Is Ottawa the City that Fun Forgot?

[ue]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

You need to learn more about the history of the Ottawa Valley before making such statements. The combined population of Bytown/Wrightsville was probably in the 25,000+ before the area was chosen as capital. The whole myth that Ottawa was some sort of worthless hinterland is probably one of the root sources of the "Ottawa is boring" sentiment, perpetuated through the centuries. Even if your definition of fun is the sleazy kind, Ottawa had drunken riots and whorehouses well before it was the capital.

I hadn't realized it was that large, but I know one of the main reasons it was chosen as a capital was because it was equal distance between Toronto and Quebec City, the larger or more influential ends of the Canadas. Being right on the border between the two also helped. It was a neutral territory, so to speak.

The Voyageurs and the fur trade came through here on their way to and from the West, not the St Lawrence. This was the centre of the timber trade, probably the most lucrative industry in its time. Later, Ottawa had a healthy industrial base independent of being the government centre, we exported streetcars and the first electric stoves.

Hmm...interesting. Thanks.

Edmonton before it became Alberta's Capital was a dinky little depot of 8,000 people. If it weren't crowned as such, it would probably wouldn't have amounted to much either.

Well, it did have a history going back over a century as an important fur trading post, but I agree, it was still a dinky town in 1905.

Although I would say the initial booms of Edmonton were related to it being crowned the capital (and the university going directly across the river in the then-independent Strathcona), it hasn't been the case since the 1930s. The 1907-1914 boom is the only one I can think of that really only had to do with the increased attention it was getting as being the capital of a new province. By the 1930s, Edmonton was already being chosen as a major military centre, and then by 1947, oil was discovered in Leduc County.

So this idea that Edmonton wouldn't have amounted to much if it weren't the capital I don't buy, because it was significantly influenced by other factors both before and after it was crowned capital. One only needs to look 300km to the south, to Calgary, to see that you could still be big here without being the capital. And Calgary is even younger than Edmonton, being founded in 1884!

[sam2020]

Originally Posted by S-Man

Ugh. I had bowed out of this thread until reading the post that elicited Kitchissippi's response.

Yes, funny how Ottawa was founded - and boomed- before becoming a capital, given the distinct lack of festivals when the Scottish and Irish immigrants hopped off the boat to accept their free land, business opportunity and lack of famine.

Downright odd!

The issue is people don't know what Ottawa has to offer and the history of the city.

[sam2020]

Originally Posted by ue

I hadn't realized it was that large, but I know one of the main reasons it was chosen as a capital was because it was equal distance between Toronto and Quebec City, the larger or more influential ends of the Canadas. Being right on the border between the two also helped. It was a neutral territory, so to speak.



Hmm...interesting. Thanks.



Well, it did have a history going back over a century as an important fur trading post, but I agree, it was still a dinky town in 1905.

Although I would say the initial booms of Edmonton were related to it being crowned the capital (and the university going directly across the river in the then-independent Strathcona), it hasn't been the case since the 1930s. The 1907-1914 boom is the only one I can think of that really only had to do with the increased attention it was getting as being the capital of a new province. By the 1930s, Edmonton was already being chosen as a major military centre, and then by 1947, oil was discovered in Leduc County.

So this idea that Edmonton wouldn't have amounted to much if it weren't the capital I don't buy, because it was significantly influenced by other factors both before and after it was crowned capital. One only needs to look 300km to the south, to Calgary, to see that you could still be big here without being the capital. And Calgary is even younger than Edmonton, being founded in 1884!

Its the oil sands thata re a big factor then Edmonton being the capital.

[Kitchissippi]

The massive investment that the British government had already poured on the Rideau Canal — planned after the War of 1812 and completed in 1832 — was likely the reason Ottawa was chosen as the capital. Had the age of canals not ended abruptly and eclipsed by the railway, progress was being made to make the upper Ottawa navigable. If animosity towards the Americans had continued make the St Lawrence risky and an Ottawa-Mattawa-Nipissing-French River Waterway had been completed to lake Huron, Ottawa could indeed have become the central hub for the Dominion and western expansion. Given that the colonial government probably thought in those terms and saw potential through the technology of the day and known transportation routes, Ottawa was a brilliant choice for a capital, not just some random afterthought.

