Salt Lake City: Official Development News Thread - Part 3

[Makid]

I had heard that the updates to the Shilo wouldn't start until later this summer.

[Scraperdude801]

Originally Posted by Comrade

This is the biggest problem with the Utah Legislature. It's very monolithic and does not represent the diversity of the state. 90% of the Utah House is LDS. On its face, there is nothing wrong with that statistic - except that Utah's population is 62% LDS. I have no problem with Mormons being in government - but the lack of religious and cultural diversity is startling, especially when you factor in that many LDS members govern solely on their religious values.

Unlike a great deal of the actual members, the people who are citizens of this state, Mormon legislatures increasingly act as moral crusaders. It's appalling, especially from the perspective of a non-Mormon, because I believe that value goes against what makes this country great - the ability to separate church & state. It also gives one religion far more influence over issues than you rarely see in other states where one faith is predominant (my guess is that the Catholic Church has little sway within the halls of the Massachusetts and Rhode Island capitol buildings).

Now that may sound like a divisive viewpoint, but I want to be clear that this view isn't of the LDS Church or a majority of its practicing members. I feel, on the whole, Utah Mormons buy into the idea of 'live and let live' (there will always be individuals who don't, though, like that Utah County Mom who decided to buy out PacSun because of a t-shirt she deemed sexually offensive) - but our legislature certainly doesn't. That's problematic, especially for a governing body whose influence at the state level impacts Mormons and non-Mormons alike.

I know a great deal of Mormons who are insulted by the way our legislature acts. But no one ever holds 'em accountable for their actions. Look at Senator Chris Buttars, a bigot on racial and sexual orientation issues, who only managed to leave office not because of his bigoted and hateful statements, but because he fell ill and couldn't run for reelection.

We are our own worst enemy. We enable the legislature and then complain when they incompetently run the state.

Agreed. I am not a Mormon hater by any means either. I too would like to see some of Utah's other cultures represented politically, though.

[Skystruck]

Wow they are really starting to move on the demolition. I didn't expect to see the Bennion Jewelers building coming down this soon. It's kind of a bittersweet feeling watching these buildings come down. On one hand your sad to see some of these buildings go, but on the other excited for whats to come.

[Future Mayor]

While I agree with the majority of your post Comrade, there are still very strong religous strong hold in governments in other parts of the country. While I'm not sure about the State level, as I didn't spend enough years there or care to be overly informed about state wide politics, I know that the Catholics still have a lot of power in the City of Cleveland and Cuyahoga County (the county Cleveland is in). Cleveland City Hall and the Cuyahoga County Courthouse are both closed on Good Friday. That example doesn't specifically effect politics but the fact that both are closed, shows that the Catholic Church has a great deal of influence on both those bodies of government.

I especially agree with the parts of your comments that many many members of the LDS church don't have a problem with things such as alcohol being served in a restaurant without the Curtain. Most simply have the attitude of "I don't drink but if the table next to me wants to have a beer, wine or cocktail with dinner, that is there business. I think the minority of member have the problem, and I think that the elected officials often times tend to vote much more "conservative" or "restrictive" on things like alcohol. They don't want to be seen as to willing to allow others to live their lives, or willing to allow parents to actually parent, they choose to make laws that allows the state to do the parenting.

I would think that seeing a drink mixed behind the bar at a Chilis is a great opportunity to teach their kids, "alcohol isn't evil and while we(the parents or the LDS Church) don't drink it, those people that do aren't evil they just have a different lifestyle." Does that really seam so difficult to do? I would actually think that making it less taboo would reduce the instances of underage drinking. But that's just my minds logic.

[utenation]

Originally Posted by Comrade

This is the biggest problem with the Utah Legislature. It's very monolithic and does not represent the diversity of the state. 90% of the Utah House is LDS. On its face, there is nothing wrong with that statistic - except that Utah's population is 62% LDS. I have no problem with Mormons being in government - but the lack of religious and cultural diversity is startling, especially when you factor in that many LDS members govern solely on their religious values.

Unlike a great deal of the actual members, the people who are citizens of this state, Mormon legislatures increasingly act as moral crusaders. It's appalling, especially from the perspective of a non-Mormon, because I believe that value goes against what makes this country great - the ability to separate church & state. It also gives one religion far more influence over issues than you rarely see in other states where one faith is predominant (my guess is that the Catholic Church has little sway within the halls of the Massachusetts and Rhode Island capitol buildings).

