Millennium Line - Broadway Extension: Planning & Pre-Construction

[dleung]

But when it comes to funding it's like a chess game. We took our move and built the Canada line, then Evergreen Line. I rather save the Evergreen line money for a Broadway extension sooner, but at least it was a better choice than what Toronto decided to do with it's $3 billion:



Yes, that's all the stations being built. The nothingness isn't just a blip on the route to a worthwhile destination; the whole route runs down the middle of a 10km swath of industrial land and hydro corridors, where no one lives. The projected ridership in 2030 is 80,000, less than the Millenium Line. So why does it cost 3 billion?




Well the stations look very expensive, yet hideous at the same time








They're also located in the middle of nowhere and served primarily by park and rides.



http://urbantoronto.ca

Here's the kicker... you'd think they'd go elevated or at-grade here, or at least do cut-and-cover in such a no-man's zone, but the entire route is bored tunnel

[queetz@home]

While funding from the Feds is needed for the Broadway Line, I think calling it a "national significance" is a bit delusional. I doubt some guy in the Maritimes or Ontario would benefit if a UBC student gets to school faster. The people at the CDC don't need to be connected to UBC at lightning speed either in the name of research. And in cases that they do, I doubt they would be transporting viles of biohazard samples via a subway train anyway...that's just silly.

The best course of action is to stay in course to lobby for funding with the reasons that infrastructure needs to be upgraded to cope with demand, which everyone already knows about. But "national significance"....oh dear....I dunno if its desperation or sheer size of one's ego. Broadway Line is important, but NOT THAT IMPORTANT, especially on a national level.

[whatnext]

Subways, who needs subways?:

University of Beautiful Cars Blog

[ChrisK]

Originally Posted by dleung

Wow. The project website says:

"The Toronto-York Spadina Subway Extension project is jointly funded by the Government of Canada, the Province of Ontario, the City of Toronto, and The Regional Municipality of York.

The Government of Canada has committed $697 million, of which $75 million has already been provided. The Province of Ontario has provided $870 million, which has been deposited in the Move Ontario Trust. The City of Toronto and The Regional Municipality of York have committed to fund one-third of the total project cost. Toronto will contribute $526 million and York Region will contribute $352 million.

The estimated final project cost is $2.6 billion.

And from Transport Canada:

Since 2006, the Government of Canada has made an unprecedented level of investment in infrastructure, including public transit in the GTA. The federal government has committed over $1.4 billion in direct contribution funding towards public transit projects in the Greater Toronto Area through the Building Canada Fund and Canada Strategic Infrastructure Fund. Commitments include:

$250 million for the GO Transit Improvement Program
$85 million for York VIVA Phase 2, Stage 1
$95 million for Brampton Züm Phases 1 and 2
$83 million for Mississauga Transit
$697 million ($622 million Building Canada Fund/$75 million Public Transit Capital Trust) for the Toronto-York Spadina subway extension
$133 million for the Union Station Revitalization Project
Under the $4-billion Infrastructure Stimulus Fund (ISF), over $100 million was committed towards public transit projects between 2009 and 2011 in the GTA.

In addition to this direct contribution funding, municipalities in the GTA have also used over $1 billion of their federal Gas Tax Fund allocation towards transit investments.

I'd say the Broadway line is very fairly next in national priorities, even thought it may seem a bit grand coming from Gregor Robertson.

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by whatnext

Subways, who needs subways?:

University of Beautiful Cars Blog

"Who needs subways?" .... People without the means to buy and maintain cars need subways, that's who.

[paradigm4]

Originally Posted by queetz@home

While funding from the Feds is needed for the Broadway Line, I think calling it a "national significance" is a bit delusional. I doubt some guy in the Maritimes or Ontario would benefit if a UBC student gets to school faster. The people at the CDC don't need to be connected to UBC at lightning speed either in the name of research. And in cases that they do, I doubt they would be transporting viles of biohazard samples via a subway train anyway...that's just silly.

The best course of action is to stay in course to lobby for funding with the reasons that infrastructure needs to be upgraded to cope with demand, which everyone already knows about. But "national significance"....oh dear....I dunno if its desperation or sheer size of one's ego. Broadway Line is important, but NOT THAT IMPORTANT, especially on a national level.

