Phoenix Development News (3)

[soleri]

Originally Posted by nickw252

Looks like it will be all fenced in and closed up to the street.

Who owns that land?

I don't have the energy to check the archives but a Tel Aviv developer bought the property from a Boise holding company for around $25,000,000 eight or nine years ago. They were intending to build three 30-story condo towers called One Phoenix but that was right before the market crashed. If the property has transferred since then, I haven't heard anything. BTW, Gray-Olsen, was going to build 300 apartments on that site in 2000 which would have had ground-floor retail facing Central and McDowell. For some reason, it didn't pencil out. They had bought the land for around $4 million before selling to the Boise company for $12.5 million in 2004.

[combusean]

While I detest the proliferation of 4 story buildings in Midtown where the land can be used to a much greater advantage, the simple fact remains that the land values and demand do not dictate going much higher. I would have liked to offer a ray of hope that maybe increased residents would beget later higher demand, but we'd need so many of them to make a difference.

Then again 320 units or so on that corner (if that siteplan is representative of all floors) isn't that bad. One Phoenix was only supposed to have 920 if it even fully built out, and developers rarely build phase two in Phoenix, let alone phase three.

[Leo the Dog]

Originally Posted by exit2lef

As for the one-block pedestrian / transit mall proposed for Central through CityScape, the rationale being given is that a decade from now, once light rail extensions to the south and west sides of Phoenix are in place, there may be trains passing through there nearly all the time, making if difficult to fit in travel lanes for car and regulate those lanes with traffic signals.

Unless I'm looking at it wrong (which I could be) it appears the pedestrian mall stretches from Jefferson to Polk along Central.

Northbound Central traffic is diverted to 1st St. Which will be a one way and have to be modified according to the plan. This seems like an awful idea.

[R.C113]

Yet again Phoenix continues to disappoint and contradict itself in terms of which way the city should grow and develop. I really wouldn't understand the point of the light rail when put to thinking terms of future references, say 50 years from now when the city is more populated and dense. The vacant land that sits on Central & McDowell really shouldn't indulge towards such suburban fashion and culture but rather a more dense, mixed-use project that contains residential and retail units that can later benefit the surrounding neighborhood, downtown 'areas' and the commute along the light rail into something more suitable and sustainable. Something more urban and "central." A plan like the one that's been put forward would really just defeat all purpose in centralizing the core, and the very existence of the light rail. Why commute on such a path that ultimately only barks up people's front lawns? Phoenix needs to become more integrated in it's surrounding neighborhoods and not use all main space running along the main corridor. Maybe if the city acquired more taxis's/buses/shuttles around downtown or a few central transit stations, perhaps, something signature of Phoenix, would we then make sense of a project like the one proposed that could potentially use many of the other vacant lots throughout the city. The city must think of the future being that it is one of the newer cities to emerge out of the US and with such a staggering growth rate that the valley of the sun is soon to be predicted as one of the mega cities of America by 2050. What becomes of DT and Midtown in the future if we miss-use the land that we have left to work with? Don't let us down Phoenix! You should be the Dubai of America, sort of speak.,

[Jjs5056]

Regardless of whether the project brings a similar amount of residents to the core as previous proposals did, the design is a complete abomination and insult to the city.

We reminisce on developers like Luhrs who were so proud as to place their name on their projects; at least the developers of One Phoenix had a vision of creating a signature project based on the site's surroundings: a hugely successful light-rail, well-regarded museums, state of the art library, re-designed Deck Park that while may be unimaginative, should at least spark some interest for the first year or 2, thriving historic districts and revitalized neighborhood centers to the south on 7th ave/McDowell... the list goes on. Ballet Arizona built a small, urban HQ to the north of the site, and sold the western portion of land... where 3-story infill is being built. Yet, on a signature corner, we can't get more than 4 stories?

Again, though, height and number of units aren't the issue. Give me a 4-story proposal that meets the street, and has space for a History of TV museum per the developers' negotiations with the owner since they didn't want anything else but a museum to go on this corner. 4-stories with multiple ins and outs for public plazas with public art to honor the Midtown Museum District. But, 4 stories and a gated community? With surface lots and garages taller than the homes? How sick.

