Downtown Canada

[Drybrain]

Originally Posted by isaidso

Scotia Square needs to be re-developed so that the downtown can be re-attached to that area marked 'Gottingen' in a more successful way. The Hydrostone and Agricola area is slowly becoming more urban/denser. Bit by big, it's coming together. Give it another 30 years and Halifax will be one of the best kept secrets in the country.

It already is one of the best-kept secrets, I think--unless they've visited or gone to school here, I find a lot of people have some sense that it's basically a super-sleepy big town with an economy dependent totally in tourism or something.

The fact that it's a real, well-rounded (albeit quite small) metropolis seems to surprise people. But yeah, the inner-city scars in the urban fabric from the 1960s are very acute. Not unique in the North American urban context, but unfortunate regardless.

[esquire]

Given how old Halifax is and how influential it has historically been as the undisputed regional centre of Atlantic Canada, it's surprising that it isn't bigger than it is. To echo the comments of others, it sure feels as though it's bigger than its size would suggest.

[SignalHillHiker]

Originally Posted by esquire

Given how old Halifax is and how influential it has historically been as the undisputed regional centre of Atlantic Canada, it's surprising that it isn't bigger than it is. To echo the comments of others, it sure feels as though it's bigger than its size would suggest.

Can't... not... bite...

Halifax and St. John's were basically the same size until the 1900s. Saint John, New Brunswick, was a viable rival for many years as well.

Boston/Quebec and New York City/Montreal were the historic regional centres of Atlantic Canada, around which everything here revolved and with whom everyone here interacted. Halifax was almost as irrelevant to us as we were to it.

In a contemporary sense, it is clearly a regional centre of Atlantic Canada - but that's limited almost exclusively to governance. It's where Search and Rescue is based, where Defense is based, etc. Otherwise, it's still mostly irrelevant to us.

I can't even think of a non-governmental example of its influence here - culture? No. A few slang terms from Trailer Park Boys, perhaps? But that'd be it. We don't need to go there for shopping or concerts anymore. Lots of great universities, but the rest of Atlantic Canada does well there too - we even have the largest single one in St. John's.

Unless all you mean by regional centre is that it has the most people... but that's a pretty weak case. And, just so it's clear, I'm not arguing Halifax wasn't and St. John's is. I'm just saying there wasn't one. Quebec City and Boston pulled apart what chance Halifax had of being a true regional centre.

Regional centre of the Maritimes, I'd accept.

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by Drybrain

It already is one of the best-kept secrets, I think--unless they've visited or gone to school here, I find a lot of people have some sense that it's basically a super-sleepy big town with an economy dependent totally in tourism or something.

Halifax surprises people who've never been there and punches far above comparably sized cities like Oshawa, Windsor, St. Catharines, or London. Victoria might come close. Halifax was already a substantial city a century ago and benefits tremendously from that.

Originally Posted by Drybrain

The fact that it's a real, well-rounded (albeit quite small) metropolis seems to surprise people. But yeah, the inner-city scars in the urban fabric from the 1960s are very acute. Not unique in the North American urban context, but unfortunate regardless.

Scotia Square is very fixable, but doesn't seem to be on the radar there yet. It will need to be addressed and won't be a cheap fix. Despite the city's many great attributes, Halifax still doesn't have the scale and urban heft necessary to become part of the national conversation in the way that Edmonton or Ottawa does. It will need to keep up its current pace of development, in-fill, and population growth for another 2-3 decades to bump up to that next level.

The downtown population continues to grow, but Halifax will need lots more of that so it can support big city amenities that are currently lacking. Getting an underground LRT system, a downtown department store, and perhaps even a CFL team will go a long way. Halifax is viewed as a sleepy city on the periphery for a reason. It's big by Maritime standards, but hasn't developed many of those big city qualities yet. It's on the cusp of doing so.

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by SignalHillHiker

Boston/Quebec and New York City/Montreal were the historic regional centres of Atlantic Canada, around which everything here revolved and with whom everyone here interacted. Halifax was almost as irrelevant to us as we were to it.

