DENVER | Transportation Thread

[bunt_q]

Originally Posted by wong21fr

I think it's actually example number 6,987 of any mention of Boulder containing some kind of negativity. If you get butt-hurt over Boulder's stereotypical image of being uber-healthy, wealthy, and liberal than maybe work to dissuade it?

6,988. I'm surprised the Boulder folks even want the train still at this point. They'd lose their reclining sofa seats. That was the deal-breaker on using real BRT buses, right?

[Wizened Variations]

Originally Posted by bunt_q

6,988. I'm surprised the Boulder folks even want the train still at this point. They'd lose their reclining sofa seats. That was the deal-breaker on using real BRT buses, right?

https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&site......0...1ac.1.44.img..0.3.182.feRzrNOiAzw


That and money. BRTs can cost a lot of money, particularly if a buyer gets caught in the upper end rigs with multiple articulated sections etc.

So, just for argument's sake, imagine that US 36 was privately financed and that RTD had some kind of penalty arrangement if RTD's costs affected the consortium's costs, either directly or indirectly.

First thing you scratch are expensive buses. A low level articulated bus can set you back a lot of money, particularly if you are buying 50 of them, or so (reduced upfront costs). In addition, using standard buses eliminates much of the extra expenses that would be involved in station design due to bus length (reduced infrastructural costs for which RTD bears responsibility) Lastly, standard buses can make standard turns easier than an articulated bus, so clearances can be reduced, bus station lengths shortened, on and off ramps made with tighter turning radii, and, possibly with less load requirements (also reduced infrastructural costs for which RTD bears responsibility) due to bus weight.

But, then again, the bus choice might really be because of rider input.

[wong21fr]

Originally Posted by Wizened Variations

But, the granola bunch won't use it: the young college student going to Boulder, and, the working poor will use the bikes.

The college students are a passenger segment but I hardly think that the majority of commuters using the US-36 BRT are the working poor. The Boulder/Denver routes are commuter ones where the riders are opting to use the bus instead of their car to commute, not someone who doesn't have any other means of transportation.

Your average Boulder-Denver commuter has a car sitting at one of the Park-n-Rides or rode their bike from a $450K house near one of the stations using a subsidized Eco-Pass.

[Wizened Variations]

Originally Posted by wong21fr

The college students are a passenger segment but I hardly think that the majority of commuters using the US-36 BRT are the working poor. The Boulder/Denver routes are commuter ones where the riders are opting to use the bus instead of their car to commute, not someone who doesn't have any other means of transportation.

Your average Boulder-Denver commuter has a car sitting at one of the Park-n-Rides or rode their bike from a $450K house near one of the stations using a subsidized Eco-Pass.

You are probably right in part. (I was thinking more about traveling to Boulder.)

I know affluent Boulderites, visiting them for their great tofu centered vegan meals when I am sick of meat. Not one I know commutes to Denver via bus. All of them, however, know of someone who does, most often as a friend of a friend, or a coworker.*But, truthfully, the percentage of Boulder to Denver commuters who use the bus is very small.

Makes political sense, though.

*Most of my Boulder friends would not work in Denver: they think US 36 stinks and will continue to stink for many decades. An affluent Boulderite who commutes more than 10 miles to work is living beyond his means.

[Scottk]

Originally Posted by Launch 12

Example number 1143 or so of any and every reference to Boulder on this thread being negative. I will likely be reprimanded by this message as I have in the past for pointing this out.

They just hate the fact that Boulder is easier to get around then Denver using public transportation. They hate the fact that our transit service is better, and better connects the entire city of Boulder. They hate the fact that a far larger proportion of the Boulder population walks/bikes/uses public transportation to get to work when compared to Denver. They hate the fact that our cycling infrastructure is so sophisticated, and blows nearly every U.S. city out of the water.

It rubs them the wrong way that little Boulder is far less auto centric then Denver.

So they resort to stereotyping Boulder as "Granola eating hippies." Obviously no real people live in Boulder. Just hippies, and Prius drivers.

Fine...

