Future Transit System Fantasy Ideas

[Aylmer]

I also have a never-before-seen version of the map posted by Defishel with additional lines and extensions.



Cool little thing about the network is that there is only one case where more than 3 transfers would be needed (Gatineau Line to Saint-Laurent line) to make a trip from anywhere to anywhere, including regional rail.

[Buggys]

Originally Posted by defishel

Hm, I'm thinking you may be right. As great as it would be for Coliseum and Croydon to have their own stations, Pinecrest deserves something more. We'd just have to find a way to get people easily to Coliseum, then, without having to go too out of their way.

Wasn't Lincoln Fields going to be moved South more? It would make sense for that area, with lots of development potential, to have their own station.

I'm confused by what you mean about the Greyhound Station. Do you mean move the current Greyhound Bus Station to Bronson and Somerset so it's served by a line? The only thing I can imagine is close is the Lime Greek Gladstone Streetcar Line that comes close enough. It would be weird to detour them just to meet the bus terminal, especially if we see Gladstone turned into an important commercial strip. Having a streetcar line along Catherine is possible, except it's too short and out-of-the-way to have direct transit. Hm...

Maybe if we got rid of the Queensway and had those thought developed there could be a major East-West LRT line or something that could serve them, but then again if there's no Queensway the terminal might have to move elsewhere, possibly to VIA Rail.

The thick lines are underground LRT under Bank and Somerset, the thin lines are surface streetcars on Bronson and Gladstone. The circle is the bus terminal.

Sorry, I had thought that Bronson station was on Carling. Oh well. I think Greyhound busses can just as well stop at stations that are near highway exits. For the West end, we could have Bayshore or Pinecrest. For downtown, we could have Lees or Hurdman. For the East end, we could have Blair.

[Urbanarchit]

Originally Posted by Buggys

Sorry, I had thought that Bronson station was on Carling. Oh well. I think Greyhound busses can just as well stop at stations that are near highway exits. For the West end, we could have Bayshore or Pinecrest. For downtown, we could have Lees or Hurdman. For the East end, we could have Blair.

Well, there would be a streetcar line with a stop at Bronson and Carling, but that isn't really near the bus terminal. The best thing would be to move the bus terminal to a location near a transit station (or on top of one), but integrate it with it's surroundings.

For example, the transit station for Isabella and Bank could have an underground terminus that connects to buildings on the North side of the Queensway. Then the terminal could be moved East one block, with some offices or whatever above it, retail all along Bank Street (I like Arum and Dolsot a lot, so they should remain, but the gas station would be replaced). Entrances to the LRT and buses would be on the sides, and the buses would be inside the building like Montreal's bus terminal, but still have access to Kent. If willing, we could move it to the block alongside the Queensway on Bank.

This way people still have direct access to an LRT line, but we can build a better building with different uses.

[Urbanarchit]

Originally Posted by Aylmer

I just finished up the streetcar map, for which I also took some liberties, notably by extending the Vanier line into Lowertown and extending the Preston line into the new Chaudière islands and Montcalm developments.

I'm personally a little sceptical of streetcars, since they don't provide any more mobility than a bus (though there are many other arguments). I would want it to have reserved lanes wherever possible (like on Vanier, parts of King Edward and Bronson).

But from a quality and attractiveness perspective, a streetcar would be lovely

I sort of thought that, too, but I think there's still a benefit. Streetcars would use electricity instead of fossil fuels, and they wouldn't get stuck in traffic as much like buses because they'd have their own dedicated lanes that only other streetcars could use. Intersections would be typical, but otherwise they could be better than buses.

I like the map. I like how the line that goes to Dow's Lake was extended across the Booth Street Bridge. Though one problem with the Bronson tram going down Sparks Street would be that Sparks turning into Bronson is so narrow it would be impossible to allow for anything other than one streetcar, and no pedestrians or private vehicles, through at a time. Queen Street would be easier, I think.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by defishel

As for the Greyhound bus station... it seems hard to meet the needs of everything in Ottawa with a transit line. A streetcar line could be introduced for Catherine Street, but there's the Blue line that goes a block away on Bank Street.

