Ottawa Rapid Transit Network developments

[orleans_man]

Originally Posted by Dado

I might even be sympathetic to leaving a station at the current Place d'Orleans station location if it weren't for the lame development going on north of the 174 which completely blows a golden TOD opportunity.

I kind of disagree with this statement. If Minto does go ahead and implement their revised 20 year plan for 850 Champlain, I think by Orleans standards that would be a pretty significant development? I believe 3000 Jobs and 63,000 sq.mt. of Office space would the most significant concentration of both jobs and office space in Orleans (with perhaps the Brigil proposal, which is not built).

I don't see how the station would not be perfectly suited where it is?

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by Aylmer

I calculated that every station costs about 30s in deceleration, acceleration to 70km/h and dwell time). I completely agree that we can't be throwing stops around willy-nilly, but for 30s, we should at least examine whether it would it would be worth it.

Time for some mathgeeking!

The trains we've ordered for Confederation Line have 100km/h as their interstation speed. I couldn't find an acceleration figure for the exact model the city has ordered, but a google search indicates that Alstom Citadis accelerates at 1.2m/s^2.

Assuming 1.2m/s^2, then its ~23.1 seconds to go from 0 to 100 or vice versa.

Assuming a 10-second dwell time, a stop would take a total of 56.2 seconds, from the train starting to slow down to being back at full speed (if anyone is curious, the distance required to transition from 0 to 100 is 309 metres--meaning that if stations are less than 618 metres apart, trains won't be able to hit full speed. That will definitely happen between Parliament and Lyon).

If the train just sped through that area without stopping, it would take 23.1 seconds to just speed through that area. So a stop adds 33.1 seconds total to the trip.

[Aylmer]

Voilà! Though I would cut the dwell time down to 5 seconds for non-major stations. It seems like a surprisingly short amount of time, but that's how long the Montreal Metro waits at most stations.

(Sure beats the Rapibus, which regularly takes several minutes to board everyone from one door in the front)

So 28 seconds per local station, 33 per major stop.

[Kitchissippi]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

Assuming 1.2m/s^2, then its ~23.1 seconds to go from 0 to 100 or vice versa.

You might be right in calculating the acceleration, but deceleration is a different thing. Once you get up to speed, you have inertia on your side. Since braking is a waste of energy as well as produces a lot of material wear and tear, the key is to maximize on coasting and minimize braking. The beauty of automated or semiautomated systems is that the trains can be programmed to the specifics of the track — distance between stations, uphills and downhills, curves, etc — to make them as efficient as possible.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

Time for some mathgeeking!

The trains we've ordered for Confederation Line have 100km/h as their interstation speed. I couldn't find an acceleration figure for the exact model the city has ordered, but a google search indicates that Alstom Citadis accelerates at 1.2m/s^2.

Assuming 1.2m/s^2, then its ~23.1 seconds to go from 0 to 100 or vice versa.

Assuming a 10-second dwell time, a stop would take a total of 56.2 seconds, from the train starting to slow down to being back at full speed (if anyone is curious, the distance required to transition from 0 to 100 is 309 metres--meaning that if stations are less than 618 metres apart, trains won't be able to hit full speed. That will definitely happen between Parliament and Lyon).

If the train just sped through that area without stopping, it would take 23.1 seconds to just speed through that area. So a stop adds 33.1 seconds total to the trip.

Real world it is more like a full minute+. I am basing this on time saved per station skipped by express trains in the New York Subway system. This may be a slightly high estimate as express trains sometimes skip 2 or 3 stations in a row and therefore also may have a higher top speed than a local train. On the other hand stops are busier where express trains stop so for example boarding time is longer at Grand Central than a small upper east side stop.

[eternallyme]

A station is probably also warranted between Montreal and Blair Roads, accessed from Jasmine Crescent. That is already a high-use area (Route 12 has high ridership in that community) and a walk-up to the LRT would likely get good use from Beacon Hill South. Much higher ridership than at Montreal Road (which is fairly lightly used, especially outside the business day).

Given the Greenbelt and golf course with no south-side development potential, any alignment should stay on the north side of the 174 at least to Montreal Road.

[lrt's friend]

Station location in an expressway corridor is difficult because it is such a pedestrian hostile environment. It is a foregone conclusion to place stations at Jeanne d'Arc, 10th Line and Trim but these are or will be pedestrian hostile locations because of present and future interchanges. This is why the addition of non-interchange stations is important. These actually provide better access to LRT from surrounding neighbourhoods than the interchange locations. So, you get Orléans Boulevard, Centrum and a mid point between 10th Line and Trim. The last seems hard to justify at the moment however higher density housing is starting to be built on the north side and a trailer park is ripe for redevelopment on the south side. Let's not forget that TOD can be better integrated with a LRT station in non-interchange locations. A compromise between Place d'Orléans and Centrum just leaves you with poor access in another pedestrian hostile environment. You would need to cross a busy boulevard to reach Centrum and the station would not be conveniently located with respect to the park n ride lot, pedestrian bridge and potential development on Champlain. We have an opportunity here to do things correctly. Let's not compromise the value added by LRT.

[J.OT13]

I totally agree; rapid transit lines and stations in a expressway median is far from ideal. Hopefully we can see a few stations integrated into new developments. I think Place d'Orleans and Trim have the best potential in this regard.