It's time developers like this, Alliance, and all the others to get the hell out - I'm sick of them building gated communities in our central city. I don't agree that there isn't a demand for the conveniences of urban living in this city: walking out your front door and being able to find services nearby or catching a train to grab a really special something on the weekend/maybe catch a game. But, aside from Union on Roosevelt, every other project has hailed down to the auto; we are never going to get anywhere with these developments that make it easier for residents to walk into their garage and into their SUV and out into the suburb they left to go shopping. We need to force them out their door, down their walk-up, or through their lobby and out onto the street. And, the more we throw into the wild, the more who will start yelling "where the hell's my Safeway, Fred?" and maybe we can stop pretending like a grocery is coming for the 8th year in a row and actually get one!

Lennar should be ashamed, as should anyone in the City that allows such design to even be displayed.

300+ units is enough for a ~22-story tower. Why not give us a signature design to highlight the museum and library, and use the rest of the grounds for open space plazas and parks, with public art and small retail? Nah, easier to paste their plan for Gilbert.

Why did we even build the light rail again? We should've cut it at Roosevelt/3rd; midtown is a disgusting blighted ghost-town and clearly nobody in our city is even trying to revive its faint pulse.

[exit2lef]

Originally Posted by Leo the Dog

Unless I'm looking at it wrong (which I could be) it appears the pedestrian mall stretches from Jefferson to Polk along Central.

Northbound Central traffic is diverted to 1st St. Which will be a one way and have to be modified according to the plan. This seems like an awful idea.

No, I was wrong in saying that it was "one block." The proposal is for it actually go from Jefferson up to Central Station to accommodate the high volume of trains traveling along Central once light rail extensions heading south and west are complete.

[KevininPhx]

Originally Posted by Jjs5056

... midtown is a disgusting blighted ghost-town and clearly nobody in our city is even trying to revive its faint pulse.

You know, you're just wrong. A lot. Midtown has the Phx Art Museum, the new opera house, very cool restaurants and hangouts (Lux, Bianco's, etc.). Now, we're getting more people.

You have passion, I'll say that. But you're ideas defy logic. Go to any big city, any one, and just outside of downtown you'll find older four-or-so floor apartment buildings (in Chicago, they're right in downtown) - and no one put their names on these decidedly just OK buildings. You build those, get people in, then when space is tightening up you build up.

That's how it works.

[soleri]

Originally Posted by KevininPhx

You know, you're just wrong. A lot. Midtown has the Phx Art Museum, the new opera house, very cool restaurants and hangouts (Lux, Bianco's, etc.). Now, we're getting more people.

You have passion, I'll say that. But you're ideas defy logic. Go to any big city, any one, and just outside of downtown you'll find older four-or-so floor apartment buildings (in Chicago, they're right in downtown) - and no one put their names on these decidedly just OK buildings. You build those, get people in, then when space is tightening up you build up.

That's how it works.

That's not an opera house. It's the administrative offices and rehearsal space for the Arizona Opera, which performs at Symphony Hall.

I agree with your comment otherwise. There's not much Phoenix can do to retrofit big city muscle on suburban bones. Indeed, it's an ongoing problem where the existing low-density texture and institutional inertia make it fiendishly difficult. Nor is there a magic formula aside from simply getting more people into the core and then - hopefully - creating the need/demand for more vertical arrangements. Phoenix is a very long way from that eventuality as the bankruptcies of 44 Monroe and Summit show. In the meantime, urban curators should lean hard on city government to create a walkable urban environment - trees, landscaping, etc. - along with transit improvements. But as with everything else, you can't force this baby to grow. If it happens, it will be slow, organic, and at times, unnoticeable.

[PHX31]

Originally Posted by Jjs5056

midtown is a disgusting blighted ghost-town and clearly nobody in our city is even trying to revive its faint pulse.

Like KevininPhx also mentioned, I like your passion. A lot of your ideas are great, they're just completely unrealistic. Granted, I do think this proposal is complete garbage, and I think they can do much better. If not them, hopefully someone else.

But your quote about midtown is definitely unfounded hyperbole. Even though it's a terrible site plan, that's still a developer putting their money where their mouth is in Midtown. It's something. Plus there are several other proposals and developments in the works. Obviously they don't meet your idealistic idea of what every development should be, but they're still there.

