchase of the Babyland site.

ELDI, BGC, FCG, and community members are in the process of talking with volunteer attorneys to oppose the development of an Autozone on the corner of Penn and Negley.

Ugh... an Autozone will absolutely destroy any opportunity to reclaim that post-apocalyptic void that severs East Liberty from Garfield/Friendship. OPPOSE!

[fonzi]

Originally Posted by Evergrey

Perhaps Pittsburgh is not as safe as it could be regarding pedestrians... but it's much safer than most other major American cities thanks to its narrow street network that suburban motorists love to complain about. Try walking around Houston or Phoenix or Jacksonville or Tulsa or Cleveland. The rest of the country really is much worse when it comes to pedestrian safety.

I lived in Phoenix for 15 years and can attest that it can be worse than Pittsburgh. Sometimes, one had to cross 8 lanes on the surface streets of Phx and the traffic is usually averaging 50mph, based on a 45mph limit on most major streets.

[popstar]

Originally Posted by fonzi

I lived in Phoenix for 15 years and can attest that it can be worse than Pittsburgh. Sometimes, one had to cross 8 lanes on the surface streets of Phx and the traffic is usually averaging 50mph, based on a 45mph limit on most major streets.

Thinking again about Pittsburgh's narrow streets and the existence of actual walkable neighborhoods, I take back my earlier comment about walkability. I lived in the Raleigh/Durham area for a while and was often frustrated by the car culture and sprawl of that area... and I imagine that it's much better in Raleigh/Durham than in most of these newer cities in the South and Southwest. However, I still think this is an area that Pittsburgh can improve upon.

[Austinlee]

^ I'm glad the article mentioned Florida as the worst. In my limited number of travels, it is. 6-8 lanes of super fast driving with absolutely NO concern for pedestrians. Zero. Near the beaches not so much, usually you can park in a garage or lot and use sidewalks to get to the sand but all the main roads? Good luck with that stroller.

[Evergrey]

Originally Posted by popstar

However, I still think this is an area that Pittsburgh can improve upon.

Agreed. American culture has just been very hostile to walkability in the past century. Luckily, Pittsburgh has more pedestrian assets than most US cities... which is reflected in our high rate of walking commuters. Our city must be vigilant in continuing to build upon our walkability... which is why the proposed Autozone at the Babyland property is so offensive and frustrating.

[ladsnine]

Originally Posted by BrianTH

The PG has published an editorial in favor of more parking requirements for residential developers, and maybe more public garages, Downtown:

http://www.post-gazette.com/opinion/editorials/2014/05/19/Space-race/stories/201405170015

If any thought was given to the case against such interventions, it was not apparent in that editorial, and I would suggest people could express some such thoughts in the comments.

Here in Buffalo, one of the most significant elements of our upcoming new zoning code is that it proposes to remove parking minimums completely citywide and depend on the free market to provide parking. Buffalo is a fairly conservative city (in terms of mindset, not politics) and one filled with intact historic but worn walkable neighborhoods and a good but not great transit system, much like Pittsburgh. As you might guess, in the public meetings here, this proposal has brought up a lot of heated arguments and counter-arguments similar to this editorial and it really brings out a lot of interesting aspects to the argument in a real-life application.

On one hand, there's something of an entitlement mentality, mostly from older people but not exclusively, of parking "as a right," people that stuck with the city for decades, through its darker years, who feel they deserve a street parking space and don't want competition for those spaces. Related to that, there is the very legitimate worry that the elderly won't be able to get groceries, moms won't be able to get their kids to soccer practice, etc., and suburbanites will patronize boutique stores in the city's vibrant retail strips less which would make those businesses less viable. On the flip side of the argument, cities are not competitive with the younger generation if they are dominated by parking and car culture, and having excess parking destroys vibrancy, creates gap-toothed urbanism, makes life hard for pedestrians/bikers, etc. and devalues public transit investment.

It's fascinating to watch the different viewpoints play out, and it'll be interesting to see if that aspect makes it into the final adopted code. Interestingly, the wealthiest and most vibrant neighborhoods are fighting hardest against this. The low-income neighborhoods generally seem to be for it.

(Sorry, I hope I'm not hijacking the thread. I just thought this might add a different perspective to this discussion about parking and walkability)

[Austinlee]

Originally Posted by Evergrey

Agreed. American culture has just been very hostile to walkability in the past century. Luckily, Pittsburgh has more pedestrian assets than most US cities...

American culture has also been hostile to land use, the planet, the arts, common decency. There's not much America has done right except be in the right place at the right time after WWII.

[Evergrey]

Originally Posted by ladsnine

Here in Buffalo, one of the most significant elements of our upcoming new zoning code is that it proposes to remove parking minimums completely citywide and depend on the free market to provide parking. Buffalo is a fairly conservative city (in terms of mindset, not politics) and one filled with intact historic but worn walkable neighborhoods and a good but not great transit system, much like Pittsburgh. As you might guess, in the public meetings here, this proposal has brought up a lot of heated arguments and counter-arguments similar to this editorial and it really brings out a lot of interesting aspects to the argument in a real-life application.

