PHILADELPHIA | Highrise Development Thread IX

[techchallenger]

Originally Posted by Cro Burnham

I'm not anti-union in general, but the Philadelphia building trades and public worker unions are largely short-sighted and pigheaded.

Having said that, sure I would live in such a high rise. I'm sure the Goldtex is great, for example. To generalize that non-union built highrises are unsafe is as silly and ridiculous as saying that all unions are bad.

I wonder why so many people feel compelled to view this issue in extreme terms when it is obvious that it far more nuanced than that.

Unions are not evil.

Non-union buildings are not unsafe.

I don't think all non-union buildings/labor is unsafe, but if I was looking for a new-construction living situation (the purchase of a condo for example) I would certainly prefer to purchase one built by tradesmen who I know for certain have had years of training learning their trade. Do I hire a 690 plumber to renovate my bathroom? No. Do I think every workplace requires a union? No. Personally, I think Goldtex looks like hell and based on the flyers I've seen for their 'events' and what I've read about the developers are I would never live there. That being said, I don't think there should be armed goons in the streets blocking delivery trucks to their project.

[Cro Burnham]

Philaw, of course I am equivocating, because it is not an all or nothing proposition. Under various circumstances, some kinds of unions will do good. Under others they won't. Some unions do no good at all. Circumstances vary by time, place, industry, etc. Federal law, its formulation, and its enforcement are far from unbiased and do not guarantee protection of those at the bottom of the skill hierarchy from exploitation. Exploitation really happens, even here, even now. I know it's hard to believe. Labor organization can offer one means of combatting it.

You seem incapable of accepting that this is not a logit model, or that I am not stating 100% union support or even close to that. I am not a lawyer, obviously, and have no interest in advocating, academic debate society fashion, for a single, extreme, untenable position.

[PhiLaw]

Here's a bit about why Americans are fleeing the suburbs (hyperbolic, but of course it's yahoo!):

http://finance.yahoo.com/blogs/daily-ticker/why-americans-are-fleeing-the-suburbs-155653589.html

Cro, it seems you're taking a binary position, not me. I agree with you that laws cannot account for every circumstance that confronts works. By why is the union the answer? Why not increased deterrence for employer's engaging in harmful conduct? How come it's an issue of unions versus no unions? Why not no unions versus some other formulation we haven't thought of yet? Why are unions the answer to the problem you laid out?

If there are some circumstances in which unions do good (and I agree that there are), why does that justify their support if they on balance do more harm than good? If just 1 union in 1 city of the country was a net positive, would that justify union support? Not trying to argue anymore, but I just cannot understand how we can possible support these unions (namely here in Philadelphia) given all the harm they do to development.

[techchallenger]

Originally Posted by summersm343

That was also before all of these safety regulations were even invented!!! Union or non-union labor, it doesn't matter, they're still going to take safety precautions, and the high cost of construction union labor in Philly is part of the reason a lot of the designs on new buildings are simple and uninspired.

summers - I'm not the one that took us in a time-machine back to 1930! Talk to 'skyscraper' lol.

I think a lot of people (I'm not pointing a finger at you personally) underestimate the skill and knowledge it takes to do these jobs - and I'm not talking about carpenters building displays at the convention center. Does everyone know how long it takes to become a union steamfitter - what their hourly pay is as a first-year apprentice? Honestly, there is a lot of math involved, there are extreme conditions (heat, cold), you have to take craps in porta potties and stand on a ladder all day, etc. How much is a skilled pipefitter worth per hour to everyone on here? How much for an iron worker or a glazier? I'm curious what everyone thinks. Less than a lawyer and more than a bus driver? What?

[PhiLaw]

Originally Posted by techchallenger

summers - I'm not the one that took us in a time-machine back to 1930! Talk to 'skyscraper' lol.

I think a lot of people (I'm not pointing a finger at you personally) underestimate the skill and knowledge it takes to do these jobs - and I'm not talking about carpenters building displays at the convention center. Does everyone know how long it takes to become a union steamfitter - what their hourly pay is as a first-year apprentice? Honestly, there is a lot of math involved, there are extreme conditions (heat, cold), you have to take craps in porta potties and stand on a ladder all day, etc. How much is a skilled pipefitter worth per hour to everyone on here? How much for an iron worker or a glazier? I'm curious what everyone thinks. Less than a lawyer and more than a bus driver? What?

The answer is simple: they are worth what the market for tradesmen will pay them. If an employer perceives their worth at $20 an hour, they will bargain wil them on that basis. If the tradesman agrees, he will be employed. If he disagrees, he will try and seek $20 an hour somewhere else. If he cannot, then he has to lower his wage offer until he finds his answer. Of course this is a silly exercise, because it is easy to ascertain what the market rate is for various jobs by looking at other employees. But the theory is correct.

[Late1]

Originally Posted by sayitaintso

Went from 47 to 49 floors so only an additional 20-30 ft or so.

The new structure should be 208.406 meters or 683.7 feet

Now if someone could fix the diagram which has it drawn to 170 meters....

I wish I knew how to draw the diagrams. On that note, do you know whether the final design's roofline is symmetrical (lowering again to the east) or does the roofline peak to the east? I'm hoping for the latter, as I think the asymmetrical roof works better on an asymmetrical building (and works better with the styling cues of the other Cira buildings), but the official renderings have differed:

roofline peaks at center:


vs. roofline rises to east (and there's a nice, Cira 1-esque crimp on south façade):

[Teakwood]

Originally Posted by techchallenger

How much is a skilled pipefitter worth per hour to everyone on here? How much for an iron worker or a glazier? I'm curious what everyone thinks. Less than a lawyer and more than a bus driver? What?