There is more going on along Central through midtown as well. Panera Bread company is just about to open up at Central & Thomas (albeit in a crappy strip mall type building, but that will help with the lunch crowd, and that's an established "chain" putting their money into central Phoenix). And there is some really cool restaurant about to open across Central from Panera Bread on the SWC of Central and Thomas. It is going in on the ground floor of that previously hideous tower (2828 N. Central/One Thomas). I think it used to be only a parking garage on the ground floor - definitely nothing that engages the street. Now it's what looks like a pretty sleek modern restaurant that looks like it will have a nice patio outside right off the street, as well as new street front steps and entrances. I can't figure out what it is going to be called (I can't read the sign they recently put up and I can't find anything about it online). But that's an adaptive reuse of a previously terrible ground floor of a building. Isn't that exactly what you call for JS?

[Arquitect]

Originally Posted by PHX31

Like KevininPhx also mentioned, I like your passion. A lot of your ideas are great, they're just completely unrealistic. Granted, I do think this proposal is complete garbage, and I think they can do much better. If not them, hopefully someone else.

But your quote about midtown is definitely unfounded hyperbole. Even though it's a terrible site plan, that's still a developer putting their money where their mouth is in Midtown. It's something. Plus there are several other proposals and developments in the works. Obviously they don't meet your idealistic idea of what every development should be, but they're still there.

There is more going on along Central through midtown as well. Panera Bread company is just about to open up at Central & Thomas (albeit in a crappy strip mall type building, but that will help with the lunch crowd, and that's an established "chain" putting their money into central Phoenix). And there is some really cool restaurant about to open across Central from Panera Bread on the SWC of Central and Thomas. It is going in on the ground floor of that previously hideous tower (2828 N. Central/One Thomas). I think it used to be only a parking garage on the ground floor - definitely nothing that engages the street. Now it's what looks like a pretty sleek modern restaurant that looks like it will have a nice patio outside right off the street, as well as new street front steps and entrances. I can't figure out what it is going to be called (I can't read the sign they recently put up and I can't find anything about it online). But that's an adaptive reuse of a previously terrible ground floor of a building. Isn't that exactly what you call for JS?

I second (or third in this case) this opinion of Midtown. I live in Midtown, and I find it to have a lot more life than downtown. There are amazing restaurants and bars up and down the whole Central corridor, all walking distance from the light rail. I actually enjoy living in this area more than I did living in Tempe.

[Jjs5056]

Oh, you're right. Trust me - I love a lot of what is being done north of downtown. I already complimented the amenities within the vicinity of Central/McDowell, as well as the historic districts.

But, the other exciting projects are small-scale ones, with small budgets, by people who care about Phoenix. The mural on that hideous building on Thomas, the Ballet Arizona, artHAUS project, continued restoration projects for great restaurants like Postino's, Windsor, (the renovated Church), etc.

But, we invested in light rail in the hope that it would fill in the gaps that are beyond the reach of this grassroots movement. The blight I refer to are those huge, empty lots, that have been criminally landbanked, and that only developers with big bucks can make the projects pencil out.

If these mass amounts of huge land don't get developed, there's no chance for this area to ever be connected, to ever be a cohesive neighborhood, and to have the residential density needed for us to see so many of things we want to. The office market has already crashed in midtown and it will be tough to rebound; the restaurant scene is thriving, and I thought there was a chance for midtown to rebound as a dense residential feeder neighborhood to downtown with its own unique, arts identity. But, projects like the Alliance one and now this are just purely insulting. This isn't a show of their investment to midtown - it's a cut and paste of a templated gated community they could dump anywhere in the Valley. These developments will force residents to their cars and we'll be nowhere different in 2 years than now.

My frustration is that we built the light rail for these developers, for these big projects, for the connecting land that we couldn't handle on our own. It's not at any of you who use it to head downtown, or to work, etc. The blight I refer to is the lots that have been flipped, landbanked and have insulting or no proposals attached to them - now or ever. The blight isn't for the restored buildings, grassroots community efforts being made.

Sorry for that huge misunderstanding. Well, not misunderstanding, just horrible choice of words.

[Arquitect]

Originally Posted by Jjs5056

Oh, you're right. Trust me - I love a lot of what is being done north of downtown. I already complimented the amenities within the vicinity of Central/McDowell, as well as the historic districts.

But, the other exciting projects are small-scale ones, with small budgets, by people who care about Phoenix. The mural on that hideous building on Thomas, the Ballet Arizona, artHAUS project, continued restoration projects for great restaurants like Postino's, Windsor, (the renovated Church), etc.

