Hwy 99 Fraser River Tunnel (George Massey Replacement) | Proposed

[libtard]

Originally Posted by Infrequent Poster

[B][B]

Exactly. Nothing has changed (capacity wise) here for 55 years, or over half a century, and I absolutely agree 8 lanes min, 10 lanes for future growth. People who don't agree with this have their heads up their ass. (not wishing to offend anyone, and a reminder this is only my opinion nothing more).

They can dream about their transit fantasies all they want but the fact is we are getting a 10 lane bridge so let them b*tch and moan all they want. Construction starts 2017

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by libtard

They can dream about their transit fantasies all they want but the fact is we are getting a 10 lane bridge so let them b*tch and moan all they want. Construction starts 2017

Anybody who believes that based on a road sign and a press release is naive at best.

[GlassCity]

I used to want it at 10 lanes, but since the SFPR opened it really doesn't seem necessary anymore. 3 general purpose lanes + 1 HOV in each direction would be more than enough for the foreseeable future.

As far as transit goes, I think transit infrastructure is perfectly fine when it comes to the area around the tunnel, and this is coming from a guy generally against highways and all for transit. Building LRT as some people have suggested instead of tunnel expansion is crazy. There is absolutely no demand for it in South Delta, it's just way too sprawly and low-populated. And as far as South Surrey goes, it'll end up being an extension (or god forbid LRT) line to Surrey Central, not Bridgeport.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

As far as transit goes, I think transit infrastructure is perfectly fine when it comes to the area around the tunnel, and this is coming from a guy generally against highways and all for transit.

The idea is to use the money saved by building a more appropriately-scaled tunnel replacement to build transit somewhere else where it's needed. The money's all coming out of the same pockets. Every dollar spent on unnecessary lanes for the tunnel is a dollar that doesn't get spent towards some other, more beneficial result.

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

The idea is to use the money saved by building a more appropriately-scaled tunnel replacement to build transit somewhere else where it's needed. The money's all coming out of the same pockets. Every dollar spent on unnecessary lanes for the tunnel is a dollar that doesn't get spent towards some other, more beneficial result.

Oh sorry, I didn't know that. It was my understanding that people wanted rapid transit paralleling the Massey Tunnel instead.

In that case there's more of a case to be made for it, but I still think it's hard to argue that the tunnel needs to be replaced. Especially with all the development going on in South Delta, traffic will just get too crazy.

That being said, people proposing 5 lanes each way is nuts. It's simply not needed.

[SFUVancouver]

A big part of the advocacy for transit being packaged with the George Massey Tunnel replacement is that currently 26% of the people who use the tunnel do so using transit, yet the buses only account for 1% of the vehicle movements through the tunnel. With tolls and transit as part of the equation, I have no issue with a new crossing being built to replace the tunnel. It's a total shit show as it is right now. I work near No.5 and Steveson Hwy and trucks and cars are routinely backed up to western edge of Ironwood shopping centre trying to get onto the highway and backed up south along No.5 to Horeshoe Way.

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by SFUVancouver

A big part of the advocacy for transit being packaged with the George Massey Tunnel replacement is that currently 26% of the people who use the tunnel do so using transit, yet the buses only account for 1% of the vehicle movements through the tunnel. With tolls and transit as part of the equation, I have no issue with a new crossing being built to replace the tunnel. It's a total shit show as it is right now. I work near No.5 and Steveson Hwy and trucks and cars are routinely backed up to western edge of Ironwood shopping centre trying to get onto the highway and backed up south along No.5 to Horeshoe Way.

I work at 5 and Steveston too. I finish work between 11 and 12, so transit isn't really an option, but I start right at the peak hours of 5 or 6. It often takes me 2 or 3 times as long to get there during peak as it does off peak.

Building the bridge would help transit too. It's a crime that the HOV doesn't continue onto the bridge, and seeing as most people are driving alone, it would help buses out a ton. I bus through the tunnel about as often as I drive, so improvements to both are important to me. However, I really don't see how much more you could improve transit in the corridor as there really isn't the demand for it.

[GMasterAres]

I think 8 lanes would be fine. 10 seems a bit much for a region wanting to decentralize. Transit dedication is a must in the context of an HOV/Bus lane. That does fine today with the crap tunnel we have so no reason it won't be perfectly acceptable on a brand new bridge/tunnel that isn't a choke point.

Transit growth along HWY99 and ajoining won't be growing hugely in the next 20 years anyway. A lot of people in South Surrey are wealthy and wouldn't get caught dead on public transit. The same goes for the majority of people living in Ladner and Tsawassen. Most of the people that work in Tilbury and further East also live South of Fraser not on the other side.

So the new crossing is really to address:

1. Safety: Bridge would allow dangerous goods to transit another route + it would be up to better disaster and Earth Quake standards
2. Industry: More lanes and adjustment of the interchanges before and after would move container goods better and allow deeper more filled up ships to use the Surrey Fraser Docks
3. The Environment: It isn't going to encourage more sprawl because people are already moving to South of Fraser news flash! so it will simply allow less vehicles and trucks to sit idle at the tunnel for a large portion of the day. Vehicles not moving = bad for the environment.
4. Traffic: 1 dedicated HOV + 3 lanes of traffic = better than today's 2 lanes generally, 3/1 lanes in peak.

So to me 8 lanes would be sufficient. 1 HOV, 2 Main Traffic, 1 SFPR <> Steveston Truck use mainly. I think 10 may be a bit overkill but unless the cost is not much, I don't see it really being required in that area.

I'd rather see for example an 8 lane bridge replacing the tunnel + 6 lane Patullo than say a 10 lane bridge replacing the tunnel + 4 lane Patullo.