Halifax has always been Atlantic Canada's dominant hub and the city to which Boston (and New England) looked to. Saint John may have been of similar size to Halifax briefly, but Halifax was always viewed as the region's most important city. St. John's wasn't even in Canada till 1949 and has never rivaled Halifax in stature; certainly NOT as a Canadian city. I realize that people in St. John's might not want to accept a junior position to Halifax, but Canadians certainly view it that way.

Halifax didn't grow into a Boston because the entire region went into relative decline after Confederation. Btw, Quebec City, Montreal, Boston, and New York are NOT in Atlantic Canada so can't be considered its regional centre.

[miketoronto]

Might be off topic and I know it is has been discussed briefly before.

But many Canadian downtowns feel small for the cities their serve. This could be because the downtowns in many cities have not really growth in past decades and are not functioning as a true centre anymore. But you would expect some of our downtowns to just be larger.

One thing that catches me as odd about downtown Halifax, is the lack of retail. It is interesting that cities like Saskatoon and Regina kept the downtown as the main retail area. Yet Halifax does not even have any large stores left downtown.

[Drybrain]

Originally Posted by isaidso

The downtown population continues to grow, but Halifax will need lots more of that so it can support big city amenities that are currently lacking. Getting an underground LRT system, a downtown department store, and perhaps even a CFL team will go a long way. Halifax is viewed as a sleepy city on the periphery for a reason. It's big by Maritime standards, but hasn't developed many of those big city qualities yet. It's on the cusp of doing so.

Agree with all of that, but I'd still say it's much more alive on the streets than, say, Edmonton or Winnipeg, which are considerably larger. I haven't been to Edmonton in a few years, but as of 2010, anyway, I remember Jasper being an absolute wasteland--all the energy was always down on Whyte. There really are still an amazing number of parking lots to between Jasper and 106th Avenue, and Edmonton really had almost no develop,ment downtown for a very long time, which was bizarre given that it was almost as prosperous as Calgary. Now that there are finally developments lined up, Jasper may develop into a credible alternative to Whyte Ave.

Anyway, even Calgary is no livelier than Halifax, really, despite it amazing growth and the buzz you feel in that city. (Plus it's three times larger.) In Halifax, on a good night in the summer, when things align just right and there's a good crowd of tourists in town, the city feels VERY alive with a jolt of urban energy--that's when the potential really hits home.

And I'm hopeful. Right now there several large condo high-rises under construction that will probably dump a a thousand or so more residents right into the core within a couple of years. And downtown retail is slowly improving, and I think more people re seeing the core as a place to go for a night out.

Do we need a big department store though? Does any city? The Bay can still be a staple in some Canadian downtowns, but the days of the big department store seem sorta over...there's probably a whole separate discussion about the role of department stores in urban downtowns, but it seems to me like we're in a more specialty-retail era nowadays.

[isaidso]

I haven't been to Edmonton, but have been to Calgary and Winnipeg. You're bang on when you argue that Halifax's core rivals that of Calgary in terms of vibrancy and is better than what exists in Winnipeg. That would be a big shock to most Canadians who'd assume it couldn't possibly rival either of those 2.

Halifax's downtown did hollow out like other Canadian downtowns as suburban shopping malls sprung up. Despite this, downtown Halifax has managed to remain the nexus of the city. You're correct that department stores aren't important like they used to be, but sense that they're experiencing a recovery.

There was the assumption that department stores would fall into complete irrelevance, but they're becoming big city status symbols in a sense. Shoppers are back in a big way at Toronto's downtown Bay store, Holts continues to prosper, while Nordstroms is about to enter the market. Only busy urban centres can support these stores. I do see a future for them and the surviving brands are clawing their way back against the big box stores like Walmart, Best Buy, etc.

