Millennium Line - Broadway Extension: Planning & Pre-Construction

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by jlousa

It would be pretty well impossible to justify expropriation for a bus loop. A bus loop is hard to prove it needs to be in that exact location for the public good. Especially if CP where willing to agree to lease the land for a nice return.

If CP were willing to lease the land, it would be a perfect solution for a phased approach where the line would be extended to UBC in the future and then the bus loop would no longer be needed.

I don't see why CP wouldn't be willing to do that, it would at least give them some revenue from the land, which is more than they're getting right now.

[djh]

Originally Posted by jlousa

It would be pretty well impossible to justify expropriation for a bus loop. A bus loop is hard to prove it needs to be in that exact location for the public good. Especially if CP where willing to agree to lease the land for a nice return.

In this hypothetical scenario, IF the plan were to eventually extend the line to UBC, then Translink would not need the land indefinitely. Therefore, could it not just arrange a (say) 99-year lease of the land from CP, build a bus loop on it, and pay rent to CP. I would assume CP would probably prefer to make income on the land for a few decades while they wait for the political and business climates to align before they redevelop that land.

[djh]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

If CP were willing to lease the land, it would be a perfect solution for a phased approach where the line would be extended to UBC in the future and then the bus loop would no longer be needed.

I don't see why CP wouldn't be willing to do that, it would at least give them some revenue from the land, which is more than they're getting right now.

Ha! Great minds...

[officedweller]

Remember that the Pinnacle project already has space for a transit plaza.

The yellow line below is what I had in mind.
No new traffic lights required (maybe 10th & Arbutus for right turns?)
Technically the bus doors would be on the opposite side of the transit mall as the subway entrance.

Alternatively, to get the bus doors on the east side, reverse the direction as shown with the light blue line.
More left turns, but I suppose there already is a set of traffic lights on Broadway at the railway tracks.

[Genauso]

Above ground or below ground is a question for the real estate and legal teams. BC Hydro spent a lot of money to build powerlines in Tsawassen on the right of way it had already bought decades ago. I also remember it being an impediment in Port Coquitlam for the Evergreen line where a few industrial landowners including the mayor were holding out? The actual construction cost and difference in operating cost probably won't determine the best option.

----

The one thing people in Vancouver do not appreciate enough is time.

It's worth going back 50-60 years to a time when much of the current infrastructure was built, or neighbourhoods were established in their modern form. Compare that to the present and then think about what the next 50-60 years holds because that will be the next time the questions of today are asked.

Broadway of 50-60 years ago looked like central Surrey does today. The Burrard and Granville bridges were overbuilt like the Golden Ears and Port Mann are now. (fyi: Newton, Whalley, City Centre, Guildford, Fleetwood / Greater Surrey minus White Rock and Cloverdale = 2014 est. of ~350k, Vancouver 1951 was ~350k)

It can hard to know where to be patient and when to proceed, especially today when you can visit an area for the first time in ten years and it feels like a completely different place after a local development boom. We're all living in different cities mentally.

So here's some help stepping back and taking on a perspective different than the daily experience stored in your memory.

1935ish: Burrard Street bridge a few years after opening
• Video Link
1938: Lion's Gate Bridge construction
• Video Link
1950-1953: Granville Street bridge construction
• Video Link
1954: Drive across newly opened Granville Street bridge
• Video Link


1940: Broadway and Arbutus there had a dairy that delivered milk by horse drawn cart. Also by truck after wartime, but still a dairy. There used to be a huge golf course just south of there where Jimi Hendrix's dad worked.
• Video Link

There's also money and politics, which I realize is important, but I have no contribution to provide there.

[queetz@home]

Originally Posted by Genauso

There's also money and politics, which I realize is important, but I have no contribution to provide there.

Yeah...but ultimately, money and politics will be the ultimate deciding factors on the fate of this project. We can all argue our points of view here until the cows come home, bombard everyone with videos, statistics, studies, "expert opinion", quoting other people's posts, and so on and still not influence the outcome. At the end of the day, the fate of this project will be decided solely by the politicians and their bean counters....

[Genauso]

UBC students moving from Fairview Grounds campus to its present location Point Grey / endowment lands location. Today it's the second fastest growing municipality in Metro Vancouver save for Port Moody after the Evergreen line announcement iirc, and it's the only one where more population works/studies there than commutes outward.