[Razor]

I'm learning a lot from reading these past few pages..I always thought that if Ottawa wasn't named the capital, it would of just been a slightly larger Pembroke..I never realized that it had some size to it already..25'000 inhabitants was substantial in those days.

[sam2020]

Originally Posted by Razor

I'm learning a lot from reading these past few pages..I always thought that if Ottawa wasn't named the capital, it would of just been a slightly larger Pembroke..I never realized that it had some size to it already..25'000 is nothing to sneeze at in those days.

If Ottawa has not been picked i think it still would have been a good size city as with Pembroke many think its a small town very few seem to know how big it is.

[Razor]

Pembroke is 12'000 or so..Hard to gage, but can anyone see Ottawa Kingston sized today had it not been picked?...Imagine Kingston as the capital right on the lake..Would of been something..That's another subject though..

Getting back to the subject,IMO Ottawa is a great little city.
You want something to do, you can always find it..Everytime I'm on a patio in the Market on a nice Saturday day, I realize how lucky we are in this city..It's the simple things. Sure it doesn't have the edge or raw energy like larger centres, but it also doesn't have the big city head aches either (can we say 401 commute?).It's not entertainment starved..I mean most of the major acts do come through town when they tour.

[bikegypsy]

Originally Posted by ue

Being right on the border between the two also helped.

It didn't help... it was the main reason. The Toronto - Quebec city half way point thing was much lower down a list of 5 or 6 reasons... Probably even just a bonus.

[TOexpat]

I should clarify that I am not actualy from TO. Handle was in inside joke. I am born and bred from Ottawa, which in no way changes my views that it is not an overly fun city. Who goes to Ottawa for a fun weekend? Try going out on a Wednesday night and you'll quickly apprecaite that Ottawa is dead at night.

I think that the Lansdowne redevelopment is fantastic and will give Ottawa a shot in the arm and bring people to a central location. I fear that the Market will never really progress unless they do something about the hideous King Edward which divides the downtown and get rid of all the homeless shelters that are littered throughout the Market.

Ottawa in a nice city, but really not fun.

[bartlebooth]

Originally Posted by TOexpat

I should clarify that I am not actualy from TO. Handle was in inside joke. I am born and bred from Ottawa, which in no way changes my views that it is not an overly fun city. Who goes to Ottawa for a fun weekend? Try going out on a Wednesday night and you'll quickly apprecaite that Ottawa is dead at night.

I think that the Lansdowne redevelopment is fantastic and will give Ottawa a shot in the arm and bring people to a central location. I fear that the Market will never really progress unless they do something about the hideous King Edward which divides the downtown and get rid of all the homeless shelters that are littered throughout the Market.

Ottawa in a nice city, but really not fun.

While there are many nights that are still pretty dead and streets quiet, things are getting better. I went to a great live music event on a Monday night last November when it was -20. It was part of the 'I Can't Believe It's Not...' music series - if you haven't heard of it, look it up. Super fun and an amazing night out. All-star casts of Ottawa musicians covering classic albums from start to finish. The night I went they did The Strokes album 'Is This It'. The venue was packed and full of energy. I remember thinking how different it felt for Ottawa. Obviously it is just one example, but these nights and events are happening and with increasing frequency. I'm finding there are more and more nights where multiple events are happening that I really want to go to. Probably laughable to most people from big, culturally diverse cities but it is an improvement for Ottawa and new in my experience of this city.

[Urbanarchit]

Originally Posted by TOexpat

I fear that the Market will never really progress unless they do something about the hideous King Edward which divides the downtown and get rid of all the homeless shelters that are littered throughout the Market.

