Downtown Canada

[esquire]

Originally Posted by ue

Winnipeg's downtown also suffered a similar blow. I don't think Vancouver's downtown was doing so hot either until Expo 86, though someone can correct that if I'm misinformed.

Winnipeg's downtown didn't get hit as hard as Edmonton... we had our equivalent to Kingsway (Polo Park) being semi-downtown, but we never had a mammoth WEM or the prospect of Portage Avenue being dug up. We also had more employment (as a percentage of the whole) concentrated downtown. Yet while downtown Edmonton really rebounded during the 2000s, downtown Winnipeg stayed in the doldrums for much longer... one could argue that it still hasn't rebounded. Edmonton's downtown resurgence is really quite enviable.

MolsonEx makes a good point too regarding population growth...obviously an inflow helps, but it could have just as easily happened that all Edmonton's growth could have been concentrated in the suburbs. The fact that they were able to draw people and development to downtown and surrounding areas is really to their credit.

By contrast, Winnipeg's population has been growing ever since a couple of minor dips in the mid-late 90s, but very very little of that has taken place downtown. I can count on one hand the number of new residential buildings over 5 storeys that have been built in the past decade in downtown Winnipeg, although fortunately that is changing with a few under construction and a few more in the pipeline right now.

[ue]

Yes, but if you compared Downtown Calgary to Downtown Edmonton in 1994, there was clearly one which was more successful at warding off stagnation and decline.

[miketoronto]

Edmonton's downtown still retains a large amount of retail that American cities five times the size don't even still have downtown.

Winnipeg's downtown seems to have hit a huge blow when EATONS closed. Until then, while not great, I think the downtown retail still managed to be some sort of draw with the huge EATONS and BAY stores.

Calgary is going to be an interesting downtown to watch. While growing, there is no doubt that Chinook Centre is taking a lot of action and life from the downtown Calgary retail scene. It will be interesting to see if Calgary can sustain downtown as a big shopping area, considering how Chinook is getting all the big name stores to the city.

[ue]

Edmonton's Downtown Bay Store isn't even in the original historic building on Jasper Ave anymore. In fact, unlike pretty much every major metropolitan market, the downtown store isn't even the flagship, the one in Southgate is ever since the Downtown Bay moved to City Centre in the '90s after Eatons left. I do agree that Downtown Edmonton's retail is healthier than Winnipeg's, and many American cities, but there are cities doing it better that are the same size or smaller than Edmonton. Calgary is the obvious example, but cities like Spokane, Indianapolis, and Ottawa also come to mind.

[Echoes]

Staying on the Prairies, Downtown Saskatoon's retail is quite healthy, and getting ever stronger. The city's largest shopping mall, Midtown Plaza, opened in the early 1970s and sustained the downtown retail scene, rather than it being completely wiped out. It remains the city's premier shopping mall and has many of the exclusive brands not found in the suburban malls. There are even rumours of an expansion in the near future.

Retail in the downtown bleeds out from the mall, down 21st Street, the length of 2nd Avenue, and parts of 1st and 3rd Avenue. Brands like Lululemon and American Apparel have set up their lone Saskatoon locations in downtown storefronts, not in shopping mall or suburban environments, which I think speaks to the health of the downtown retail scene.

Broadway and Riversdale, which are downtown-adjacent commercial districts, are doing very well also.

[ue]

I agree. Considering the modernist vernacular of Downtown Saskatoon, it's quite surprisingly good for vibrancy and variety. It's definitely a very successful downtown for a city of its size and age.

[miketoronto]

Saskatoon did the right thing by having the main mall for the region built downtown.
A downtown mall and street retail can coexist, and in small cities can maintain the downtown as the centre of the region.

If only other small Canadian cities did this, we would not have issues like downtown Brantford.

[miketoronto]

I have to say that Australia really kicks Canada's — when it comes to downtown vibrancy and life in small to mid sized cities.

Cities in the million range like Perth and Adelaide have much more healthy and vibrant CBD's than Ottawa, Calgary, Edmonton, and Winnipeg. This includes shopping, nightlife, and other attractions.

Given how similar the two countries cities are, we should try and learn from them how they have accomplished this.

I would even say that the larger cities like Sydney and Melbourne could probably teach Toronto and Montreal some things as well.