Now that may sound like a divisive viewpoint, but I want to be clear that this view isn't of the LDS Church or a majority of its practicing members. I feel, on the whole, Utah Mormons buy into the idea of 'live and let live' (there will always be individuals who don't, though, like that Utah County Mom who decided to buy out PacSun because of a t-shirt she deemed sexually offensive) - but our legislature certainly doesn't. That's problematic, especially for a governing body whose influence at the state level impacts Mormons and non-Mormons alike.

I know a great deal of Mormons who are insulted by the way our legislature acts. But no one ever holds 'em accountable for their actions. Look at Senator Chris Buttars, a bigot on racial and sexual orientation issues, who only managed to leave office not because of his bigoted and hateful statements, but because he fell ill and couldn't run for reelection.

We are our own worst enemy. We enable the legislature and then complain when they incompetently run the state.

Considering Salt Lake County is 50% or less LDS and our biggest population metro, the need for change is even greater.

Clearly all views aren't being represented. Like you said, most of these lifer politicians are dug in like a tick on a hounddog.. I vote.. Doesn't matter..

[scottharding]

Originally Posted by Future Mayor

I would think that seeing a drink mixed behind the bar at a Chilis is a great opportunity to teach their kids, "alcohol isn't evil and while we(the parents or the LDS Church) don't drink it, those people that do aren't evil they just have a different lifestyle." Does that really seam so difficult to do? I would actually think that making it less taboo would reduce the instances of underage drinking. But that's just my minds logic.

It would be a great opportunity to teach that, but that's not what they teach.

Sadly, a lot of the impressions outsiders hear about Utah are simply true. In a lot of ways, it's just not normal and not very inviting to an outsider. I think Salt Lake City itself is in a tough spot trying to come into its own, be more mainstream and diverse and trying to become a major global city, but its shackled by the legislature and their overlords. And I agree with the others who have said the legislature really represents the extreme, and not really the majority. There are other states and cities with a similar problem, but I think Utah's State government is about as close to a Theocracy as you can get in this country. And I think that point further confirms what Comrade said about the blatant corruption we have at the state level.

Sorry. It's always a little depressing when the legislature is in session. But then, one glance over at Arizona, and I don't feel so bad anymore. We're not the only ones with shit-for-brains legislatures.

[SLC Projects]

I did post on this matter about a week or so ago.

Originally Posted by SLC Projects

‘Zion Curtain’ law soon may allow written warning instead
Compromise » Lawmaker seeks to allow choice to perhaps end unpopular requirement.


Restaurants that serve alcohol could soon be give the choice of either having a "Zion Curtain" or what could be called a "Zion Warning."

Rep. Kraig Powell, R-Heber City, has been pushing HB285 to get rid of the "Zion Curtain," a 7-foot-2-inch barrier restaurants must have so children can’t see alcoholic beverages being mixed or poured.

He unveiled a compromise Thursday that he says gives that bill a better chance to pass: give restaurants a choice of the Zion Curtain, or allow them to post a notice on all entrances and menus saying, "Notice: This establishment dispenses and serves alcoholic products in public view."

More: http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/politics/57573397-90/restaurants-utah-zion-curtain.html.csp

Or how about the Mormons ( and this is coming from a Mormon ) just get over the fact that people drink alcoholic beverages. If people can't handle seeing these "evil" beverages then just stay home instead of crying and forcing these silly 1800's laws.

Shouldn't have "Zion Curtains" or "Zion Warnings" Makes me wonder just how many development and new business = retails/hotels we missed out on due to these silly "Mormon Laws" Again, I'm Mormon, not hating. But come on Utah.

[ajiuO]

Looks like they didn't save any of the ceiling in that bank building

[Lilljemalm]

Interesting commentary on the state legislature. I've lived in several states over the years and all have similar problems in there legislatures. They tend to be dominated by extremes...both on right and the left. In Utah, people have always complained of it being theocratic, but after being in the south, I have to disagree...there an unwritten qualification to be elected in most districts is to have Rev in front of your name and preachers dictate to their congregation how to vote and who to vote for. When I lived in Seattle, the extreme left so dominated that it successfully destroyed the state's schools to where the UW said 90%of high school grads didn't qualify to enter the university. As for utah, I have heard lds gen authorities express frustration with the legislature for the same reasons you have expressed. They tire of the legislators who think they have to call church headquarters about everything and of those who take extreme positions claiming that it's the righteous thing to do. Many of the lds legislators you have do not represent the views of many of their lds constituents either. It's like other states...enough of my rattling.