To be honest, I think the problem with the Byward Market is much bigger than King Edward or homeless shelters. It needs a complete overhaul, but such a grand project won't ever happen. I think parking and car access should be limited significantly and have it more of a pedestrian environment (York would be great as a pedestrian-only strip, with trees and such).

[sam2020]

Originally Posted by defishel

To be honest, I think the problem with the Byward Market is much bigger than King Edward or homeless shelters. It needs a complete overhaul, but such a grand project won't ever happen. I think parking and car access should be limited significantly and have it more of a pedestrian environment (York would be great as a pedestrian-only strip, with trees and such).

You limit car access significantly that would do more harm then good i think there are ways you could have some less cars but you can't cut them all off now what i think could be more or less the end of the amrket is if we get a safe injection site.

[sam2020]

TOexpat

There are parts of Ottawa that are dead at night no question but you can say that about most citys.

[Urbanarchit]

Originally Posted by sam2020

You limit car access significantly that would do more harm then good i think there are ways you could have some less cars but you can't cut them all off now what i think could be more or less the end of the amrket is if we get a safe injection site.

How would it do more harm then good? Because fewer people would go there because they can't drive from the suburbs? The main issue I can see would be getting goods to stores and restaurants or vendor produce.

I'm in my early 20s, and the Market is not much of an interesting place for me (I go rarely and my social life is not negatively impacted). But it's not pleasant to walk through because you're competing with other people who are cramped onto small sidewalks and cars on the road or parking. There are a handful of good restaurants, but most businesses you'll find cater to tourists. The most pleasant places in the Market are Tin House Court, Jeanne d'Arc Court, Clarendon Lane. I think if better urbanism were encouraged the Market would be a better place to go.

I took a picture, one I eventually deleted, of the vendor stalls beside the Byward Market Square building, and I commented to my friend who was with me how it reminded me of the images of developing countries. At 18h-19h stores were closing their garage shutters, produce was packed away and cars were parked along side them. It was a mess and looked so unfortunate that I'm embarrassed that this is the side of Ottawa that most tourists will be faced with. I'll try to take another picture in the summer to show what I mean if anyone is interested.

William Street and the street flanking the other side of the main Byward building should be closed to pedestrians only, but I'd like to see George and York closed. Parking would be located underground outside of this area between Rideau, Dalhousie, Sussex, and Clarence. Only some trucks may be allowed at certain hours of the day for produce vendors and some businesses.

Cars on other streets cars should be de-emphasized and see pedestrians and cyclists more. Public transportation should also be improved.

Where do you suggest a safe injection site be located, then? Same with homeless shelters.

[Dado]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

The massive investment that the British government had already poured on the Rideau Canal — planned after the War of 1812 and completed in 1832 — was likely the reason Ottawa was chosen as the capital. Had the age of canals not ended abruptly and eclipsed by the railway, progress was being made to make the upper Ottawa navigable. If animosity towards the Americans had continued make the St Lawrence risky and an Ottawa-Mattawa-Nipissing-French River Waterway had been completed to lake Huron, Ottawa could indeed have become the central hub for the Dominion and western expansion. Given that the colonial government probably thought in those terms and saw potential through the technology of the day and known transportation routes, Ottawa was a brilliant choice for a capital, not just some random afterthought.

I tend to agree that it was a lot better of a choice than many others give it credit for.

Still, I think we could have done a bit better. Your post actually hints at where I think the capital should have been placed.

I'd have put it at what is now North Bay (which wasn't founded until the 1880s by the CPR), right on the drainage divide between the Mattawa-Ottawa River system to the east and the Nipissing-French River system to the west. A capital located there would have virtually ensured construction of the Ottawa-Mattawa-Nipissing-French River Waterway.

But North Bay is notable for another reason: until the recent railway abandonments in the Ottawa Valley, it was the natural geographical hub of the Canadian railway network: it had lines in all directions; from Montréal via the Ottawa Valley, from Toronto to the south, to Western Canada, and north to Moosonee and James Bay.