Good luck commuting from cherry creek to downtown (or really any commute within Denver) Have fun with your massive impending traffic problems, and your woeful RTD service. Because really, the only transit service Denver has is a lightrail system that does a great drop of bringing suburbanites into downtown from a park n ride.

[Scottk]

Originally Posted by Wizened Variations

https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&site......0...1ac.1.44.img..0.3.182.feRzrNOiAzw


That and money. BRTs can cost a lot of money, particularly if a buyer gets caught in the upper end rigs with multiple articulated sections etc.

So, just for argument's sake, imagine that US 36 was privately financed and that RTD had some kind of penalty arrangement if RTD's costs affected the consortium's costs, either directly or indirectly.

First thing you scratch are expensive buses. A low level articulated bus can set you back a lot of money, particularly if you are buying 50 of them, or so (reduced upfront costs). In addition, using standard buses eliminates much of the extra expenses that would be involved in station design due to bus length (reduced infrastructural costs for which RTD bears responsibility) Lastly, standard buses can make standard turns easier than an articulated bus, so clearances can be reduced, bus station lengths shortened, on and off ramps made with tighter turning radii, and, possibly with less load requirements (also reduced infrastructural costs for which RTD bears responsibility) due to bus weight.

But, then again, the bus choice might really be because of rider input.

I thought that another contributing factor to this was the fact that the vast majority of standard articulated busses would not have enough power to make it up the hill between Boulder and McCaslin?

[RyanD]

Originally Posted by Scottk

They just hate the fact that Boulder is easier to get around then Denver using public transportation. They hate the fact that our transit service is better, and better connects the entire city of Boulder.
It rubs them the wrong way that little Boulder is far less auto centric then Denver.

So they resort to stereotyping Boulder as "Granola eating hippies." Obviously no real people live in Boulder. Just hippies, and Prius drivers.

Fine...

Good luck commuting from cherry creek to downtown (or really any commute within Denver) Have fun with your massive impending traffic problems, and your woeful RTD service. Because really, the only transit service Denver has is a lightrail system that does a great drop of bringing suburbanites into downtown from a park n ride.

Umm....

Boulder, Colorado:

Metro Population: 294,567
Metro Land Area: 25.7 Square Miles

Denver, Colorado:

Metro Population: 2,900,000
Metro Land Area: 8,414.4 Square Miles

Of course it's easier in Boulder because you only have to cover 0.3% of the landmass Denver has to. Your argument is ridiculous.

Oh by the way, I commute from a mile south of Cherry Creek to City Park West everyday. I took the bus today and got here 5 minutes EARLIER than I would have by car. Once again, your argument is for the sake of taking a stab at Denver, and you don't like your little B-town getting any negative feedback. Keep drinking the Kool-Aid man...

Also, when I lived in Boulder for a year, all I did was drive. I never stepped foot on a bus there because it didn't go where I needed it to.

Lastly, RTD has a huge presence in Boulder. If you don't remember, RTD is headquartered out of Denver; we kind of run your show. I wonder what would happen to your pubic "transportation" system if RTD wasn't involved with your little town...

[wong21fr]

Originally Posted by Scottk

So they resort to stereotyping Boulder as "Granola eating hippies." Obviously no real people live in Boulder. Just hippies, and Prius drivers.

Well, there are college students, but they don't count as "real" people either.

Boulder has got to be the most insecure city in Colorado, must be the slightly higher altitude.

[bcp]

Im so mad that a higher percent.of boulde walks / bikes than denver!!!

[bunt_q]

Originally Posted by Scottk

So they resort to stereotyping Boulder as "Granola eating hippies." Obviously no real people live in Boulder. Just hippies, and Prius drivers.

You have to be specific. Wealthy, white, hippies and Lexus liberals. Of course you can afford a great system, you banished anybody who wasn't sufficiently affluent from your "city" decades ago.

But no, normal only-semi-wealthy-and-mostly-white people like us down in Denver do not look on in envy when rich people have nice things. It's sort of to be expected.

We do, however, call you out when you whine about getting screwed by the system.

[Scottk]

Originally Posted by RyanD

Umm....