On one hand, there's something of an entitlement mentality, mostly from older people but not exclusively, of parking "as a right," people that stuck with the city for decades, through its darker years, who feel they deserve a street parking space and don't want competition for those spaces. Related to that, there is the very legitimate worry that the elderly won't be able to get groceries, moms won't be able to get their kids to soccer practice, etc., and suburbanites will patronize boutique stores in the city's vibrant retail strips less which would make those businesses less viable. On the flip side of the argument, cities are not competitive with the younger generation if they are dominated by parking and car culture, and having excess parking destroys vibrancy, creates gap-toothed urbanism, makes life hard for pedestrians/bikers, etc. and devalues public transit investment.

It's fascinating to watch the different viewpoints play out, and it'll be interesting to see if that aspect makes it into the final adopted code. Interestingly, the wealthiest and most vibrant neighborhoods are fighting hardest against this. The low-income neighborhoods generally seem to be for it.

(Sorry, I hope I'm not hijacking the thread. I just thought this might add a different perspective to this discussion about parking and walkability)

No need to apologize. Welcome to the discussion, I'm sure many of us appreciate your perspective. Growing up halfway between Pittsburgh and Buffalo, I have always rooted for the Queen City... and it seems that Buffalo has finally been re-urbanizing in recent years after many failed "silver bullet" projects. I can't wait to visit again... as it's been much too long.

[popstar]

Originally Posted by Austinlee

American culture has also been hostile to land use, the planet, the arts, common decency. There's not much America has done right except be in the right place at the right time after WWII.

Now, now, Austinlee... that's the kind of attitude that's going to get you banned from the new Toby Keith I Love that Bar and Grill before it even opens .

[Austinlee]

Originally Posted by popstar

Now, now, Austinlee... that's the kind of attitude that's going to get you banned from the new Toby Keith I Love that Bar and Grill before it even opens .

Aww shucks.... but I wanted to stick a boot in someone's ass.

[BrianTH]

The Rubino/Pfaffmann plan would turn the entire Produce Terminal into a big market, with a variety of tenants including "close out" specialists, new ventures by existing Strip businesses, "incubator" spaces, and so on:

http://www.post-gazette.com/local/city/2...olossal-marketplace/stories/201405210063

It is an intriguing idea in that it would do the most to turn the Produce Terminal into a public attraction. But I have concerns about the viability of that much new retail, and also about whether it would undermine the existing Strip business district.

[PghSH22]

Originally Posted by BrianTH

The Rubino/Pfaffmann plan would turn the entire Produce Terminal into a big market, with a variety of tenants including "close out" specialists, new ventures by existing Strip businesses, "incubator" spaces, and so on:

http://www.post-gazette.com/local/city/2...olossal-marketplace/stories/201405210063

It is an intriguing idea in that it would do the most to turn the Produce Terminal into a public attraction. But I have concerns about the viability of that much new retail, and also about whether it would undermine the existing Strip business district.

I always thought that this would be the ideal use of this space - the layout seems to lend itself so naturally to it, and if well done it could be pretty amazing (thinking of Pike Place in Seattle, Chelsea Market in NYC, Ferry Building Marketplace in San Fran, West Side Market in Cleveland, French Market in New Orleans, etc). As you said, I dont know about the viability of it in the current Pittsburgh market, but it seems that with all of the new residential construction going on in the Strip (including Buncher), the added permanent population to the area would be enough to make this work? Something like this also allows the space to be more of a community space and destination for those that dont live there, rather than just a residential area for those that do. Overall, I find this option to be by far the most appealing if executed well

[chiaroscuro]

Originally Posted by Austinlee

American culture has also been hostile to land use, the planet, the arts, common decency. There's not much America has done right except be in the right place at the right time after WWII.

I will defend (and have defended) to the death your right to say that.

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by PghSH22

As you said, I dont know about the viability of it in the current Pittsburgh market, but it seems that with all of the new residential construction going on in the Strip (including Buncher), the added permanent population to the area would be enough to make this work?

Possibly! I think it really depends on how many units Buncher is willing to include. I'd also note that more office space in the Strip could also contribute--lunchtime and after-work dining and shopping can be important contributors to making a market for this sort of thing.

Something like this also allows the space to be more of a community space and destination for those that dont live there, rather than just a residential area for those that do. Overall, I find this option to be by far the most appealing if executed well

I definitely agree on the potential. I'd particularly emphasize this would all work best if the area around the Terminal, particularly on the Smallman side, was reconfigured to become a great public space.



I think I have mentioned before as one possible inspiration the Main Square (Rynek Główny) in Krakow, with its long Cloth Hall (Sukiennice) being used as a market:







Something broadly like that--of course not as ornate, more Pittsburgh, and so forth--could be an amazing "main square" for the Strip, and indeed that whole part of Pittsburgh.