Salt Lake City: Official Development News Thread - Part 3

[ajiuO]

Originally Posted by Stenar

If they were ever blue or green, it must have been over 30 years ago. They've been either white or their current color since I was a kid.

I think they were green until some time in the late 80's

[ajiuO]

Originally Posted by Future Mayor

Perfectly said Stenar. There is more demolition required on West Temple to make room for even a small amount of convention space, and it is impossible if expo space is what the county requires. The Plaza site is the same situation, if the county wants expo space there is zero potential for that block.

ajiuO while I understand your desire for W or S Temple as far as being the best choice aesthetically, and already close to "nicer" areas of downtown, you have to keep in mind connections. Specifically direct connection and what type of alignment and scope of skybridge they will require, especially if more expo space is required.

W Temple doesn't work at all, and while the block north of the Radisson would work for an expo connection, I'd rather not have a giant skybridge over S. Temple, and considering that that block is slightly higher, elevation wise, that would most likely mean a skybridge at about the same elevation as the "rape tunnel" bridge, which is impossible due to Traxx.

Honestly if the county requires more contiguous expo space RWP is the ONLY option available. I would rather confine the Salt Palace to a nice 2 x 2 block than spread it out onto another block.

As for the apartments on 200 S and 300 W, I'm in the camp of keeping those. Yes the property would be more valuable if the CCH is built next door, but keeping them will then make new development occur across 200 S, because there is a demand, and that property is available.

While I don't want to see the senior housing tower be demolished, I would much rather see that be torn down than Arrow Press Square, former X-96 building, and the buildings fronting 100 S.

Saying that there is no room on the Plaza Hotel block is an absolutely insane statement.. As it currently stands.. over half of the block is parking... And on top of that... There is a large fenced off abandoned lot on the SW corner of the block that is being used for absolutely nothing. Then there is the Dees building that isn't being used...

You could keep the plaza and still have room... There is no way I would keep the Plaza... In fact I would put the new tower almost exactly where is is now.

Saying there is no room is just a bogus argument... There is more room on this block then RWP...

And also.. Stop with the skybridge... I would do a tunnel if it were on S Temple or W temple

[Old&New]

Originally Posted by ajiuO

Saying that there is no room on the Plaza Hotel block is an absolutely insane statement.. As it currently stands.. over half of the block is parking... And on top of that... There is a large fenced off abandoned lot on the SW corner of the block that is being used for absolutely nothing. Then there is the Dees building that isn't being used...

You could keep the plaza and still have room... There is no way I would keep the Plaza... In fact I would put the new tower almost exactly where is is now.

Saying there is no room is just a bogus argument... There is more room on this block then RWP...

And also.. Stop with the skybridge... I would do a tunnel if it were on S Temple or W temple

Are you paying for the tunnel? Would be far more expensive than building a sky bridge connection.

[Future Mayor]

Originally Posted by ajiuO

Saying that there is no room on the Plaza Hotel block is an absolutely insane statement.. As it currently stands.. over half of the block is parking... And on top of that... There is a large fenced off abandoned lot on the SW corner of the block that is being used for absolutely nothing. Then there is the Dees building that isn't being used...

You could keep the plaza and still have room... There is no way I would keep the Plaza... In fact I would put the new tower almost exactly where is is now.

Saying there is no room is just a bogus argument... There is more room on this block then RWP...

And also.. Stop with the skybridge... I would do a tunnel if it were on S Temple or W temple

My comments regarding the Plaza block being impossible were in regards to if the county requires more contiguous expo space (large hall space) as part of the CCH.

I'll buy into your Plaza location if you can show me how expo space would connect from the Plaza block to current expo space, without putting S. Temple and trax through a "rape tunnel." As contiguous expo space it needs to be one continuous room without changing levels.

Again I was saying impossible in regards to contiguous expo space.


If a simply connection is all that is required by the county that is a bit more doable, although with some major revamping of the north entrance to the Salt Palace with either a skybridge or a tunnel.

[Stuxnet]

Saw this come through on Time's NewsFeed and thought it was interesting how many people are estimated to visit Temple Square.