1922: • Video Link

[amor de cosmos]

1999 Broadway Corridor transit study found LRT most expensive, predicted bus service would be at capacity . . . now
by Geoff

As the Translink Mayors Council works to create a regional transportation investment plan to put before voters, the findings of a 1999 study on Broadway Corridor transit options seem eerily prescient.

As those long-ago planners predicted, bus rapid transit on the corridor is bursting at the seams, well ahead of their 2021 estimate, and light rail options won’t do the job. That left a Skytrain tunnel option at least to Arbutus (combined with rapid bus to UBC) as the best option, because it’s faster, less disruptive and cheaper overall than LRT.

The $200,000 joint study by Translink, Vancouver and the province predicted that rapid bus service from Commercial to UBC would have “its capacity tested in 15 to 20 years.”

*snip*

As the 1999 report concluded,

“LRT from Commercial to UBC (Alternative 2) has the highest capital cost and annual operating cost. It is also by far the most expensive way of attracting new riders to transit. Rapid Bus (Alternative 1) has the lowest capital cost and is the cheapest way to attract new transit riders.

“SkyTrain to Arbutus (plus Rapid Bus to UBC (Alternative 6) has an intermediate capital cost and an operating cost comparable to Rapid Bus. It has the highest number of new riders and is between Rapid Bus and LRT in terms of cost per new rider. SkyTrain alone is the most expensive technology on a per km basis; however, when combined with Rapid Bus to UBC, the combination costs less than LRT.

“Overall, the study finds that while LRT is high in ridership, if it is designed for competitive operating speed it introduces the greatest impacts by displacing traffic, parking,access and pedestrians. LRT also has the greatest construction impact.

“Rapid Bus may be viewed as an effective interim solution; however, over time it could evolve to a more ‘separated’ operation and resemble LRT in terms of its impact on traffic, parking and other uses of the corridor. Further, its capacity will be tested in 15-20 years.”

http://www.geoffmeggs.ca/2014/04/18/1999...ed-bus-service-would-be-at-capacity-now/

[trofirhen]

The subscript I interpret from reading all this is "LET'S GET AT IT, ASAP!!"

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by amor de cosmos

http://www.geoffmeggs.ca/2014/04/18/1999...ed-bus-service-would-be-at-capacity-now/

So Meggs has finally discovered what we've known about the UBC 99 B-Line since before The Olympics Distraction, and which was predicted over 15 years ago.

What is he doing about it, other than re-hashing old reports predicting problems around 2015 and old news stories.

Full Bore to UBC !

[Millennium2002]

The majority of Vancouverites and its elected representatives want a subway to Arbutus/UBC... that's good.

Now the problem is just getting the region together to support the project - and, more importantly, getting the required share of funding from a rather reluctant and aggressively political provincial government.

[Alpine]

Broadway subway won’t bring big towers, Vancouver mayor says
MAYOR GREGOR ROBERTSON wants to see Vancouverites rally in support of senior-government funding for a subway along the Broadway corridor.

“It is critical for Vancouver,” Robertson said in a speech to the Urban Land Institute today (May 6).

“Just as people did years ago raise their voices in opposition to an onslaught of freeways right through into the downtown, I think we need to do a similar step of raising our voices to get rapid transit.”

This week, Vision Vancouver released its first video of the election campaign, citing the party’s advocacy for the Broadway subway line.

“It’s something that we need to fight for, and that’s part of why I want to run for another term as mayor,” Robertson told reporters.

During his speech, the mayor referred to a subway along the busy corridor as “the single best thing that we could do for our environment and we can do to livability and [the] economy in Vancouver right now”.

http://www.straight.com/news/639376/broadway-subway-wont-bring-big-towers-vancouver-mayor-says

Face, meet palm.

Originally Posted by allan_kuan

Now the problem is just getting the region together to support the project - and, more importantly, getting the required share of funding from a rather reluctant and aggressively political provincial government.

Sorry, Vancovuer didn't vote for Christy. Kelowna subway line, here we go!

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by Alpine

http://www.straight.com/news/639376/broadway-subway-wont-bring-big-towers-vancouver-mayor-says

Face, meet palm.

Sorry, I don't understand why you think this is a facepalm? Not being sarcastic or anything... I understand the city doesn't have the money to pay for a subway line, but they can certainly advocate for it, zone for it, and so on.

[GMasterAres]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Sorry, I don't understand why you think this is a facepalm? Not being sarcastic or anything... I understand the city doesn't have the money to pay for a subway line, but they can certainly advocate for it, zone for it, and so on.