It makes more sense to bring the bus terminal to the transit system, than to bring the transit system to the miserable, poorly-located, bus terminal.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by defishel

I sort of thought that, too, but I think there's still a benefit. Streetcars would use electricity instead of fossil fuels, and they wouldn't get stuck in traffic as much like buses because they'd have their own dedicated lanes that only other streetcars could use. Intersections would be typical, but otherwise they could be better than buses.

I like the map. I like how the line that goes to Dow's Lake was extended across the Booth Street Bridge. Though one problem with the Bronson tram going down Sparks Street would be that Sparks turning into Bronson is so narrow it would be impossible to allow for anything other than one streetcar, and no pedestrians or private vehicles, through at a time. Queen Street would be easier, I think.

You could do the same thing with buses only it would be better. Street running street cars even in a dedicated lane will inevitably conflict with regular traffic. An accident involving a streetcar will block the line and interrupt service. So would an accident at an intersection that happens to block the line. Buses could run around it. This is one of the reasons why streetcars were removed from Ottawa streets. Also, you could build a dedicated lane for buses much cheaper than doing the same thing for streetcars. With sufficient political will, we could implement something like this almost immediately, and run buses faster and more efficiently.

[White Pine]

Originally Posted by Aylmer

I also have a never-before-seen version of the map posted by Defishel with additional lines and extensions.



Cool little thing about the network is that there is only one case where more than 3 transfers would be needed (Gatineau Line to Saint-Laurent line) to make a trip from anywhere to anywhere, including regional rail.

This is fantastic! I like how it goes to community destinations like the CTC, Landsdowne, Mooney's Bay, airport, etc! There are some (cough, watson) who seem to think that transit should be a cattle prod to funnel people downtown.

Not so with this map. covers everywhere twice over which provides traffic relief. Especially Landsdowne, I like how not everyone will be forced onto one line.

The commuter picture gets a bit clouded at Pembroke, as there are a few choices of alignments (though that isn't an issue in a fantasy thread lol), but all in all it's great.

[Aylmer]

Pembroke? There are still bridges and rail beds from the rails they removed just a year or two ago. I though those could just be reused, just like on the line to Carleton Place.

I'm glad that you like the map! It's not untrue that transit should fulfill the role of 'cattle prod', especially in high-demand, low-car areas like downtown. However, through research and travel, I've really come to see attractive, convenient transit as a powerful tool for development, redevelopment and the reinforcement of walkable corridors. Lines along existing drags such as Carling, Merrivale, Baseline, St-Laurent, Chemin d'Aylmer, Gréber, Maloney, La Carrière and others could be easily and profitably redeveloped into new Wellington Wests and Bank Streets in only we provided an alternative to the car which would be appealing to the majority of people for all their trips, not only their commute. This means that transit does indeed need to be more than a funnel ― it needs to be a network connecting people to jobs, cinemas, beaches, schools, shops and other people too. An error we too often make is to assume that all ridership is equal. But instead, we need to ask ourselves whether an extension or line will permit people to live car-free since only that will allow us to build around people and not the automobile.

If we want to make our city great, we don't need new monuments, museums or grand vistas ― we need a walkable, livable city tied together with a network of main streets made possible by transit.

[White Pine]

Originally Posted by Aylmer

Pembroke? There are still bridges and rail beds from the rails they removed just a year or two ago. I though those could just be reused, just like on the line to Carleton Place.

Oh, you're right about that. there is plenty of that stuff in Pembroke for now. What I was more getting at is wondering to myself whether it would be wiser to connect Pembroke though the Ontario tracks or the ones on the Quebec side. The Ontario option connects Pembroke to cities it has a relationship with, like Renfrew, Arnprior, etc.

On the other hand, Pembroke people going to Ottawa would likely prefer the Quebec option (CN) as a potentially faster, more direct route. And I don't really know who around here (Pembroke) would take a commuter train to Renfrew to spend a day without a car. The Ontario line (CP) also has many at grade crossings in Renfrew and Arnprior, which would slow things down (though it wouldn't really matter if the train stopped there anyways)

That was what I was thinking of. It isn't a hole in your plan at all, everything you're proposing is perfectly logical/feasible, especially with the Dream Transit Plan Money tree. The corridors and bridges are all there. All that's needed is tracks, plus a short spur in Arnprior to connect the track from Ottawa to CP from Smiths Falls. The beauty is that all the Pembroke rail lines are connected. you could (if there were rails) come in on either CP or CN, and leave the other way back on CP to Petawawa and beyond. You could also go into Algonquin Park (I don't know whether anyone from Ottawa would use a daily/weekly DMU service to Achray).