[Echoes]

Originally Posted by miketoronto

Saskatoon did the right thing by having the main mall for the region built downtown.
A downtown mall and street retail can coexist, and in small cities can maintain the downtown as the centre of the region.

If only other small Canadian cities did this, we would not have issues like downtown Brantford.

Saskatoon also ensured that the city's main cinema multiplex was built downtown about 10 years ago. Despite the outcry over "lack of parking", it is apparently one of the most profitable locations of the Cineplex Galaxy brand. It's now being expanded and upgraded to a Scotiabank Theatre, a brand currently only found in Vancouver, Calgary, Edmonton, Toronto and Montreal.

Miraculously, the city also manages to support 2 historic art-house movie theatres in the city centre; the Broadway Theatre (Broadway), and the Roxy Theatre (Riversdale).

[miketoronto]

That is good to hear. Smaller cities do not need out of downtown suburban locations of major retail or entertainment. The downtown has more than enough room to accommodate the uses of a small to medium size city.

[someone123]

I couldn't help but be reminded of the earlier "chain stores in Halifax" discussion when I saw this set of photos. These were taken at a press event in the new library and the stores visible in these buildings are major chains you find in malls all over the place: American Apparel, Starbucks, the Nestle Toll House thing, Sleep Country, Lululemon, David's Tea, Roots, Le Chateau, the banks, Charm Diamond Centres, a Bell store and probably a bunch I am not aware of. Farther along there's a Shoppers, Pet Valu, McDonald's, and whatever else. There's also an 8-screen cineplex and an urban format grocery store. If you look on street view you'll see decent crowds too.

Seems like a stretch to consider this area a poster child for downtown decline. I bet a lot of people in Halifax will soon be complaining that there are too many chain stores downtown, if they're not already.


Source

[casper]

Originally Posted by Echoes

Saskatoon also ensured that the city's main cinema multiplex was built downtown about 10 years ago. Despite the outcry over "lack of parking", it is apparently one of the most profitable locations of the Cineplex Galaxy brand. It's now being expanded and upgraded to a Scotiabank Theatre, a brand currently only found in Vancouver, Calgary, Edmonton, Toronto and Montreal.

Miraculously, the city also manages to support 2 historic art-house movie theatres in the city centre; the Broadway Theatre (Broadway), and the Roxy Theatre (Riversdale).

I think a retail perspective Saskatoon has done well. With Potash Corp, Campotex and a few others based downtown it is also done well with having office space downtown.

It has also had development outside of the core. The Innovation Place R&D park next to the university is a case in point. The nuclear industry (Cameco and Ariva) chose to have their head office buildings outside of the downtown core.

What I find stands out for Saskatoon is how many older historical buildings have managed to be repurposed. It adds to the downtown core. The push to have residential downtown, in City Park and Riversdale is also a positive.

[kevinbottawa]

The idea of downtowns shifting to other parts of a city over time is interesting. In Ottawa there are a few areas just outside of downtown that may one day have comparable density to downtown (or maybe even higher), including taller buildings because of the height limits near Parliament Hill. South west of downtown at Dow's Lake we'll have up to 48 stories, south east of downtown at Lees Avenue/Hurdman Station we'll have up to 40 storeys, and west of downtown in Mechanicsville we'll have up to 32 storeys. Meanwhile downtown we don't have anything taller than 28 storeys. I don't think other Canadian cities have this problem. Because of the importance of Parliament, the popularity of the Byward Market, the Rideau Centre expansion, and LRT, I don't think downtown will shift any time soon, but what people consider Downtown Ottawa will probably expand. Then again, the two major attractions coming to the region, Lansdowne Park and waterfront development at Chaudiere Island and the Gatineau waterfront, are just outside of downtown Ottawa so they could — some life out of downtown.

[Wigs]

Originally Posted by trueviking

I definitely don't consider the Beltline part of downtown Calgary...that would be like calling Osborne Village part of Winnipeg's downtown.

The Beltline has a different character...downtown to me is everything on the other side of the tracks.

I'd agree with you if Beltline was separated by a river from downtown like Osborne Village.

Most Calgarians would consider Beltline downtown. The people that don't seem to be city planning staff/official maps, Beltline BRZ, and Commercial Real Estate firms.
But with the ongoing growth in both the CBD and Beltline, the line separating the two is getting blurred. Highrise condos, office, and mixed-use buildings filling in the parking lots on both sides of the CP rail tracks are helping to close the gap. And gigantic 44 storey twin condo towers under construction like Guardian (624 units total) don't hurt either.