Lastly, RTD has a huge presence in Boulder. If you don't remember, RTD is headquartered out of Denver; we kind of run your show. I wonder what would happen to your pubic "transportation" system if RTD wasn't involved with your little town...

You misunderstood me.

Of course boulder is dependent upon RTD... It is the transit agency that serves us.. Besides VIA... for the hop. I was just saying that Denver's rtd service is woeful within city limits. & this is true. I see forum members here constantly lamenting the lack of real transit service within Denver.

[Scottk]

Originally Posted by bunt_q

You have to be specific. Wealthy, white, hippies and Lexus liberals. Of course you can afford a great system, you banished anybody who wasn't sufficiently affluent from your "city" decades ago.

But no, normal only-semi-wealthy-and-mostly-white people like us down in Denver do not look on in envy when rich people have nice things. It's sort of to be.

So it comes down to the fact that you dislike people that are wealthier than you???

That is all I get from your post. Which is ironic, because I am almost certainly poorer than you.

[bunt_q]

Not at all. I dislike hypocrites. I am all for being wealthy, just not the types of wealthy people who love poor people so long as they never see them. If you're going to screw people, do it to their face I say.

[Wizened Variations]

I finally broke down and scoped the Lodo Bus station out.

My objections that I have made for years are still valid. The layout stinks in terms of no platform to platform transfer between light rail and commuter rail, and, no same seat north/south connections.

That aside, some minor complaints:

A) The entrance to the Underground from Union Station is going a miserable S**during the winter. The canopied space and the escalator pair with central stair case are going to miserable and cold, with little or no direct sun. In addition, only 1 week after opening the up escalator was a clunking away, and, as it is going to be out in the open during all kinds of weather, I suspect users will have to take the stairs more often than they would like.

I realize that many here have not had to walk down wet stairs during the winter at transit stations, but those of you who have used the NYC subway know exactly what I mean. The stairs become slippery and covered with a thin mud composed of deicer, dirt from shoes, and, slush, punctuated with discarded cigarette butts.

B) South of the 7 skylights, before the north commuter rail exit escalator, the place already looks dark. Wait until the place gets the layer of grit composed of miscellaneous residue.

C) The 7 skylights would be a real blast to cover with graffiti and all one has to do on the surface is to just paint on a most perfect easel (on the surface above the underground, one can literally bend over and look down through the skylights).

(the central double skylight is the only one that works well. The others, even if kept clean are not going to help much in the winter, even without snow covering them.

D) The Chestnut Exit and it's twin, while having very nice weather protected escalators have a total of 14 or so feet for street exit, around an elevator. Both need to be opened up by the escalators which while breaking the artistic line would work far better (talk about people jams, add disabled people using the elevator and we're talking about a real mess.) This needs to fixed soon.

E) The canopy over the commuter rails provides less weather protection than a foo foo drink umbrella might provide. While it looks neat, people will curse the thing about the 10th time they have to wait in the snow.

(of course the stampedes from the Underground to departing trains in inclement weather will be the stuff of legends.)

F) The station with it's 8 tracks has to handle 3 different coach heights: Amtrak's low level access, the DIA lines high level access, and, possibly a third level relating to duel level commuter cars pulled by diesel locomotives. The rails are laid on cement so changing this to accommodate future demand is not as simple as it seems.*

G) The loooooooong walk. The place really is hard on the infirm and the 1100' walk end to end is a real pain.

*********
1. I did like the new free shuttle, but, the critter is really slow during high car traffic periods. The lane routing needs to be tweaked, and, some street side parking needs to be removed.

Unless the frequency increases greatly, taking the new shuttle to go from one end of the Underground to the other makes little sense.

2. I really like the northbound exit ramp that connects the bus Underground with the highway grid on the south Rather awesome: no street lights, a straight shot out. The north exit is not nearly as well designed with multiple stopped lighted intersections to gain freeway entrance and multiple lights to pass through when entered the Underground from the north.

********
World class rating: D (lower 1/3)
US rating: B+ (I would give it an A but the legacy train stations in NYC, Philly,and the to be expanded Union Station in DC bump it's rating down.)

*I had to bring this up because due to the station having to handle rail passenger cars with different access heights from track level, the station, per rail to platform height, is a very small, limited capacity creature. Really small.