There's $4 billion in discretionary funds available in the New Building Canada Fund specifically for projects the feds deem of "national significance". There's also $10 billion in provincially-dedicated money from the fund, but that will only amount to $1 billion for BC over the next decade. I think Vancouver's best bet to get enough federal funding for the UBC Line will be to push for $$ from the $4b pot.

[rsxstock]

Originally Posted by paradigm4

There's $4 billion in discretionary funds available in the New Building Canada Fund specifically for projects the feds deem of "national significance". There's also $10 billion in provincially-dedicated money from the fund, but that will only amount to $1 billion for BC over the next decade. I think Vancouver's best bet to get enough federal funding for the UBC Line will be to push for $$ from the $4b pot.

and i would also argue that it IS of national significance as UBC is consistantly ranked 30-40 in the world for public universities (and one of the only in western canada). any development related to the improvement of its growth potential can have a significant rippling effect to the rest of canada, not only economically.

[WarrenC12]

Good grief, DMJ is already all over it:

http://www.news1130.com/2014/02/28/robertsons-subway-pitch-is-about-prestige-lrt-advocate/

For the record, I'm happy Gregor put it out there. Why not? What does he have to lose? He wasn't insulting to the government, just trying to make a case.

[GlassCity]

Did he really say that "The ridership on Broadway just does not need a subway,” “Subways need large passenger flows to justify the construction costs.”

Glad to see most commenters so far saw through the article

[Gordon]

DMJ doesn't differentiate between local & express services. Bus stops along both Broadway & W4th ave. are much closer than 200m . there are clusters of stops 2,3,4 consecutive blocks maybe 80yards apart which slows service down.

[queetz@home]

Originally Posted by rsxstock

and i would also argue that it IS of national significance as UBC is consistantly ranked 30-40 in the world for public universities (and one of the only in western canada).

Ranked 30-40 in the world?? Unless those zeroes are a typo, I seriously doubt that is something that can justify the "national significance" label. And honestly, if putting more prestige in UBC is what is desired here, there are other much more cheaper ways to do it, and it has nothing to do with transportation.

Plus this...

Originally Posted by whatnext

Subways, who needs subways?:

University of Beautiful Cars Blog

UBC is already attractive...to those foreigners that have all the money in the world but want easy access to Canadian higher education (while Canadians such as those wanting to be doctors are displaced). I seriously doubt those Chinese and Middle East richies would give up their Bentleys and Lamborginis for a subway pass soon...

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by trofirhen

"Who needs subways?" .... People without the means to buy and maintain cars need subways, that's who.

Let's not forget that there are plenty of car owners, like myself, who also use transit (and their bicycles, too)!

[cabotp]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

Did he really say that "The ridership on Broadway just does not need a subway,” “Subways need large passenger flows to justify the construction costs.”

Glad to see most commenters so far saw through the article

That kind of quote from MJ doesn't surprise me one bit. My hatred for him is immense to the point that I'd gladly pull the trigger of the gun.

I wouldn't consider the Broadway corrider to be of a "National significance." But it is something that is severly needed. We are simply paying the piper for having our collective fingers stuck up our asses by going through a period of when there was no expansion of major transit lines.

I do think the city of Vancouver has kept the pace of development slow along the broadway corridor. Simply because broadway could never handle influx of residential and jobs with the current transportation provided. That the city wants to see subway so that densification can be handled properly.

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by cabotp

That kind of quote from MJ doesn't surprise me one bit. My hatred for him is immense to the point that I'd gladly pull the trigger of the gun.

I wouldn't consider the Broadway corrider to be of a "National significance." But it is something that is severly needed. We are simply paying the piper for having our collective fingers stuck up our asses by going through a period of when there was no expansion of major transit lines.

I do think the city of Vancouver has kept the pace of development slow along the broadway corridor. Simply because broadway could never handle influx of residential and jobs with the current transportation provided. That the city wants to see subway so that densification can be handled properly.

Yeah, I just can't imagine how he could say something like that when it's the busiest bus route in North America.