[ajiuO]

OK! here are 4 different Option. First of all don't take them to literally as to the exact foot print of structures.. They are just Generalizations. Second. I added some stuff on here that is future development and wishful thinking... The main focus is the CCH.

There are 3 possible Connection Points on South Temple. One directly to the West of 200 West, One Directly to the East of 200 West, and one between Symphony Hall and the Salt Palace.


Option 1:
- This Option would see the demolition of the Plaza Hotel, The Steam Factory, and Dees.
- The most likely connection point would be between The Salt Palace and Symphony Hall. I would prefer a tunnel but a sky bridge is a possibility
- The CCH would Include a restaurant and small retail along south temple.
- This Option Would offer a huge amount of convention space and some green space in the middle of the block that could also be used for out door convention purposes.
- Directly in Front of Trax
- Less then 1 block to CCC and Temple Square.

This is my Favorite option.



Option 2:
- I'm Pretty sure that relocating the steam factory should not be a huge issue.. but in case it is... This option is basically like option one but with less space and the factory left in place.



Option 3:
- This is an option for people who are afraid of ripping down hidious old buildings... It leaves the Plaza in place.. I am against this option...



Option 4:
- This option puts the CCH where the Radison currently stands.
- There would be multi level convention space
- A restaurant and Small retail along South Temple and 300 West
- Direct Connection to the Salt Palace.
- Less then 1 block to Trax
- Less then 2 blocks from CCC @ Temple Square

The is my second favorite option.




and no.. I'm not purposing putting row houses across 200 west. I would eventually like to see Maverick rebuild a much needed bigger location and have 2-3 town homes go where maverick is.. facing 200 West... the plot of land is just to small for a viewable label.

[ToysNoiz]

Originally Posted by Stuxnet

Saw this come through on Time's NewsFeed and thought it was interesting how many people are estimated to visit Temple Square.

Interesting, more people visit Temple Square than the Grand Canyon. Utah's tourism rates rank high compared to other states. Which honestly doesn't suprise me. Very cool map, thanks for sharing.

And Holy Hell, a lot of people vist Minnesota!!

[ajiuO]

All the more reason to put the CCH where the plaza is... A lot of people who come to see The church compound... Would love to stay in that location if there were a decent hotel there.... Just imagine looking down on Temple Square from the 40th floor


That is why I'm totally convinced that the church would either sell or lease the land to a developer... Possibly even advocate for it

[Old&New]

Could also be a reason to set it further away, but within walking distance, to benefit all the businesses in between

[Old&New]

Originally Posted by ajiuO

This is my Favorite option.



Option 2:
- I'm Pretty sure that relocating the steam factory should not be a huge issue.. but in case it is... This option is basically like option one but with less space and the factory left in place.



Option 3:
- This is an option for people who are afraid of ripping down hidious old buildings... It leaves the Plaza in place.. I am against this option...



Option 4:
- This option puts the CCH where the Radison currently stands.
- There would be multi level convention space
- A restaurant and Small retail along South Temple and 300 West
- Direct Connection to the Salt Palace.
- Less then 1 block to Trax
- Less then 2 blocks from CCC @ Temple Square

The is my second favorite option.




and no.. I'm not purposing putting row houses across 200 west. I would eventually like to see Maverick rebuild a much needed bigger location and have 2-3 town homes go where maverick is.. facing 200 West... the plot of land is just to small for a viewable label.

Why don't you want the existing maverick on your block?

[ajiuO]

Another point on south temple... People are going to be more likely to walk out and walk towards ESA and the UP depot then they would to walk west on 200 south towards loft apartments and a very sketchy looking transient camp....

It looks like there's something interesting down at the end of South Temple.... It looks like a place that you really just don't want to go down 200 south....

So I think Gateway would probably benefit more from the South Temple location then they would from 200 south.... If you want to play the anchor card..

Not to mention the fact that you can walk right outside of the hotel and take a free trax ride to Gateway, the Galivan center, the library

[ajiuO]

Originally Posted by Old&New

Why don't you want the existing maverick on your block?