Anyways, more on topic, you're right about the role of Transit. Getting to work downtown is very important. However, having been a tourist in places you can go anywhere you want to on a subway, it's frustrating to hear things like "we won't put a stop at the airport because it won't add trips during rush hour" . That stuff makes me facepalm. I also wonder why they haven't considered twinning the O-train line, but that's a different rant.

I thought it was an interesting idea to make Palladium a commuter rail stop rather than a subway.


I'll also comment on the streetcar discussion. I took the streetcar every day in Toronto for a month, and they have pros and cons. They're cool, smooth, easy, and efficient like most rail transit, but red lights (especially combined with multiple streetcars), accidents, and even left-turning cars can make annoying delays in the system.

[Aylmer]

Originally Posted by White Pine

I thought it was an interesting idea to make Palladium a commuter rail stop rather than a subway.

Actually, the black and white lines would be O-Train lines: peak frequencies would be as high as a train every 5 minutes and would run every 10-20 minutes off-peak, all day.

The reason that I didn't think that an extension of urban LRT was appropriate was because it would overextend urban systems, resulting in either too few stations in the city or too slow a trip to get to the outer suburbs.

[1overcosc]

Normally when I see transit fantasy maps my first response is to suggest new lines to add.... but there really aren't I can think of (other than a few more rural lines). This map simply has way too much coverage!

The cool thing is that many of these lines wouldn't actually be that expensive. Some sections on Bank, Rideau, and Somerset would have to be underground thus costing megabucks, but most look rather cheap. The whole network (not including the amounts the city has already built/planning to build in phase 2) maybe at $6B or so? If we got some of those revenue tools that Metrolinx is planning plus a nice federal contribution it could actually be reality.

In the US the federal government funds 75% of the capital cost of the Washington DC metro system on the grounds of it being the national capital... if only OUR federal government pledged to fund 75% of any transit projects

[Buggys]

Originally Posted by Aylmer

I also have a never-before-seen version of the map posted by Defishel with additional lines and extensions.



Cool little thing about the network is that there is only one case where more than 3 transfers would be needed (Gatineau Line to Saint-Laurent line) to make a trip from anywhere to anywhere, including regional rail.

I have to chime in to agree with the other posters here.... Your map ties Ottawa's destinations together really well. I really want to take these routes... NOW!

And +1 for dedicated bus lanes instead of streetcars.

[Aylmer]

^eh? BRT? The map dfishel commissioned was a map for streetcars.

^^ In fact, I would actually remove the Orange line east of Westboro (since most of it is less than 500m from the Red line) and just make it an extension of the Yellow line.

With that gone, here are my very rough cost estimations:


Ottawa LRT and Metro LRT

Blue Line - Bank: $1.5B (9km total, 7km tunnelled)
Magenta Line - Interprovincial: $700M (36km total, 1.5km tunnelled, 0.9km bridged)
Yellow Line - Montreal: $1.2B (8km of new track, 4km tunnelled)
Red Line - Confederation: $4B (40km total, 5km tunnelled)

St-Laurent LRT: $400M (9km total)
Carling LRT: $700M (16km, 0.7km tunnelled
Baseline LRT: $500M (16km total)
Alta Vista LRT: $300M (9km total)

TOTAL: $9.3B ― 87km (Ontario only)


Gatineau LRT

Gatineau Trunk: $350M (8km total, 0.2km tunnelled, 0.7km converted Alexandra Bridge)
Aylmer LRT: $300M (10km total)
Plateau LRT: $150M (5km total)
Hull LRT: $150M (5km new track)
Gatineau LRT: $200M (7km new track, 0.4km bridge)

TOTAL: $1.5B — 50km


Regional Rail

Union Station Spur: $1B (3km total, 1.5km tunnelled +underground concourse)
Urban Trunk: $250M (25km total, 4 underpasses/overpasses)

