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  #2441  
Old Posted Mar 13, 2014, 4:17 PM
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What is the contractors name?
I was to busy to cross the street to look as I had to get up on the roof of the grain exchange to point some equipment at the aboriginal center for their new 500mbit net conection
     
     
  #2442  
Old Posted Mar 13, 2014, 4:33 PM
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Welcome Place, Winnipeg, by 5468796 Architecture. The 23-unit block offers transitional shelter to freshly-landed refugees from parts of the world afflicted by violence and strife. For a project cost of $152 a square foot, the firm has fashioned a very fresh, pertly modernist building that speaks eloquently of both newness and protection. 546’s Welcome Place is a sound solution: an intelligent, briskly contemporary expression of the client’s compassionate program.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/home...cts-doing-more-for-less/article17476807/
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  #2443  
Old Posted Mar 13, 2014, 4:59 PM
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Welcome Place, Winnipeg, by 5468796 Architecture. The 23-unit block offers transitional shelter to freshly-landed refugees from parts of the world afflicted by violence and strife. For a project cost of $152 a square foot, the firm has fashioned a very fresh, pertly modernist building that speaks eloquently of both newness and protection. 546’s Welcome Place is a sound solution: an intelligent, briskly contemporary expression of the client’s compassionate program.
Great column about an excellent project. I thought I'd point out that MTS TV On Demand offers an interesting (and free) short documentary about life at Welcome Place... it's called "Arrival". It gives you an inside look at this facility.
     
     
  #2444  
Old Posted Mar 13, 2014, 5:01 PM
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For a project cost of $152 a square foot, the firm has fashioned a very fresh, pertly modernist building that speaks eloquently of both newness and protection.
If that is net of land and soft costs, this would be considered an abysmal failure to control costs. Even if it included soft costs, there's no reason a not-for-profit housing initiative needs a building at those costs. That money is better spend elsewhere within the same initiative at a much greater return. Perhaps I'm in the minority, but every time I hear about another build cost associated with the 'geniuses' over at 546, it just reconfirms that I'd never use them under any circumstance where a budget needed to be adhered to...
     
     
  #2445  
Old Posted Mar 13, 2014, 5:19 PM
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$152 per square foot is extremely low construction cost....nothing gets built for that....not much gets built for twice that.

ask how much the united way paid for their ray wanderful on main street.

that is 90210's best building in my opinion......my favourite anyways.
     
     
  #2446  
Old Posted Mar 13, 2014, 5:54 PM
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$152 per square foot is extremely low construction cost....nothing gets built for that....not much gets built for twice that.
Well, first we have to decide what's included in the costs. If we're talking net of land and soft costs, nearly every single condominium brought to market today is built somewhere between $120-$140/sq ft dependent upon finishings. This assumes it isn't high rise construction, of course. Apartment buildings of the same variety - remaining in Part 9 of the code - are built somewhere in the neighbourhood of $105 - $115/sq ft. We would then assign a land value of approximately $30K per door (market is anywhere between $25K-$35K on average) and a soft cost mark up of around $10K per door including architectural, engineering, legal, financing costs, accrued interest, etc. Using market rents in the two bedroom category of $1250 and $980 in the one-bedroom category, once we account for vacancy, management, and and expense ratio of 35% on new construction, you're generating *less* than a 6% return. If we were looking at the same piece of land and doing townhouses or condominiums, using the build costs and land costs I provided for above but using a soft cost figure of closer to $25K (more stringent legal, survey, warranty costs, etc...), your return on equity is somewhere around 30% assuming you don't get stuck with a few units for a period greater than 8 months. That return on equity sounds good, but it's only your *equity*; it doesn't account for the fact that a large portion of your equity is made up of pre-sale deposits that isn't *your* equity and that there's a significant amount of risk tied up in all the borrowed money. On a $3MM project, you may only make $200K or so if everything goes exactly to plan. If people couldn't achieve these relatively nominal returns, nobody would build. If prices escalated to double and it was done as an investment and not a vanity project, then things would *really* never get built.

The world of high-rise construction is very different. Costs per square foot are closer to $260 and that's why almost none exists here: nobody is willing to pay $600/sq ft to live in 500 square feet of space. Maybe D Condo changes that, though.

In your world of institutional and high-grade commercial, you're probably spot on. But this thing is neither of those and it looks like a fortress next to single family dwelling. $152/square foot for what I'm seeing and what they're getting - assuming, of course, it's net of soft costs and land - is just simply too high.
     
     
  #2447  
Old Posted Mar 13, 2014, 5:59 PM
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Originally Posted by trueviking View Post
$152 per square foot is extremely low construction cost....nothing gets built for that....not much gets built for twice that.
You must work on a lot of government jobs...

Most low rise, wood frame residential will run in and around the $150 range. It's low, but doable. Nothing fancy.
     
     
  #2448  
Old Posted Mar 13, 2014, 6:07 PM
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Can you provide some examples, Simplicity? I'm curious to see what sort of building costs what to build.
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  #2449  
Old Posted Mar 13, 2014, 7:02 PM
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Originally Posted by drew View Post
You must work on a lot of government jobs...

Most low rise, wood frame residential will run in and around the $150 range. It's low, but doable. Nothing fancy.