Actually I love where that Maverick is... I remember going there back when it was a holiday oil.. Then a circle k

It is extraordinarily undersized for the amount of business that they do there now.... There are a lot more residents in the area then there were in the 90s... And to compound that problem there used to be another gas station kitty corner that was demolish some years ago....Hanson sold gas at one time as well... I also think there was a gas station either on the parking lot block or where the triad is.

There are always a lot of cars trying to get in there.. Parking is very difficult.. And the convenient store is really small... It's always crowded and hard to move around.

There's obviously a huge demand for a gas station in that general area... And no space to make that one much bigger.... So I say why not Move it a block West get rid of one of our many hooker lodges... And yes I have personally seen prostituting around there

I would not be opposed to a nongas 7-Eleven or something similar being on the corner.... I never get gas there because it's a pain... I usually just go to the new Maverick on fifth south now... I wouldn't even buy gas at Maverick 10 years ago... But they really stepped up their game

[Future Mayor]

I like many of the ideas that you presented regarding the Plaza block, they are very ambitious when including the other items, and obviously some are better than others. However none of them addressed the issue that I referred to when I said the Plaza block was impossible, that of contiguous large hall expo space.

That is why I fully support the RWP location because it can easily accommodate the addition of expo space. From what I've heard OR really wants more large hall expo space and they wanted it to be contiguous aka continuous with the existing expo space. Many conventions want all of their vendors to be in one large continuous hall (expo space), because when exhibitors/vendors are separated often times many attendees don't see those exhibitors that are in the other building. That is why OR is getting tired of the tents in the S. Temple parking lot. Yes the tents accommodate all their vendors, but it's not continuous.

If the County requires more and continuous expo space, either a road is going to have to be closed or another sub-surface tunnel is going to have to be built. So if that is the case it seems that the only option is a road that is already very under utilized and often times closed during large conventions anyway, that being 200 W.

[ajiuO]

On a side note.. The marmalade district really needs a full service grocery store. There used to be a Safeway, and OP Skaggs, and a pretty good-sized Asian market on the corner of third West and fourth north..... Now EZ mart and a couple of small gas stations are all that it remains..

I think the Rose Park Smith's is probably what killed Safeway (IGA at the time)... That's Smiths has really went downhill since then... During the last remodel they even remove the butcher... Now the meat comes from other Smith's locations and it's usually not the freshest.

I don't think it needs to be a huge store... Because of the proximity to Harmon's.... But something around the size of the Trader Joe's or whole foods would be nice.... Hell... I wouldn't even mind having OP Skaggs back... Reed, The guy who owned it got shot and it closed not long after that... The store was pretty run down and grimy by the time it closed.. Roaches.. The whole nine yards... But it was a really nice neighborhood market at one time for a lot of years... Plus it's been completely gutted out since then.... That would be cool if somebody would reopen it as a small grocery store..

OP's even use to deliver..

[AllOutOfBubbleGum]

Originally Posted by ajiuO

So I say why not Move it a block West get rid of one of our many hooker lodges... And yes I have personally seen prostituting around there

Usually there is a guy hanging around the pay phone taking the orders.

Originally Posted by ajiuO

I usually just go to the new Maverick on fifth south now...

I hate that one too because it's infested by homeless now. Even when you tell them no to washing your windows they just hang out right by your car and try talking to you.

[ajiuO]

Originally Posted by Future Mayor

I like many of the ideas that you presented regarding the Plaza block, they are very ambitious when including the other items, and obviously some are better than others. However none of them addressed the issue that I referred to when I said the Plaza block was impossible, that of contiguous large hall expo space.

That is why I fully support the RWP location because it can easily accommodate the addition of expo space. From what I've heard OR really wants more large hall expo space and they wanted it to be contiguous aka continuous with the existing expo space. Many conventions want all of their vendors to be in one large continuous hall (expo space), because when exhibitors/vendors are separated often times many attendees don't see those exhibitors that are in the other building. That is why OR is getting tired of the tents in the S. Temple parking lot. Yes the tents accommodate all their vendors, but it's not continuous.

If the County requires more and continuous expo space, either a road is going to have to be closed or another sub-surface tunnel is going to have to be built. So if that is the case it seems that the only option is a road that is already very under utilized and often times closed during large conventions anyway, that being 200 W.