This is why:

1. 2011, during election, Mayor Gregor says "Broadway subway won’t bring big towers"
2. 2011 election, everyone re-elects Gregor because "he has changed.. I truely believe it."
3. 2012, Mayor Gregor now elected for 4 (not 3) years says "We'd like to announce a new $1 billion multi-big tower development on Broadway"
4. 2012, everyone that re-elected Gregor kicking themselves

That I think is why the above caller did a "face palm" because that's what Mayor Gregor did last election according to many people.

Disclaimer, I don't know if that is actually true or would truthfully happen this go around, but I was just explaining the face palm. For my own personal opinion I actually like Mayor Gregor because all the stuff he has pulled in the last nearly decade have all been a boon for the cities outside Vancouver. So if he is in power another 4 years I have no doubt he will do silly things that make Vancouver even less relevant regionally giving more power, growth, and expansion to cities like Burnaby, Coquitlam, Richmond, and Surrey.

[quobobo]

Depressing. The Broadway subway should bring towers - providing transit-adjacent housing for many is more important than catering to multimillionaire homeowners on the West Side.

[GMasterAres]

Originally Posted by quobobo

Depressing. The Broadway subway should bring towers - providing transit-adjacent housing for many is more important than catering to multimillionaire homeowners on the West Side.

Oh I think it will. If anyone reads beyond the first paragraph with the headlines, he goes on to say the Broadway stretch has 300,000 (a bit of a stretch but let's give him this one) people and will grow by 150,000 in the next 20 years. That means it will add all of Coquitlam + some to just that stretch between Commercial and UBC.

You are NOT going to get that kind of growth without some big towers. Again thus the face palm.

The issue with many people in Vancouver is this notion that they are living in a small city. They can have their land with a nice white picket fence yet be 5 feet away from all the amenities and benefits of living in downtown New York City. I'm exaggerating a bit but it's been that way for decades.

1. People around Science World complaining about the noise of Indy Cars racing around their city for 3 days out of an entire year when they chose to live in a major city core decades ago.
2. People today in West Vancouver not wanting new big high-rises when they live in one of the most dense population centers in all of North America.
3. People on Waterfront property complaining about how expensive it is to live next to $1 million Yachts."

It would be like people in Manhattan complaining about a 30 storey tower being built or people in Dubai complaining about a new freeway. The only thing anyone on the outside can do is scratch their head and say "Really? Where have YOU been...?"

So if you take away the stupidity, the truth is Mayor Gregor is just telling a little white fib because he knows how all the <quote>"F**king NPA hacks"</quote> are listening closely during this election and he needs to tell them what they want to hear until after the election and they can zone 10 new towers for that stretch.

[GlassCity]

I really really don't want to sound like a nimby, but I kinda just like Broadway the way it is. I wouldn't be opposed to a couple of towers, but I feel like making the entire street just an extension of downtown would take away its vibe.

[Jebby]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

I really really don't want to sound like a nimby, but I kinda just like Broadway the way it is. I wouldn't be opposed to a couple of towers, but I feel like making the entire street just an extension of downtown would take away its vibe.

Broadway already has dozens of towers.

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by Jebby

Broadway already has dozens of towers.

I know, but when I think tower I think like 100m+. More towers similar in scale to the ones already there would be fine by me.

[Genauso]

Incremental growth will happen along Broadway, just like it is happening now and always has happened.

There is still a major bank of properties building up (False Creek, around Oakridge, along all the N-S arterial roads, Fraserlands) so there isn't an urgent demand from developers, and I expect the sequence of Election > Subway > Rezoning > Building. Promising no towers would have to be a political tactic to defuse opposition, a coded message to suggest there isn't a secret plan to erect 10 new Metrotowns to those who are worried, or a pragmatic reflection that neither a subway or major rezonings are imminent and it's no use in worrying about everything that could follow.

I think he's right about a subway to UBC making the most sense of any line, proposed or existing. Google Streetview 10th Ave at Blanca/Sasamat/Discovery, it's not at all the suggested spread out detached dwellings that would be a ridership dead zone past Arbutus. The Federal government is really close to selling the Jericho army lands just north of there, compare that land area to Surrey City Centre. It's just as big and with mountain views, water views, better schools, lower crime, streets that are alive with pedestrians and occasional festivals, next to huge park fronting a sandy beach...

I have other complaints about city council, but making a Broadway subway the number one priority will win re-election. It's been a bottleneck for a while and everybody wins with a sure thing