I suspect that had the choice for the capital been on Lake Nipissing back in the 1850s instead of Ottawa, we as a country would have begun the process of settling the West in earnest about a generation earlier than we did. Chances are the mineral wealth of Northern Ontario would have been discovered earlier too. Someone might also have had the idea to create a capital territory out of all the Crown Land in the area too, rather than leaving the capital in the bounds of a province.

And with respect to the topic of this thread, one of the things that has held Ottawa back culturally over the decades is the relative proximity of Montréal: it's long been just a little too easy for high-ranking Ottawans to skip off to Montréal for entertainment, shopping, and other leisure-type pursuits, with the consequence of there being less incentive to develop such things here.

Originally Posted by Razor

I'm learning a lot from reading these past few pages..I always thought that if Ottawa wasn't named the capital, it would of just been a slightly larger Pembroke..I never realized that it had some size to it already..25'000 inhabitants was substantial in those days.

So it happens that London, Ontario, had a similar population to Ottawa back then. One could probably extrapolate then that Ottawa's population today would be in the neighbourhood of London's had Ottawa not been named the capital.

By the same token, once named the capital, Ottawa probably took on some of the growth that otherwise would have gone to Kingston, so the two cities might have ended up a lot closer in size (assuming Kingston didn't itself become the capital, that is).

[J.OT13]

North Bay would have been an interesting choice, but a few obvious issues arise. For one, the fact that no one was established in that area in 1857 would have required a new capital from scratch. Although this was done in many other countries (master-planned capital from a blank canvas), tensions between Upper and Lower Canada as well as competition between potential capitals required a faster resolution.

Another big issue is the distance between North Bay and existing major centres. It must have been relatively easy to move materials and labour (for the construction of Parliament) and public service (no doubt a good number of existing public servants moved to Ottawa) from the cities along the St-Lawrence/Lake Ontario to Ottawa. The same could not be said of North Bay before the construction of proper rail service across the country.

[TOexpat]

Manx is one place you can always find someone drinking. Brendan will always be there if you need company.

And yes there are some good nights like this. Zaphods still has some good shows during week, but I was referring more to the general ability to go out on random night and it be ok.

Thanks for pointing this out.

Originally Posted by bartlebooth

While there are many nights that are still pretty dead and streets quiet, things are getting better. I went to a great live music event on a Monday night last November when it was -20. It was part of the 'I Can't Believe It's Not...' music series - if you haven't heard of it, look it up. Super fun and an amazing night out. All-star casts of Ottawa musicians covering classic albums from start to finish. The night I went they did The Strokes album 'Is This It'. The venue was packed and full of energy. I remember thinking how different it felt for Ottawa. Obviously it is just one example, but these nights and events are happening and with increasing frequency. I'm finding there are more and more nights where multiple events are happening that I really want to go to. Probably laughable to most people from big, culturally diverse cities but it is an improvement for Ottawa and new in my experience of this city.

[TOexpat]

Yes absolutely. Why could this never happen though?

Originally Posted by defishel

To be honest, I think the problem with the Byward Market is much bigger than King Edward or homeless shelters. It needs a complete overhaul, but such a grand project won't ever happen. I think parking and car access should be limited significantly and have it more of a pedestrian environment (York would be great as a pedestrian-only strip, with trees and such).

[Urbanarchit]

Originally Posted by TOexpat

Yes absolutely. Why could this never happen though?

(Prepare for a Negative Nancy response)

I think it boils down to: lack of creativity, lack of money, lack of cojones.

Money: I don't know if the money exists for such an ambitious project, but even if we did have the money the city would probably rather spend it on some other project that they deem more important, many of which don't quite favour people. They would want to spend as little as possible, and try to find ways to cut corners so it doesn't anger taxpayers. I think it's important to be willing to spend a bit more money than you're comfortable if it means there's a chance you could get a huge reward for trying. If we're so worried about money, then things we need to happen won't ever happen and actual change will never come about.