Kanata O-Train: $50M (7km)
Statesville O-Train: $50M (10km)
Barrhaven O-Train: $100M (8km of upgraded track, 2km of new track)
Orleans O-Train: $100M (15km new track)
Buckingham O-Train: $100M (36km of upgraded track)

Renfrew: $50M (25km of new track)
Petawawa: $120M (60km of new track)
Almonte: $50M (20km of new track)
Perth: $120M (60km of upgraded track)
Alexandria: $150M (80km of upgraded track)
Montebello: $50M (40km of upgraded track)
Wakefield: $30M (35km of upgraded track)

TOTAL: 2.2B ― 425km



TOTAL TOTAL (totally) $13B ― 610km



Surely if Metrolinx can fund $50B for a region of 6M, they could find $13B for a region of 1.25M! Plus, we'd have another province to subsidise a quarter of it

[Urbanarchit]

Do you mean extend the yellow line to Westboro and have it go up Merivale instead of the Orange Line? My hope would then be fore the orange line to continue to Cleary under Richmond Road like in 1overcosc's map. It was originally supposed to go straight down Somerset, Welli West, Richmond in any case, without any connections to the Red LRT line.

But that way the commercial and residential area West of Churchill would be served and then connect with the Red Line.

The new city council, if we do get a new one, needs to get serious about transit and do much of these lines. But I don't think they would, especially as they are worried more about the suburbs, and not the city overall...

Originally Posted by Aylmer

^eh? BRT? The map dfishel commissioned was a map for streetcars.

In fact, I would actually remove the Orange line east of Westboro (since most of it is less than 500m from the Red line) and just make it an extension of the Yellow line.

With that gone, here are my very rough cost estimations:

Blue Line - Bank: $1.5B (9km total, 7km tunnelled)
Magenta Line - Interprovincial: $700M (36km total, 1.5km tunnelled, 0.9km bridged)
Yellow Line - Montreal: $1.2B (8km of new track, 4km tunnelled)
Red Line - Confederation: $4B (40km total, 5km tunnelled)

St-Laurent LRT: $400M (9km total)
Carling LRT: $700M (16km, 0.7km tunnelled
Baseline LRT: $500M (16km total)
Alta Vista LRT: $300M (9km total)

TOTAL: $9.3B ― 87km (Ontario only)


Gatineau Trunk: $350M (8km total, 0.2km tunnelled, 0.7km converted Alexandra Bridge)
Aylmer LRT: $300M (10km total)
Plateau LRT: $150M (5km total)
Hull LRT: $150M (5km new track)
Gatineau LRT: $200M (7km new track, 0.4km bridge)

TOTAL: $1.5B — 50km



Union Station Spur: $1B (3km total, 1.5km tunnelled +underground concourse)
Urban Trunk: $250M (25km total, 4 underpasses/overpasses)

Kanata O-Train: $50M (7km)
Statesville O-Train: $50M (10km)
Barrhaven O-Train: $100M (8km of upgraded track, 2km of new track)
Orleans O-Train: $100M (15km new track)
Buckingham O-Train: $100M (36km of upgraded track)

Renfrew: $50M (25km of new track)
Petawawa: $120M (60km of new track)
Almonte: $50M (20km of new track)
Perth: $120M (60km of upgraded track)
Alexandria: $150M (80km of upgraded track)
Montebello: $50M (40km of upgraded track)
Wakefield: $30M (35km of upgraded track)

TOTAL: 2.2B ― 425km



TOTAL TOTAL (totally) $13B ― 610km



Surely if Metrolinx can fund $50B for a region of 6M, they could find $13B for a region of 1.25M!

[Catenary]

Originally Posted by Aylmer

Actually, the black and white lines would be O-Train lines: peak frequencies would be as high as a train every 5 minutes and would run every 10-20 minutes off-peak, all day.

The reason that I didn't think that an extension of urban LRT was appropriate was because it would overextend urban systems, resulting in either too few stations in the city or too slow a trip to get to the outer suburbs.