[jedikermit]

Originally Posted by Future Mayor

I especially agree with the parts of your comments that many many members of the LDS church don't have a problem with things such as alcohol being served in a restaurant without the Curtain. Most simply have the attitude of "I don't drink but if the table next to me wants to have a beer, wine or cocktail with dinner, that is there business.

I would think that seeing a drink mixed behind the bar at a Chilis is a great opportunity to teach their kids, "alcohol isn't evil and while we(the parents or the LDS Church) don't drink it, those people that do aren't evil they just have a different lifestyle."

That's pretty much the boat I'm in. I'm Mormon. I'm super effing Mormon. I've never even tasted alcohol, although that may be more due to the alcoholism and other addiction issues that ran through my father's generation of family. Anyway, I stated my opinion above, that I do think our "weird" liquor laws have a negative impact on tourism and conventions. I think the Zion Curtain needs to fall, and there should be more permits issued to restaurants, bars, etc. It won't make me start drinking. It won't make my family start drinking. If we want to get drunk, we'll find a way to get drunk. The current restrictions don't stop drinking, don't stop alcoholism, don't prevent DUIs. All they do is build barriers between groups of people that don't need to be there, and prevent visitors from feeling welcome in our state.

And for the record, I hate the stranglehold that the most conservative bloc of the legislature has on our government. When it comes down to it, I'm probably pretty middle of the road politically, but it offends me and embarrasses me to be associated with them in any way--religiously, politically, doughy-white-guyily. Hate it.

[Orlando]

It's crazy what's going on in other cities right now. Seattle has five residential towers over 440' tall under construction, and 20 proposed/in design. And, yet, the Seattle metro population is a little over 3 million. Denver & Phoenix are about that size, but why is Seattle so much more urban? I know this is kind of off topic here, but it's interesting why there's so much more denser development in certain cities. I wish SLC was more urban. I think the reason why SLC is not as urban as other cities, is that there is more of an emphasis on families and single family homes. Whereas, a place like Seattle attracts a lot of young single educated people to work for companies like Amazon. Urban/downtown living really doesn't become affordable once you begin having a family. So, I think that really is the biggest reason why SLC is just not as urban as some other cities like Seattle. I would say that most people in the SLC metro region are more family oriented, and thus, a single-family home is more affordable and accessible. And, watch, even though, I'm an urban enthusiast, once my wife and I start having kids, I, too, will probably not be able to afford much of an urban lifestyle.

Anyways, there's my little rant.

[Plaid Shirts]

Originally Posted by Orlando

It's crazy what's going on in other cities right now. Seattle has five residential towers over 440' tall under construction, and 20 proposed/in design. And, yet, the Seattle metro population is a little over 3 million. Denver & Phoenix are about that size, but why is Seattle so much more urban? I know this is kind of off topic here, but it's interesting why there's so much more denser development in certain cities. I wish SLC was more urban. I think the reason why SLC is not as urban as other cities, is that there is more of an emphasis on families and single family homes. Whereas, a place like Seattle attracts a lot of young single educated people to work for companies like Amazon. Urban/downtown living really doesn't become affordable once you begin having a family. So, I think that really is the biggest reason why SLC is just not as urban as some other cities like Seattle. I would say that most people in the SLC metro region are more family oriented, and thus, a single-family home is more affordable and accessible. And, watch, even though, I'm an urban enthusiast, once my wife and I start having kids, I, too, will probably not be able to afford much of an urban lifestyle.

Anyways, there's my little rant.

Good points. I actually think it has to do more with the geography of the area and city than the emphasis of families. Phoenix, Denver, and even SLC have a geographical layout that allows the suburbs to grow. The downtowns and cities of Seattle, Portland, San Francisco, etc. are blocked by tall hills and/or mountains, and some type of body (or bodies) of water. Obviously with that it makes apartment buildings rise instead of spread out like they do in SLC. Same can be said with office buildings.