[miketoronto]

I don't think it is about department stores. Our medium size downtowns like Halifax need the other big chain shops in addition to unique one of a kind shops.
Places like H&M, etc.
Basically all the stores that are at the mall should have a downtown location.
It is questionable whether smaller cities like Halifax ever really needed suburban malls.
Places like Saskatoon and Regina kept their downtowns as the main retail area by having a downtown mall built into the downtown retail district.

[isaidso]

It hasn't been stated anywhere that it's about department stores. That was just one topic touched upon.

Halifax benefits from a compact downtown, a huge downtown student population, being a port, having tons of bars/restaurants concentrated in the downtown, a significant downtown resident population, and a built form that's extremely pedestrian friendly. Halifax built a downtown mall as well, but it's almost deserted. People prefer high street shopping.

The premise for suburban malls in smaller cities like Halifax is precisely the same reason why suburban malls were built in large cities. People visit MicMac Mall in Halifax for exactly the same reasons why they visit Yorkdale Mall in Toronto. Why travel downtown to shop when there's a climate controlled mall right there in the suburbs where tons of people actually live.

[MTLskyline]

Downtown Montreal

Loose definition:
Northern boundary: Mount Royal
Eastern boundary: Jacques-Cartier Bridge
Western boundary: Greene Ave. (Westmount)
Southern boundary: Saint Lawrence River

Strict definition:
Northern boundary: Sherbrooke
Eastern boundary: Saint-Hubert
Western boundary: Atwater
Southern boundary: Saint-Antoine

[Darkoshvilli]

Originally Posted by MTLskyline

Downtown Montreal

Loose definition:
Northern boundary: Mount Royal
Eastern boundary: Jacques-Cartier Bridge
Western boundary: Greene Ave. (Westmount)
Southern boundary: Saint Lawrence River

Strict definition:
Northern boundary: Sherbrooke
Eastern boundary: Saint-Hubert
Western boundary: Atwater
Southern boundary: Saint-Antoine

The loose definition would make it a pretty huge downtown at 5.1km long and about 2.5km wide.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by miketoronto

One thing that catches me as odd about downtown Halifax, is the lack of retail. It is interesting that cities like Saskatoon and Regina kept the downtown as the main retail area. Yet Halifax does not even have any large stores left downtown.

Have you been to Halifax? There is a small department store on Spring Garden Road and the area has about 200 retail stores. It's not Fifth Avenue, but there is downtown shopping (with like half a dozen indoor malls..), and some unusual features like an urban format grocery store (Pete's). There are a few chains like American Apparel, Starbucks, and whatever else (supposedly Urban Outfitters is opening on Barrington). I have a hard time getting worked up about not having enough American chains or about downtown Halifax not being as mall-like as it could be. It's also weird to complain that people aren't piling into buses so they can head downtown and buy TVs or vacuums. Why is that so desirable?

I should also point out that Halifax didn't grow up around department stores like the Western cities. There was no Hudson's Bay store there ever and the Eaton's was relatively small. Mills has been around since 1919 and it is still there. Vogue menswear is another one that's been on Gottingen since the 60's.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Drybrain

And I'm hopeful. Right now there several large condo high-rises under construction that will probably dump a a thousand or so more residents right into the core within a couple of years. And downtown retail is slowly improving, and I think more people re seeing the core as a place to go for a night out.

10 years ago I would have said that the city was more or less stuck with what it had then, but nowadays there is a lot of investment happening and the quality of new construction has increased dramatically (far beyond what anybody would have expected). Equally importantly, locals are becoming interested in the urban core again and are starting to understand the importance of "city building" type projects. I think the city is on a great trajectory right now, even if it isn't always obvious based on the immediate reality on the ground in some places (a retail street isn't going to be super healthy while the blocks surrounding it are all being torn up for redevelopment; this should be kind of obvious).

[esquire]

Here's a look at the official boundaries of downtown Winnipeg, as outlined in red.

It is generally accepted that downtown Winnipeg's massive geographical size is a hindrance. The fact that it is so large makes it difficult for our relatively small population base to fill it with people and activity... the fact that the northern and western boundaries come up against some of the city's more blighted neighbourhoods doesn't help when it comes to attracting people to the area.