Are you kidding... Eliminate some or all of the green space.... And you will have a HUGE amount of continuous expos space... More than you could get on the RPW block.... At least without ripping stuff down... Which people are also against.

I don't think it necessarily needs to be continuous with the existing space... Where are you reading this? I think that if the developer operator really wants to put a hotel in a different location... As long as it fulfills all the needs.... The need to extend the existing space is not going to be a huge deal


Another option that I did not display... Which might actually be my number one option... Is to extend the salt Palace onto RWP block... BUT PUT THE HOTEL TOWER WHERE THE PLAZA IS.. Along With some smaller convention space.

I see absolutely no reason why The hotel tower and salt Palace extension need to be the same structure... Or even in the same place.... RWP is a fantastic place to a salt palace extension... But the Plaza Hotel is a fantastic place for a CCH tower

[ajiuO]

Originally Posted by AllOutOfBubbleGum

Usually there is a guy hanging around the pay phone taking the orders.




I hate that one too because it's infested by homeless now. Even when you tell them no to washing your windows they just hang out right by your car and try talking to you.

I agree on the homeless people.. But I usually stay with the card and don't even need to go in.... It's just a lot easier than the one on second west.... I constantly use the convenient store on second west though.... It kind of sucks but I usually go late at night when there is many people in there

[AllOutOfBubbleGum]

Originally Posted by Future Mayor

I like many of the ideas that you presented regarding the Plaza block, they are very ambitious when including the other items, and obviously some are better than others. However none of them addressed the issue that I referred to when I said the Plaza block was impossible, that of contiguous large hall expo space.

That is why I fully support the RWP location because it can easily accommodate the addition of expo space. From what I've heard OR really wants more large hall expo space and they wanted it to be contiguous aka continuous with the existing expo space. Many conventions want all of their vendors to be in one large continuous hall (expo space), because when exhibitors/vendors are separated often times many attendees don't see those exhibitors that are in the other building. That is why OR is getting tired of the tents in the S. Temple parking lot. Yes the tents accommodate all their vendors, but it's not continuous.

If the County requires more and continuous expo space, either a road is going to have to be closed or another sub-surface tunnel is going to have to be built. So if that is the case it seems that the only option is a road that is already very under utilized and often times closed during large conventions anyway, that being 200 W.

The Outdoor Retailers are not worried about the convention space right now. They have stated they are more worried about the Hotel situation. So really the State and county just want to kill two birds with one stone, Get a big hotel close/connected to the Salt Palace and now have extra space.

[Future Mayor]

Originally Posted by ajiuO

Are you kidding... Eliminate some or all of the green space.... And you will have a HUGE amount of continuous expos space... More than you could get on the RPW block.... At least without ripping stuff down... Which people are also against.

NO I'M NOT KIDDING, AND NO YOU WOULDN'T HAVE A HUGE AMOUNT OF CONTINUOUS EXPO SPACE, you could have another large area of separate expo space. That was the entire point of my second paragraph in my last post, and what Outdoor Retailers has complained about. If the County wants Continuous Expo Space, that means that the new large hall expo space that would be built as part of the CCH, would be directly connected to the existing large hall expo space, meaning if all the large dividers are opened, all the expo space in the Salt Palace is one big continuous room. Just as the expo space is now, it's one large continuous room from the South end on 200 S to the West end on 300 W.

[ajiuO]

Originally Posted by Future Mayor

NO I'M NOT KIDDING, AND NO YOU WOULDN'T HAVE A HUGE AMOUNT OF CONTINUOUS EXPO SPACE, you could have another large area of separate expo space. That was the entire point of my second paragraph in my last post, and what Outdoor Retailers has complained about. If the County wants Continuous Expo Space, that means that the new large hall expo space that would be built as part of the CCH, would be directly connected to the existing large hall expo space, meaning if all the large dividers are opened, all the expo space in the Salt Palace is one big continuous room. Just as the expo space is now, it's one large continuous room from the South end on 200 S to the West end on 300 W.

I edited my post... I didn't finish.