But, we invested in light rail in the hope that it would fill in the gaps that are beyond the reach of this grassroots movement. The blight I refer to are those huge, empty lots, that have been criminally landbanked, and that only developers with big bucks can make the projects pencil out.

If these mass amounts of huge land don't get developed, there's no chance for this area to ever be connected, to ever be a cohesive neighborhood, and to have the residential density needed for us to see so many of things we want to. The office market has already crashed in midtown and it will be tough to rebound; the restaurant scene is thriving, and I thought there was a chance for midtown to rebound as a dense residential feeder neighborhood to downtown with its own unique, arts identity. But, projects like the Alliance one and now this are just purely insulting. This isn't a show of their investment to midtown - it's a cut and paste of a templated gated community they could dump anywhere in the Valley. These developments will force residents to their cars and we'll be nowhere different in 2 years than now.

My frustration is that we built the light rail for these developers, for these big projects, for the connecting land that we couldn't handle on our own. It's not at any of you who use it to head downtown, or to work, etc. The blight I refer to is the lots that have been flipped, landbanked and have insulting or no proposals attached to them - now or ever. The blight isn't for the restored buildings, grassroots community efforts being made.

Sorry for that huge misunderstanding. Well, not misunderstanding, just horrible choice of words.

I think you are underestimating the residents of these complexes. Some of my friends live in a similar gated complex on Central, and they use the light rail twice as much as they do their cars. In fact, many people move to these communities because that possibility. They might be gated, but they don't become completely insulated islands from the rest of the city. The same people that live there walk to the restaurants in midtown, and take the light rail to downtown.

Even though they aren't ideal, these projects are still accomplishing your vision.

[Jjs5056]

Also, I let you guys take quite a few swings at me - whether it's calling my ideas unrealistic (when the board is typically slow and I'm simply interested in beouncing ideas off like-minded folk), rolling your eyes at posts I put a lot of thought into and throwing them into the "Debbie Downer" bin only to have those very issues come to surface months later, perpetuating the myth that I don't support any project without groundfloor retail, and so on... and, very rarely have I gotten personal with any of you, or criticized your ideas.

At the very least, you could see from my posts on things as simple as a warehouse renovation on Madison, or bigger warehouse project in Tempe, that I am a fan and supporter of grassroots community efforts. I would like to think that some of you may have at least considered that I simply chose the wrong words. But, alas.

[PHX31]

Originally Posted by Jjs5056

But, projects like the Alliance one and now this are just purely insulting. This isn't a show of their investment to midtown - it's a cut and paste of a templated gated community they could dump anywhere in the Valley. These developments will force residents to their cars and we'll be nowhere different in 2 years than now.

True, they could be much much better. However, the basic fact is that there will be hundreds of additional residents in these areas patronizing all of the great places that actually already do exist. Everything helps.

If someone that may live in this development is "forced" into their car, and they can't figure out how to walk through a gate onto the street to go somewhere close, then they are complete morons. They might not look like the most inviting developments (and let's hope they are improved before anything finally gets built), but people will figure out how to walk to places. It's not like there is a guard tower that will shoot people if they don't leave the premises in their car.

Originally Posted by Arquitect

I think you are underestimating the residents of these complexes. Some of my friends live in a similar gated complex on Central, and they use the light rail twice as much as they do their cars. In fact, many people move to these communities because that possibility. They might be gated, but they don't become completely insulated islands from the rest of the city. The same people that live there walk to the restaurants in midtown, and take the light rail to downtown.

Even though they aren't ideal, these projects are still accomplishing your vision.

Edit: just saw this.

[PHX31]

Keep your ideas coming Jjs... I like the passion. If you feel you need more positive responses, just imagine people are nodding their head approvingly after reading one of your posts... even if they don't respond directly.

[Jjs5056]

Originally Posted by Arquitect

I think you are underestimating the residents of these complexes. Some of my friends live in a similar gated complex on Central, and they use the light rail twice as much as they do their cars. In fact, many people move to these communities because that possibility. They might be gated, but they don't become completely insulated islands from the rest of the city. The same people that live there walk to the restaurants in midtown, and take the light rail to downtown.

Even though they aren't ideal, these projectsn a are still accomplishing your vision.

Fine. You're right.

We should zone for all future residential projects along the light rail corridor to be gated, less than 4-stories, with tandem garages and at least 2 spots per dwelling. The clientele attracted to the area will use resources to get to more urban areas anyway.