*shrug*

Dedicated transit like trains or SkyTrain or LRT is just ridiculous though along that stretch. If Surrey can't even get an Expo line extension with 300,000 more people along a much shorter stretch, there is no chance in hell HWY99 is going to get anything other than the continued bus service it already gets which is pretty good imo. Not to mention any train system would have to pass 20km of ALR+ and people bitch on these forums about a Surrey Skytrain extension having to pass through _2_km. 2.

[GMasterAres]

Originally Posted by SFUVancouver

A big part of the advocacy for transit being packaged with the George Massey Tunnel replacement is that currently 26% of the people who use the tunnel do so using transit, yet the buses only account for 1% of the vehicle movements through the tunnel. With tolls and transit as part of the equation, I have no issue with a new crossing being built to replace the tunnel. It's a total shit show as it is right now. I work near No.5 and Steveson Hwy and trucks and cars are routinely backed up to western edge of Ironwood shopping centre trying to get onto the highway and backed up south along No.5 to Horeshoe Way.

Yes but transit would be packaged if they simply put a dedicated HOV/Bus lane system. I don't think they need anything more than that. The HOV lane should also be on the center of the entire highway like HWY1 not the outside which makes it a pain in the behind at interchanges and needlessly complicated. I would be shocked if HOV isn't part of a new bridge. They already said it would not just be a bridge but would include improvements all the way North and South.

[GlassCity]

Well as far as I know there's a fair bit of development going on in South Delta right now, like Marina Gardens, Southlands, Tsawassen Springs, and the mall. That being said, I still think 3 lanes+1 HOV would be able to take care of this.

And yeah, I think the HOV would be a given. There is no way they build a replacement without it.

[moosejaw]

3 Lanes + 1 HOV would suffice for now
But what about 20 years from now?

Its a moot point anyways as BCMOT always scales back the scope from the original idea. Remember we supposed to get full interchanges on SFPR but some analyst came in and said they were not needed now.

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by moosejaw

3 Lanes + 1 HOV would suffice for now
But what about 20 years from now?

Its a moot point anyways as BCMOT always scales back the scope from the original idea. Remember we supposed to get full interchanges on SFPR but some analyst came in and said they were not needed now.

Well the traffic jams are caused by the merging of like 5 lanes into 2, and sometimes 1 when they change over the lanes for peak hours. So limiting the number of times people have to merge into lanes would really be all you need to do, because the congestion basically ends right after the tunnel. So if you build 3+1 HOV I think it would last you for the distant future.

[Zassk]

I'll be the voice of dissent, then. Alex Fraser Bridge has been ramping up its volumes every year since it was built, essentially providing 30 years of relief to the Massey crossing. But the Alex Fraser has just recently reached its effective capacity, so the years of relief are over. We need to build the Massey bridge to account for the fact that Alex Fraser will not fit any more vehicles in future. That's why I see the 9th and 10th lanes on the Massey bridge as being future relief for the Alex Fraser bridge.

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by Zassk

I'll be the voice of dissent, then. Alex Fraser Bridge has been ramping up its volumes every year since it was built, essentially providing 30 years of relief to the Massey crossing. But the Alex Fraser has just recently reached its effective capacity, so the years of relief are over. We need to build the Massey bridge to account for the fact that Alex Fraser will not fit any more vehicles in future. That's why I see the 9th and 10th lanes on the Massey bridge as being future relief for the Alex Fraser bridge.

I see that point of view too. I'm not really completely decided yet. Regardless, it won't be up to us anyway.

[Genauso]

There has been a lot of talk about an LNG goldrush in BC. That may or may not play out as a goldrush.

The certain coming goldrush is the residential development on former agricultural land in Delta and Richmond. Closer to the ocean, better mountain views, better weather, and better proximity to destinations -- available at the stroke of a pen, and one small battle at a time. The only surprising thing is that it hasn't happened yet, but it has started occurring in the last decade.

Then there is Port Metro Vancouver which apparently has the highest container storage prices in North America, and for the Delta container yard project to help it needs better connections.

As voters, we can only wait to hear when the bridge will be built and what price we are to pay for it.

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by Genauso

There has been a lot of talk about an LNG goldrush in BC. That may or may not play out as a goldrush.

The certain coming goldrush is the residential development on former agricultural land in Delta and Richmond. Closer to the ocean, better mountain views, better weather, and better proximity to destinations -- available at the stroke of a pen, and one small battle at a time. The only surprising thing is that it hasn't happened yet, but it has started occurring in the last decade.

Then there is Port Metro Vancouver which apparently has the highest container storage prices in North America, and for the Delta container yard project to help it needs better connections.

As voters, we can only wait to hear when the bridge will be built and what price we are to pay for it.

Is there a land left in Delta and especially Richmond that's not part of the ALR? I have never been able to find a good map of it.

[Oborro]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

Is there a land left in Delta and especially Richmond that's not part of the ALR? I have never been able to find a good map of it.

Richmond

Ladner

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by Oborro

Richmond

Ladner

Thanks so much for this.

Wow. I thought most of it would have been built out by now, but that is a lot of space in Tsawassen. I think a new bridge would stimulate development there like crazy.

[Klazu]

I went to Seattle the previous weekend. Trying to beat the traffic I left Downtown on Friday at 2:30pm, but hit a deadlock traffic before the tunnel. The tail of the traffic was at Hwy91 - 6 kilometers north of the tunnel! I was amazed and spent 30 minutes there, even though it started picking up once they began the counter-flow at 3pm, but my God what a bottleneck! I still can't believe my experience.

[wrenegade]

Ya we really don't have too much to complain about traffic-wise when compared with Seattle. North-South traffic there is an absolute mess.