Creativity: I also think Ottawa as a city lacks creativity. Sure, some artists stay and do stuff here, but by and large they tend to leave for cities that will appreciate their work. When we look at great architecture or urban design, where are the people suggesting interesting projects? If you look at the things that New York has proposed or Montreal or Tokyo, you have to wonder why isn't Ottawa trying anything like that? New York took an abandoned subway line and turned it into an elevated urban park. Could you imagine Ottawa doing something on par with that in the city? I don't think so, and that's because people aren't focused on being creative. And this infiltrates our approach to building design.

Sure, you might counter with, "Don't compare Ottawa to larger, wealthier cities!" But that's not the right attitude to take - rather I think that attitude is what prevents us from doing anything interesting. It's that people in Ottawa seem to have a very complaisant with what we have that there will never be a risk taken to do something out-of-the-box.

Cojones: Finally, I don't think there's anyone who would be willing to take a chance on such a grand project as this. My impression of the city is that they seem to try to focus more on the suburbs and on cars, and I doubt the city would actually try to make the ByWard Market a pedestrian-only area.

Take for example the flack NYC planners took when they suggested closing off parts of Times Square and other sections of Broadway. People complained and got angry, citing this project as hurting the city. But they went ahead anyway. Ottawa on the other hand would cave under that pressure and try to come up with a non-functioning "compromise" that would accomplish nothing and just further discredit them. Can you imagine a politician or somebody taking a chance? They probably care more about themselves and keeping their job, so they'll do whatever they can do remain in power, even if that means not doing something extraordinary that could reward them grandly.

I think with these three things, not even including what a pain the NCC probably would be, prevents us from ever doing anything worthwhile in this city. The best we can hope for is an LRT that serves the suburbs more than the urban core that won't accomplish what the city claims it will, and to try to build new buildings to get a few more people to live here and there and then pretend that this is urban revitalization/ fixing the problems.

In the end, it largely has to do with people's attitudes in Ottawa and towards our city that will prevent us from actually being the city that fun remembers (I place a lot of emphasis on built form for shaping our behaviour, as I'm sure one can tell).

[phil235]

[QUOTE=defishel;6511725]

I'm in my early 20s, and the Market is not much of an interesting place for me (I go rarely and my social life is not negatively impacted). But it's not pleasant to walk through because you're competing with other people who are cramped onto small sidewalks and cars on the road or parking.

Don't quite get this sentiment. It sounds a lot like the old "the place is so crowded, no one goes anymore". The Market is crowded exactly because it is interesting and pleasant to walk through.

I don't disagree with your idea for more pedestrianization, but it's not like the whole place needs to be drastically changed. The proof is in its popularity. On one hand we are complaining about the lack of energy and buzz in the city, and in the next breath we are saying an area that clearly has energy and buzz is too crowded.

There are a handful of good restaurants, but most businesses you'll find cater to tourists.

No and no. There is pretty much as a big concentration of good restaurants as you will find anywhere, as well as a tonne of great patios, great sports bars etc. Locals make up the vast majority of people visiting.

I took a picture, one I eventually deleted, of the vendor stalls beside the Byward Market Square building, and I commented to my friend who was with me how it reminded me of the images of developing countries.

Vendor stalls remind you of developing countries? They remind me of farmers' markets.

At 18h-19h stores were closing their garage shutters, produce was packed away and cars were parked along side them.

What markets do you know of that stay open later than that? You have to be a bit realistic about the hours people are likely to shop at markets. And in any event, the Market is working on changing that.

It was a mess and looked so unfortunate that I'm embarrassed that this is the side of Ottawa that most tourists will be faced with.

A bit drastic I would say. I've never heard this sentiment expressed, either by locals or visitors that I'm showing around town. On the other hand, I've heard countless positive comments on that area of the city.

Before demanding drastic change, I think we have to take an honest look at the positives we have to work with.