I'm not sure what you want me to say? I'll put a *does not apply to 100% of all those to whom this message is relevant toward* disclaimer at the end of my posts if that helps.

If you don't want the Central Corridor to evolve from the gated communities built along it pre-light rail and create TOD and denser projects, then check-mate.

[Jjs5056]

Originally Posted by PHX31

True, they could be much much better. However, the basic fact is that there will be hundreds of additional residents in these areas patronizing all of the great places that actually already do exist. Everything helps.

If someone that may live in this development is "forced" into their car, and they can't figure out how to walk through a gate onto the street to go somewhere close, then they are complete morons. They might not look like the most inviting developments (and let's hope they are improved before anything finally gets built), but people will figure out how to walk to places. It's not like there is a guard tower that will shoot people if they don't leave the premises in their car.



Edit: just saw this.

The point is they ARE GOING TO GET IN THEIR CARS, period. Residential along transit lines should make traveling via foot and rail the most accessible and convenient mode. Garages that are taller than the homes themselves don't do this, and even if all of these residents drive to Windsor, or drive to Bliss, does anyone care about creating an active street life? Does anyone care about retail services being viable to create neighborhood centers and increase land values? Does anyone care about walking on the street and meeting your neighbor at the deli down the street, instead of honking at them as you turn your Cadillac with the your cell in hand?

Oh, but I'm the fool who thinks we should put retail on the ground level when "retail is failing in Phoenix." No shit it's failing. It's failing because everyone is in their car, going to the same grocer, the same mall, the same salon they went to before their move to central Phoenix instead of stepping outside and exploring their new home.

[Arquitect]

Originally Posted by Jjs5056

The point is they ARE GOING TO GET IN THEIR CARS, period. Residential along transit lines should make traveling via foot and rail the most accessible and convenient mode. Garages that are taller than the homes themselves don't do this, and even if all of these residents drive to Windsor, or drive to Bliss, does anyone care about creating an active street life? Does anyone care about retail services being viable to create neighborhood centers and increase land values? Does anyone care about walking on the street and meeting your neighbor at the deli down the street, instead of honking at them as you turn your Cadillac with the your cell in hand?

Oh, but I'm the fool who thinks we should put retail on the ground level when "retail is failing in Phoenix." No shit it's failing. It's failing because everyone is in their car, going to the same grocer, the same mall, the same salon they went to before their move to central Phoenix instead of stepping outside and exploring their new home.

JJ, do you own a car? How many of your friends do you know that live in Phoenix without a car? Or how many people in general do you know that live in Phoenix without a car? As much as we can hate it, the car is and will continue to be the main mode of transportation for Phoenix for much of the foreseeable future. And we aren't the only city that has this phenomenon. It is the way post-war American cities developed, and it is ingrained in American culture. Sure, some areas of cities are becoming urban, and pedestrian; but as a whole, the car still rules. I understand focusing on making downtown Phoenix and Tempe into these hyper-pedestrian communities, but to also try and accomplish this throughout the entirety of midtown is unrealistic. The city is having hard enough of a time trying to urbanize an area that is less than 5 square miles, expanding it to three times that size is just too big of an idealization.

This expansion of downtown ideals into midtown already got Phoenix in trouble once. Imagine that instead of having all of those towers down Central, they were all built in the core. We would actually have a decent looking skyline. Instead, we have elongated it to the point where it becomes dysfunctional.

[poconoboy61]

Originally Posted by KevininPhx

You know, you're just wrong. A lot. Midtown has the Phx Art Museum, the new opera house, very cool restaurants and hangouts (Lux, Bianco's, etc.). Now, we're getting more people.

You have passion, I'll say that. But you're ideas defy logic. Go to any big city, any one, and just outside of downtown you'll find older four-or-so floor apartment buildings (in Chicago, they're right in downtown) - and no one put their names on these decidedly just OK buildings. You build those, get people in, then when space is tightening up you build up.

That's how it works.

Agreed. Midtown does have life to it. Anyone who works there (like me) can see it. There is more activity up here than downtown in terms of new restaurants, proposals for new apartments, and everyday amenities such as a grocery store and 24 hour drug store.

[PHX31]

Here is that new restaurant going in at the SWC of Central/Thomas.

Looks better in person than my pictures. Plus, it's a nice addition to a terrible building.





I still can't make out the name from the sign and no luck on the google search. Anyone know what it is going to be? It kind of reminds me of Hanny's on the inside.