Even that figure would be all in. Notwithstanding the very few condos in the Osborne Village area that are retailing somewhere in the neighbourhood of $320-$330/sq ft and are all Part 3 buildings which means a significantly higher build cost, most new low rise condos and townhouses in the newer subdivisions are retailing somewhere in the neighbourhood of $220-$245/ sq ft inclusive of GST. They get cheaper per square foot as the size goes up, but that's about standard for an average 1400 square foot townhouse or 900 square foot condo. With at least $25K/unit in soft costs and another $25-$30K in land costs, you can see how $150/sq ft build cost doesn't leave much left over. That's especially true when you're building in land zoned RMF-S which most of the new developments of this nature are.
     
     
  #2450  
Old Posted Mar 13, 2014, 7:06 PM
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Can you provide some examples, Simplicity? I'm curious to see what sort of building costs what to build.
Go into any of the new developments and you'll find them. Anything infill would be the same. Anything buildings under 4 storeys, anything that's a townhome or rowhouse - they're all the same. Stick frame, piles, no basements, whatever. The costs to construct that stuff is well under $150/sq ft net of land and soft costs.

If it wasn't, you couldn't build. The cost of land today is too prohibitive...
     
     
  #2451  
Old Posted Mar 13, 2014, 7:13 PM
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I saw city surveyers out on Main between Portage and McDermot... I'm wondering if they are out there as part due diligence for the sale of the parking lot/201 Portage or (and I sure hope this isn't the case) if the private approach by-law got amended as part of the project and now that they aren't building the hotel they still want to put a private approach.

Any legal team would be able to say that if a private approach for a hotel wouldn't interfere with traffic on Main, then why would a private approach for a parking lot.
     
     
  #2452  
Old Posted Mar 13, 2014, 7:54 PM
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Originally Posted by drew View Post
You must work on a lot of government jobs...

Most low rise, wood frame residential will run in and around the $150 range. It's low, but doable. Nothing fancy.
ha ha....yes, I'm a fat cat.

I will admit that I don't do much stick frame low rise, but the last 3 storey life lease thing our office did was around $190psf....I know the TOD stuff going up in fort rouge is around $180psf....no land costs included.

when I look at the quality of welcome place, it appears to be a great value for $152....I think that is the point....they are doing work that is exceptional design quality for a lower cost than the ubiquitous crap being thrown up....how much less is up for debate, but still less...I think that WRHA office building was done for less than $200psf, which is excellent....an empty shell for a strip mall costs $140.

I'm doing a little 60 unit 5 storey thing in the exchange right now, so I'll let you know what it comes out to....we are budgeting $180-190.
     
     
  #2453  
Old Posted Mar 13, 2014, 9:13 PM
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ha ha....yes, I'm a fat cat.

I will admit that I don't do much stick frame low rise, but the last 3 storey life lease thing our office did was around $190psf....I know the TOD stuff going up in fort rouge is around $180psf....no land costs included.

when I look at the quality of welcome place, it appears to be a great value for $152....I think that is the point....they are doing work that is exceptional design quality for a lower cost than the ubiquitous crap being thrown up....how much less is up for debate, but still less...I think that WRHA office building was done for less than $200psf, which is excellent....an empty shell for a strip mall costs $140.

I'm doing a little 60 unit 5 storey thing in the exchange right now, so I'll let you know what it comes out to....we are budgeting $180-190.
Seniors housing works out to be more expensive because of some of the requirements. Anything at five storeys is into Part 3 requiring elevators, sprinklers - the whole nine. Budgeting for this would be higher. If the WRHA built that bunker for $200/ft and it's concrete and steel, that's a hell of a bargain, I won't lie, but strip malls are also constructed out of steel, concrete and glass so $140 for an empty shell is actually right on par.

If you like, I can send you spreadsheets that show costs and rates of return. Shindico is at something like $24/sq ft triple net and the tenant is responsible for leaseholds, so it all seems to be about right.

Is Welcome Place all stick framed?
     
     
  #2454  
Old Posted Mar 13, 2014, 10:27 PM
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I'd love to see that! Would be very interesting.
     
     
  #2455  
Old Posted Mar 13, 2014, 11:42 PM
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I'd love to see that! Would be very interesting.
Is there any way to direct message you? This old-school forum platform is a little beyond my capabilities from a technological standpoint...
     
     
  #2456  
Old Posted Mar 14, 2014, 2:52 AM
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click on my name and 'send a private message' will come up.
     
     
  #2457  
Old Posted Mar 14, 2014, 6:51 AM
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Now taking reservations for tonight:

http://homewoodsuites3.hilton.com/en/hot...-airport-polo-park-mb-YWGWWHW/index.html

Winnipeg is now at three Hilton family properties (unfortunately, all at the airport-ish area)
     
     
  #2458  
Old Posted Mar 14, 2014, 1:34 PM
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Is Welcome Place all stick framed?
If I recall it is structural steel, masonry and precast construction.
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  #2459  
Old Posted Mar 14, 2014, 2:41 PM
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If I recall it is structural steel, masonry and precast construction.

If that's true then that's a low cost on that level of construction.
     
     
  #2460  
Old Posted Mar 15, 2014, 1:53 AM
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Originally Posted by steveosnyder View Post
I saw city surveyers out on Main between Portage and McDermot... I'm wondering if they are out there as part due diligence for the sale of the parking lot/201 Portage or (and I sure hope this isn't the case) if the private approach by-law got amended as part of the project and now that they aren't building the hotel they still want to put a private approach.

Any legal team would be able to say that if a private approach for a hotel wouldn't interfere with traffic on Main, then why would a private approach for a parking lot.
like i said long time ago

d condos happening over budget tho
hotel portage and main happening
fortress project highly unlikely to move forward they want the city or province to fund the start up costs.. they have no grocer signed on yet for building either and that was key phase of the project
     
     
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