The benefit of running full on rail lines to Palladium is that on event nights the commuter trains that serve the rest of the region during the day could be run out to serve the event, supplementing the diesel light rail. A full GO Train (12 Bi-Level cars) seats almost 2000 people, and that doesn't include standees. Even if the terminus only had room to stable 2 or three trains, this would take a noticeable bite out of post-event traffic. Skipping past the leg to downtown (I don't know if there is room for a locomotive hauled train at Union anymore, Tremblay Rd. would probably still be the VIA stop) this post game service would be able to run straight across the city at least as far as the Innes Station.

[Aylmer]

I figure that, if we were to go through the expense of building an underground station downtown, it should also serve as our main intercity rail station.

I agree with your idea of having high-capacity 'special event' trains, but I would think that, for such frequent service and stops, EMUs or DMUs would be more appropriate.

[White Pine]

So Aylmer, do you think it's possible to work with the crowding of the mainline from Union? Your o-train idea is very good, but they all seem to branch onto the same lines, which could create difficulties with 5 minute service+commuter rail. Would it just be a matter of adding more track?

[J.OT13]

I've seen a lot of good dream transit plan maps for the OT area, and this one from Aylmer is no different. But why is it that every time someone comes up with a new map, they always exclude a direct Gatineau-La Cité Collégiale transit line. At least half the students are from the Québec side.

Which brings another problem; there are two "La Cité" stations; the College and the "want to be future ByWard market with the National Archives" in Gatineau.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by White Pine

So Aylmer, do you think it's possible to work with the crowding of the mainline from Union? Your o-train idea is very good, but they all seem to branch onto the same lines, which could create difficulties with 5 minute service+commuter rail. Would it just be a matter of adding more track?

It's a "dream transit plan", so the tunnel between the Tremblay station and Union could be double/triple tracked splitting into 10-12 under Union. Note that TO' Union has 16 tracks and MTL's Central has 14.

[Aylmer]

Originally Posted by White Pine

So Aylmer, do you think it's possible to work with the crowding of the mainline from Union? Your o-train idea is very good, but they all seem to branch onto the same lines, which could create difficulties with 5 minute service+commuter rail. Would it just be a matter of adding more track?

I imagine that it would be a matter of having 3 or 4 tracks from Hurdman to Union and 2-3 tracks for the Hurdman-Riverside trunk.

If we assume a minimum headway of 2 minutes on the trunk lines, 4 tracks would allow for one train every 90 seconds (1.5 minutes). That means that, if evenly distributed, each one of the O-Train lines could have a frequency of up to 6 minutes and regional rail could operate up to every 18 minutes on each line.

With double-Decker DMUs, that translates into a maximum of 12000 pphpd to Orleans, Barrhaven, Kanata and Stittsville (roughly the same as two six-lane highways). Regional rail could operate at a maximum of 4200 pphpd (the equivalent of a four-lane divided highway).

Of course, we won't need that kind of capacity for quite a while, but the whole point is that the system will be able to be scaled up to accommodate such intense demand, all while also being appropriate for today's needs.

Originally Posted by J.OT13

It's a "dream transit plan", so the tunnel between the Tremblay station and Union could be double/triple tracked splitting into 10-12 under Union. Note that TO' Union has 16 tracks and MTL's Central has 14.

This is what I imagine from an underground concourse, though 12 might be a little excessive for our current needs. I'm no expert, but I would think that 6-10 would suffice. With 6m platforms (the width of a two-lane street), a six-track concourse would only require a space the width of Union itself, so it wouldn't conflict with underground parking or the Canal. Convenient.

Originally Posted by J.OT13

I've seen a lot of good dream transit plan maps for the OT area, and this one from Aylmer is no different. But why is it that every time someone comes up with a new map, they always exclude a direct Gatineau-La Cité Collégiale transit line. At least half the students are from the Québec side.

Which brings another problem; there are two "La Cité" stations; the College and the "want to be future ByWard market with the National Archives" in Gatineau.

You know what, I completely missed that! Maybe I could change it to 'Félix Leclerc' or change the other Cité to 'Cite Collégiale'.

As for the direct line, perhaps, if, god forbid, they build the Kettle Island Bridge, LRT lanes could be added for a Cité to Cité line. As it is, most people from Gatineau (except for those on the lime green Gréber line) would only have to transfer once to get there. It also allows for easy access to Orleans and Vanier.