[waterloowarrior]

Just to make sure this thread keeps its focus on the official rapid transit network I moved the gondola discussion here
http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=141887

and the OC transpo service discussion here
http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=196761&page=4

[waterloowarrior]

Chapman Mills Extension (Longfields Drive to Strandherd Drive) and Bus Rapid Transit (Greenbank Road to Cedarview Road) EAS SoW

http://app05.ottawa.ca/sirepub/agdocs.aspx?doctype=agenda&itemid=317141

[S-Man]

With Longfields complete, the extension of Chapman Mills Drive would complete the transportation grid in central Barrhaven.

[Buggys]

http://ottawa.ca/en/city-hall/public-con...it-corridorbayshore-station-prince-wales

Baseline Road Rapid Transit Corridor (Bayshore Station to Prince of Wales Drive):
open house

Monday, June 2, 2014
Ben Franklin Place (The Chamber)
101 Centrepointe Drive, Nepean
Transit Access: approximately 300 metre walk from Baseline Station
6:30 to 9 p.m., presentation: 7:30 p.m.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by Buggys

http://ottawa.ca/en/city-hall/public-con...it-corridorbayshore-station-prince-wales

Baseline Road Rapid Transit Corridor (Bayshore Station to Prince of Wales Drive):
open house

Monday, June 2, 2014
Ben Franklin Place (The Chamber)
101 Centrepointe Drive, Nepean
Transit Access: approximately 300 metre walk from Baseline Station
6:30 to 9 p.m., presentation: 7:30 p.m.

The Baseline busway is the most important transit advance beyond the downtown subway. It will truly deliver better service, and give transit a distinct advantage over car travel particularly during peak periods. It is the missing link between the southeast and southwest transitways and provides a fast and more southerly alternative to the Confederation Line for cross-town travel. It finally reflects that Ottawa has grown much more diversified and understands that fast transit connections should not be entirely restricted to downtown.

[Buggys]

It's interesting that this study is only Bayshore to Prince of Wales, not as far east as Walkley/Heron (as originally planned).

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by Buggys

It's interesting that this study is only Bayshore to Prince of Wales, not as far east as Walkley/Heron (as originally planned).

This does not surprise me. Congestion and transit ridership is now west of the Rideau River along the Baseline corridor. The Confederation Heights to Prince of Wales part has already been resolved now that bus lanes have been added on the Heron Road bridge, so this portion is already done.

There is not the same degree of congestion east of southeast Transitway and there isn't even continuous bus service on that corridor. Furthermore, once the Hunt Club Road interchange opens, the degree of congestion at the Russell/Walkley intersection will decline.

The Baseline section is the higher priority.

[Buggys]

Ah. Makes sense.... Except the bike lanes on the Heron Road bridge are shared with buses and don't reach Prince of Wales.

[Buggys]

...Perhaps the planners also want to keep the option of buses travelling along Baseline and continuing up the SE Transitway to Hurdman, instead of continuing eastwards to Heron/Walkley.

On the West end of the line, I wonder whether the buses will continue west of Bayshore, through Bells Corners, into Kanata, like the 118 does now....

[McC]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

There is not the same degree of congestion east of southeast Transitway and there isn't even continuous bus service on that corridor.

That sounds more like a bug than a feature to me; in any event, I agree with you that this is a needed and worthwhile project.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

The Baseline busway is the most important transit advance beyond the downtown subway. It will truly deliver better service, and give transit a distinct advantage over car travel particularly during peak periods. It is the missing link between the southeast and southwest transitways and provides a fast and more southerly alternative to the Confederation Line for cross-town travel. It finally reflects that Ottawa has grown much more diversified and understands that fast transit connections should not be entirely restricted to downtown.

Why does the city insist on NOT posting the materials for these events until after they've happened?

[1overcosc]

If you look at the 2013 TMP at http://documents.ottawa.ca/sites/documents.ottawa.ca/files/documents/tmp_map_5_en.pdf, you'll see that the Baseline/Heron/Walkley Transitway has been shortened and the entire section east of the SE Transitway has been removed. All that's coming to that projected corridor is transit priority measures between Elmvale and St. Laurent. A bit of a shame as that route would have been extremely useful for service in the southeast, but not really necessary as congestion there is light meaning conventional bus service shouldn't have much of an issue. And as lrt's friend mentioned, between Prince of Wales and Heron station the BRT corridor is essentially already in place, although if they want to keep using that they've essentially locked themselves into using shoulder BRT--which is a shame, I think median BRT (like the one planned on March Road) would have been better.

I too wonder what the service plans are west of Baseline. The plan clearly calls for buses to go to Bayshore, which makes sense due to the LRT split, but that begs the question of what happens to the existing 118 through Bells Corners and Kanata. Its possible the city plans to retain the 118 as a local route and have the new BRT route be a brand new limited-stop route, although I don't really see the city doing that especially as the TMP shows the Baseline Transitway having fairly close station spacing. Possibly they plan on truncating the 118, having it either end at Baseline or rerouting to end at Bayshore, which would provide consistency with other Kanata/BC routes as the 60-69 routes will likely be ending there. The extra transfer created would mean the new Baseline Transitway route would have to have very high frequency (as in 10 minutes or better all day) to avoid turning existing 118 riders off, though.