I never do understand that argument that LRT people make. If the ridership only requires LRT, than are subways absolutely never needed?

[SFUVancouver]

^ Furthermore, the argument advanced that communities are done a disservice by anything other than at-grade transit is absurd. London, Paris, New York, etc.; these places are not suffering for lack of at-grade rail transit, nor are their neighbourhoods any less vibrant or viable due the presence of subways/metros below their streets in lieu of LRT.

[GlassCity]

I honestly believe that LRT is just a trend that will disappear eventually. It seems like a lot of cities are building LRT lines just because you're supposed to have them, not because they actually need them.

[jlousa]

I think we'd be much more likely to switch tactics here, the province either directly or via Translink will end up paying the costs of a new Massey crossing and a Patullo replacement. If we include a new heavy rail crossing on the Patullo crossing we can easily make the case for both those crossings being of "National" importance as they increase shipping/rail lanes for the country. The Province could then redirect the funds it saves to help pay for the Broadway line. Of course we risk the chance that the province just pockets the savings but that's less likely then the feds actually considering the Bway line of national importance to begin with.

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by jlousa

I think we'd be much more likely to switch tactics here, the province either directly or via Translink will end up paying the costs of a new Massey crossing and a Patullo replacement. If we include a new heavy rail crossing on the Patullo crossing we can easily make the case for both those crossings being of "National" importance as they increase shipping/rail lanes for the country. The Province could then redirect the funds it saves to help pay for the Broadway line. Of course we risk the chance that the province just pockets the savings but that's less likely then the feds actually considering the Bway line of national importance to begin with.

May I say that I hear where you're coming from 100%. The increased rail capacity you cite needs beefing up, too, and perhaps we've been letting slip or lie fallow. And of course a new Massey crossing is inevitable. And for sure both are of NATIONAL importance. And heading straight for the Broadway Line is premature, and as you say, it can be done in a subtler way, drawing attention first to the national road / rail crossings and connectors. What I'm not precise on is the funding. Who's going to pay for this, and how. If you know of such a link, I'll go there. Thanks for your time and consideration.

[queetz@home]

Originally Posted by cabotp

That kind of quote from MJ doesn't surprise me one bit. My hatred for him is immense to the point that I'd gladly pull the trigger of the gun.

Why???? He is just a loud mouth but ultimately harmless. Neither Translink, the Feds or the Province take him seriously.

The only reason why the media gives him attention is because its a slow news day. He's not the only transit enthusiast that the media listens too....the SkytrainForSurrey guy gets it too, as well as Gordon Price, Stephen Reese, and so on.

[trofirhen]

To recap, here's the opener:

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Good grief, DMJ is already all over it:

http://www.news1130.com/2014/02/28/robertsons-subway-pitch-is-about-prestige-lrt-advocate/

For the record, I'm happy Gregor put it out there. Why not? What does he have to lose? He wasn't insulting to the government, just trying to make a case.

other reactions.

Originally Posted by GlassCity

Did he really say that "The ridership on Broadway just does not need a subway,” “Subways need large passenger flows to justify the construction costs.”

Glad to see most commenters so far saw through the article

How could anyone not?

Originally Posted by SFUVancouver

^ Furthermore, the argument advanced that communities are done a disservice by anything other than at-grade transit is absurd. London, Paris, New York, etc.; these places are not suffering for lack of at-grade rail transit, nor are their neighbourhoods any less vibrant or viable due the presence of subways/metros below their streets in lieu of LRT.

Exactly. I live within walking distance of 3 mn to one Métro stop, another 9 mn to take another line to Châtelet. This is not only convenient, but it brings with it a sort of "life" to the quarters served.

Originally Posted by cabotp

That kind of quote from MJ doesn't surprise me one bit. My hatred for him is immense to the point that I'd gladly pull the trigger of the gun. ..... "Do that Mister, and you'll hang." ( Gunsmoke, season 3) please excuse me....

^^I wouldn't consider the Broadway corrider to be of a "National significance." But it is something that is severly needed.

^^^^Whew, you got that right! It ranks tops in importance and priority.