They are worth whatever the person whom is paying for the work is willing to pay. In general terms, if they skimp on pay, they can expect an inferior product. Quality craftsmen may not be in supply at that price level. As they amount willing to be paid increases, the quality of the craftsmen, and the quality of work increase. Unions artificially increase the cost without necessarily an increase in quality.

As far as how unions affect less skilled workers, would you rather have someone paid minimum wage to hold the tools of a craftsman, or have them be unemployed because they lack the skills to be a part of the union, and have them collect unemployment instead?

[Cro Burnham]

Originally Posted by PhiLaw

If there are some circumstances in which unions do good (and I agree that there are), why does that justify their support if they on balance do more harm than good? If just 1 union in 1 city of the country was a net positive, would that justify union support? Not trying to argue anymore, but I just cannot understand how we can possible support these unions (namely here in Philadelphia) given all the harm they do to development.

Most of this makes perfect sense to me. I've already said many times that I think most of the local building trades and public worker unions are shortsighted and pigheaded.

[sayitaintso]

Originally Posted by techchallenger

You are aware that laborers died during the construction of the Empire State Building, correct?

A teamster died on the docks 2 days ago. Haven't heard of any non union guys dying in a while. Unions practices demonstrably unsafe and the result of this man's death. Clear evidence that only non union workers should be used on the docks gong forward.

[techchallenger]

Originally Posted by sayitaintso

Are you trying to equate union to safe and non union to unsafe? What a red herring. You're not very educated are you. I can tell because this accusation is nothing more than rote memorization of the party line without any ability to defend the argument. Do renovations and new buildings have regulations,codes & legal standards that have to be met? As long as these are followed what does it matter who constructs the building? Laws have been implemented to protect consumer safety we don't need unions for that. Ever heard of the Dept of Labor? Hint it's a cabinet position.

The shallow argument that non union are some slovenly 3rd world less skilled tradesmen is laughable. The fact that union losers continue to trot out this excuse goes to show how out of touch they become with the general population. No one believes that, not even the unions. I know gobs of non union guys who are far MORE skilled and competent than union.

You lose. Accusations have to be backed up with real tangible evidence, statistics etc. Just because you say so doesn't make it so. Unions don't realize how bad they look when they make nonsensical agreements which have no basis in reality and can't be empirically backed up.

You impress me with your ability to judge how educated I am based on one question I posed followed by a statement of personal preference.

[techchallenger]

Originally Posted by sayitaintso

A teamster died on the docks 2 days ago. Haven't heard of any non union guys dying in a while. Unions practices demonstrably unsafe and the result of this man's death. Clear evidence that only non union workers should be used on the docks gong forward.

Have you heard of them killing other people? Maybe 22nd and Market Streets, way back in 2013?

[PhiLaw]

If this debate is going to descend into cherry-picking and silliness I think we should move on. Almost sorry I made a statement about unions (not really)

[sayitaintso]

Originally Posted by techchallenger

Have you heard of them killing other people? Maybe 22nd and Market Streets, way back in 2013?

The reason people died was because the laws, codes and standards were not followed. That's a management issue not a union / non union issue. Union tradesman cut corners with out proper oversight. I've seen it firsthand.

Speaking of laws being broken I can't remember exactly who was recently indicted by the Feds for RICO like activities against the peaceful Quakers. Can you help me on that?

[AbortedWalrus]

Originally Posted by techchallenger

Have you heard of them killing other people? Maybe 22nd and Market Streets, way back in 2013?

Nah, just the attempted murder of Leon Altemose. Maybe a few firebombings here and there, an assault on some workers, that sort of stuff.

[summersm343]

Let's get back to the topic of this thread: development in Philadelphia. Take the debate on union vs. non-union labor elsewhere. Everyone has their own opinion and there are positives and minuses to both sides. Let's not steer this thread any further off topic.

Thank you for your consideration gentlemen.

[techchallenger]

Originally Posted by PhiLaw

If this debate is going to descend into cherry-picking and silliness I think we should move on. Almost sorry I made a statement about unions (not really)

I wholeheartedly agree and let me say PhiLaw, while we may disagree on a great number topics I do appreciate that you (and many others here of course) are able to engage in a civil discourse without taking personal shots at the other community members. There is really no need to be unkind to others when presenting your opinions.

[Philly Fan]

Originally Posted by techchallenger

There is really no need to be unkind to others when presenting your opinions.

Well, with the exception of summersm343--that guy deserves every insult, brickbat, and invective we all can throw at him.

[Late1]

Sayitaintso, did you miss my question below amidst the union debate, or does your insider info not extend to the building's final design?

Originally Posted by Late1

I wish I knew how to draw the diagrams. On that note, do you know whether the final design's roofline is symmetrical (lowering again to the east) or does the roofline peak to the east? I'm hoping for the latter, as I think the asymmetrical roof works better on an asymmetrical building (and works better with the styling cues of the other Cira buildings), but the official renderings have differed:

roofline peaks at center:


vs. roofline rises to east (and there's a nice, Cira 1-esque crimp on south façade):

[MetroSplash]

Originally Posted by techchallenger

You are aware that laborers died during the construction of the Empire State Building, correct?

5 workers died. Not too bad for a building that went up in 16 months.

[Plokoon11]

If they ever add that 3rd Cira Chard tower, that part of the skyline would be like the complex of buildings does in lower manhatten next to the Freedom tower.