[Wigs]

Originally Posted by miketoronto

Edmonton's downtown still retains a large amount of retail that American cities five times the size don't even still have downtown.

Winnipeg's downtown seems to have hit a huge blow when EATONS closed. Until then, while not great, I think the downtown retail still managed to be some sort of draw with the huge EATONS and BAY stores.

Calgary is going to be an interesting downtown to watch. While growing, there is no doubt that Chinook Centre is taking a lot of action and life from the downtown Calgary retail scene. It will be interesting to see if Calgary can sustain downtown as a big shopping area, considering how Chinook is getting all the big name stores to the city.

Calgary's downtown is getting healthier by the year. It helps having an influx of 20,000 new people and 10,000 babies born/year. Also, our skyline is constantly growing with new office, residential and mixed-use highrise buildings which helps add more pedestrians outside of typical 9-5 business hours.

I've been here since 2009 and have noticed more people walking around downtown (i.e. Stephen Ave) and staying around after work in nice patio weather or for any event taking place downtown.
With 'The Core' shopping mall and redone Devonian gardens completed, downtown retail is on solid footing.
for example: luxury retailer Holt Renfrew just added more space to almost 147,000 SF (second largest Holt's in size to only Toronto)

[Chadillaccc]

I agree that it — that Chinook is potentially sucking the life out of Calgary's downtown retail scene... but looking at the positive side of that coin, there are a lot of urban style developments on the books for the area around Chinook. I know most people don't think Metrotown is a good example, but I lived there for over a year and I'll tell you, Metrotown is a lively, and mostly urban example of a major Canadian suburban area that has developed completely post war. If Chinook can turn into that, then I really don't see the harm, except if the keep Macleod as the primary street of the area. What a dump and car-congested mess of a street. It should be the street between Chinook Station and the Home Depot or whatever it is. Multi-nodal cities are my favorite kind, so I say bring it on as long as we can do it right.

[ue]

^ I agree with you, Chinook has great potential as an "Uptown" for Calgary a la Metrotown. Although Metrotown lacks the charm of a pre-war neighbourhood, it is still very dense, walkable, and mixed-use. Another good example would be North York City Centre in Toronto, although it isn't wholly post-war in form.

Plus, Downtown Calgary has been holding its own quite well, I think. It's not the city's number one retail destination, but it does have a great mix of retail, including some city-exclusive stores.

[Chadillaccc]

Yep, like Holt Renfrew, Harry Rosen's, and a couple others. I am really hoping that one of these upcoming developments, specifically RioCan East Village, Eau Claire, or Mount Royal Village West can steal the Scotiabank Theatre location from Chinook, and just revert that one to a regular Cineplex, just with Imax and whatnot. That's the one thing I always notice between living here and living in Vancouver; to see a great movie in the best theatre, we don't go downtown... we go to... Chinook. It just isn't the same, not being able to walk out of the theatre and still make a night of things. That's what I want for Calgary's downtown. Hell, and Edmonton's. Does Edmonton have a cinema in the downtown core? We have Cineplex Eau Claire, but it's totally meh...

On a personal note, I realize that's a weird thing to notice on a regular basis, but that's just how it is for me I go to the movies like every few weeks!

[ue]

Yeah, Downtown Edmonton also has some of those exclusives, mostly in the higher end Manulife Place, but it seems Calgary does it a lot better, especially since the Core's renos a few years ago.

We do have a movie theatre downtown, in City Centre Mall, operated by Empire Theatres. They renovated it a few years ago and although it doesn't have the gargantuan scale of a Cineplex Odeon, it's a pretty good theatre. I think if Downtown Calgary or the Beltline could even snag one of those, or one of the new, smaller format Cineplex's, it'd work just as well. A Scotiabank Theatre would be nice, though.

[Chadillaccc]

Yeah. Whenever I think of going to the movies, I think of this:



A gorgeous, awesome, mixed-use, vibrant location with great amenities and bars nearby. I guess you're right though. None of these new developments necessarily need to be the Scotiabank Theatre, they just need to be high quality (IMAX Screen, 3D, etc) and in an attractive area.