[bcp]

I was.thinking...they really need.to list the LRT tracks as tracks numbers 9 and 10....who cares what the mode is, this would help the newbies and clarify the signage bigtime

[Wizened Variations]

Originally Posted by Scottk

I thought that another contributing factor to this was the fact that the vast majority of standard articulated busses would not have enough power to make it up the hill between Boulder and McCaslin?

Articulated buses come in a huge range of sizes and flavors. I am sure that power would not be much of an issue, for that matter, neither would be how seating was arranged on such buses.

The issue is cost, IMO. A very competent articulated BRT bus approaches low end light rail vehicles in price, particularly one with good hill climbing capacity and lush interiors. (Something our new free shuttle specified out to highway speeds, good hill climbing abilities, and lounge seats.)

If the US 36 "BRT" really takes off, I suspect that regular city buses will be used for a kind of local service and high level coaches for a more express like Boulder to Denver travel. I think that a luxury express ticket might be worth an extra dollar or two, with end to end travel times around 35 minutes!

[Zmapper]

Somewhat like the story making the rounds of French railroad SNCF ordering too wide rail vehicles, I discovered today that the MAX guideway is too small, at only 22' wide, for two buses to pass each other at full speed with enough room for error. Transfort procedure is for the southbound bus to come to a complete stop within its lane while the northbound bus slows to 20 mph.

A retrofit of the guideway to be similar to the one constructed in Cambridge, UK, by installing concrete blocks along the sides and median, and retrofitting the buses with guide wheels, may permit the buses to not have to stop by reducing any error room.

[electricron]

Originally Posted by Wizened Variations

If the US 36 "BRT" really takes off, I suspect that regular city buses will be used for a kind of local service and high level coaches for a more express like Boulder to Denver travel. I think that a luxury express ticket might be worth an extra dollar or two, with end to end travel times around 35 minutes!

The problem with high level buses is accommodating wheelchair or mobility impaired passengers. It was already going to be difficult for them with split platforms on different on/off ramps having to cross the highway to reach park & ride lots. I've never liked the US36 BRT station plans.

[Wizened Variations]

Originally Posted by electricron

The problem with high level buses is accommodating wheelchair or mobility impaired passengers. It was already going to be difficult for them with split platforms on different on/off ramps having to cross the highway to reach park & ride lots. I've never liked the US36 BRT station plans.

The US 36 Project as well as almost all of RTD infrastructural efforts is reverse engineered from a bottom line cost, not from public need.

The issue on US 36 was to get a special transportation package of some kind to serve the Boulder-Denver corridor quickly (and finally). This had become political dynamite for RTD, as by not putting Boulder in the infrastructural build out loop, RTD was creating a group of educated, vocal, and, angry voters.

A bit of background:

The BNSF railroad through clever cost escalations, ruled out the possibility of direct rail service to Denver. Skyrocketing cost estimates, combined with CDOT politics and the horrible Goldman Sachs brokered financial agreement to privatize much of the construction and road maintenance on US 36, have resulted in a slow, but steady stripping away of BRT features.

Conclusion:

Of course, all this financial retrenchment will be excused with highly specific surveys whose format will skew survey data towards conclusions that RTD wants. A good example of this might be how high level buses are desired on the route from a survey of Boulder to Denver commuters without including those who might want to use the service for on a segment of the US 36 route.

I expect the BRT built along US 36 to be ineffectual, and, something one might expect to be built in 2014 in Lagos, Nigeria, not in Mumbai, India.

[wong21fr]

Originally Posted by electricron

The problem with high level buses is accommodating wheelchair or mobility impaired passengers. It was already going to be difficult for them with split platforms on different on/off ramps having to cross the highway to reach park & ride lots. I've never liked the US36 BRT station plans.

Just how much design consideration should be given to less than 1% of commuting market? Disabled and mobility impaired passengers already cause disruptions due to their slower debarking/embarking times and they disproportionately fall into the subsidized passenger category due to their income levels and consumption.

They should be treated as they are in Mumbai, India- left in the streets or confined to a house in the village.