The large area marked "M" is what most people would think of as the downtown CBD. Everything to the north of that is effectively the "old" downtown, and apart from the Exchange District's recent resurgence, has been in a state of relative decline for almost a century. In the long run, it probably would have better had downtown Winnipeg not expanded so far to the south and west... it ended up spreading out far too much.

[miketoronto]

Originally Posted by someone123

Have you been to Halifax? There is a small department store on Spring Garden Road and the area has about 200 retail stores. It's not Fifth Avenue, but there is downtown shopping.

Yes I have, and Halifax is a great little city.
Yes there is Spring Garden Road. But my point was that other small Canadian cities like Regina, Saskatoon, and Victoria have been able to retain the downtown area as the main shopping area for the whole city. It is where the largest mall in the region can be found with all the big name stores, in addition to unique retailers on the street.

For small cities it seems like a great way to offer everything people want, while keeping a vibrant downtown.

It is interesting that on the east coast and in Ontario, the smaller cities did not follow this model, with Halifax, Moncton, St. John, and most small Ontario cities opting to allow out of town suburban malls to be built.

I think the question needs to be raised as to whether small cities need to allow out of town shopping. In a small city, there is no reason the downtown could not have been allowed to adapt and continue to be the heart of the city.

[josh_cat_eyes]

I wouldn't really say that the Halifax Shopping Centre is downtown, but I wouldn't say its in the Subburbs either. To me it's it the city proper, while Bayers Lake, Dartmouth Commons, MicMac Mall are in the Suburbs.
For Atlantic Canada tho, I really quite like downtown Charlottetown! It has shopping, bars, public and private sector employees, schools and people live there. For a city of Charlottetown's size, its quite impressive.

[casper]

How many Canadian cities have had a historical shift of Downtown to the point where there is an "old-Downtown" and "new-Downtown". Many European cities have had this over the years.

in Vancouver, Gastown was the centre when the city was founded. It remains well preserved but is not the core of the city anymore.

I don't know enough about the history of other Canadian cities.

Winnipeg has the Exchange district. Was that the centre of the city, or just the warehouse area?

Would Old Montreal have been the original city centre and then things slowly moved to the cite that exists now?

The evolution of downtown is an interesting concept to explore.

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by josh_cat_eyes

I wouldn't really say that the Halifax Shopping Centre is downtown, but I wouldn't say its in the Subburbs either.

Agree. It's not downtown or suburbia.

Originally Posted by casper

How many Canadian cities have had a historical shift of Downtown to the point where there is an "old-Downtown" and "new-Downtown". Many European cities have had this over the years.

The main downtown drag in Halifax used to be Quinpool Street. Later it shifted a couple km away to Barrington Street. Today it's close by but Spring Garden Road is the 'Main Street' Halifax.

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by someone123

I have a hard time getting worked up about not having enough American chains or about downtown Halifax not being as mall-like as it could be. It's also weird to complain that people aren't piling into buses so they can head downtown and buy TVs or vacuums. Why is that so desirable?

The nationality of a chain isn't what's important, but there's value in having popular stores located in your downtown. If it's a Canadian chain or Spanish chain, so be it. As rents spike it does become harder for independents, but downtown Halifax would benefit tremendously if people could go there and visit a Best Buy, Zara, or Chapters. These stores attract large numbers of people. It's a case of 'lifting all boats'.

The only big retail names in downtown Halifax I recall are Shoppers Drug Mart, Lawtons Drugs, Sobeys, and Superstore. It's testament to the strength of downtown that it remains as vibrant and busy despite a dearth of big chain stores.

Originally Posted by someone123

I should also point out that Halifax didn't grow up around department stores like the Western cities. There was no Hudson's Bay store there ever and the Eaton's was relatively small. Mills has been around since 1919 and it is still there. Vogue menswear is another one that's been on Gottingen since the 60's.

Wasn't there a Woolworth or something like that on Barrington Street/Scotia Square once?