[Palladio]

Originally Posted by Plaid Shirts

Good points. I actually think it has to do more with the geography of the area and city than the emphasis of families. Phoenix, Denver, and even SLC have a geographical layout that allows the suburbs to grow. The downtowns and cities of Seattle, Portland, San Francisco, etc. are blocked by tall hills and/or mountains, and some type of body (or bodies) of water. Obviously with that it makes apartment buildings rise instead of spread out like they do in SLC. Same can be said with office buildings.

Although we aren't nearly as geographically constrained as Seattle, Portland or San Francisco, we definitely do have finite grow limits. Denver and Phoenix both have plains and deserts to infinitely spill into. Eventually we are going to fill the majority of the Wasatch front between North Ogden and Payson, and the only place to build then will be either up or across the Wasatch or Oquirrh mountains. And I think that will be too big of a leap for most people to take. (Or so I hope.)

[delts145]

Originally Posted by SLC Projects

I'm over it. . The sooner these buildings are torn down the sooner we start seeing steel rising. What we're getting in it's place is by far better.

I'm with ya Projects. While I would have liked to have seen them keep the coffered ceiling, I am glad to see these buildings go for what will be a huge leasing and user improvement for this extremely important location on Main. I know everyone doesn't agree, and that's the beauty of this forum, but I have always cringed at the exterior execution/remake of that Bennion building. Particularly the window treatment bugged me to no end. Also, just to name one of many problems I had with the remake executions, even from a distance those columns at the top looked like cheap fiberglass. At best, the building was a mediocre remake of a remake of a remake. Even though the new tower is not replacing a parking lot, I am glad the Bennion is gone from that critical corner. If it were any of the many truly unique and historic towers like the Walker, or a true beauty like the Commercial Club and so many others, then of course I would have fought for it's salvation.

Thanks again guys for the great update pics on the demolition. If any of you guys get an opportunity, because you are close to or passing through the areas, please give us some updates on Holladay, Murray, Ronald McDonald House, etc.

Contd...Demolition In Preparation For Performing Arts Center & Tower

Originally Posted by DMTower

They are making quick progress on the demo for the theater. I didn't get a shot of the front of the Bennion Jewelers building, but the whole NW corner is gone.

Pics By DMTower

Originally Posted by gusam26

Pic By Gusam26


.

[utenation]

Originally Posted by Lilljemalm

Interesting commentary on the state legislature. I've lived in several states over the years and all have similar problems in there legislatures. They tend to be dominated by extremes...both on right and the left. In Utah, people have always complained of it being theocratic, but after being in the south, I have to disagree...there an unwritten qualification to be elected in most districts is to have Rev in front of your name and preachers dictate to their congregation how to vote and who to vote for. When I lived in Seattle, the extreme left so dominated that it successfully destroyed the state's schools to where the UW said 90%of high school grads didn't qualify to enter the university. As for utah, I have heard lds gen authorities express frustration with the legislature for the same reasons you have expressed. They tire of the legislators who think they have to call church headquarters about everything and of those who take extreme positions claiming that it's the righteous thing to do. Many of the lds legislators you have do not represent the views of many of their lds constituents either. It's like other states...enough of my rattling.

I don't think anyone is debating that there are issues in other states. That doesn't make what's happening in Utah right. Bottom line, the politics in this state hinder growth and development.

[delts145]

Originally Posted by Lilljemalm

Interesting commentary on the state legislature. I've lived in several states over the years and all have similar problems in there legislatures. They tend to be dominated by extremes...both on right and the left. In Utah, people have always complained of it being theocratic, but after being in the south, I have to disagree...there an unwritten qualification to be elected in most districts is to have Rev in front of your name and preachers dictate to their congregation how to vote and who to vote for. When I lived in Seattle, the extreme left so dominated that it successfully destroyed the state's schools to where the UW said 90%of high school grads didn't qualify to enter the university. As for utah, I have heard lds gen authorities express frustration with the legislature for the same reasons you have expressed. They tire of the legislators who think they have to call church headquarters about everything and of those who take extreme positions claiming that it's the righteous thing to do. Many of the lds legislators you have do not represent the views of many of their lds constituents either. It's like other states...enough of my rattling.

Spot on thoughts Lilljemalm, I've notice pretty much the same. Yesterday, I listened to a long list of complaints from Portlanders and Europeans about the hilarious political short comings of their respective areas. It was very interesting and entertaining.

Originally Posted by utenation

I don't think anyone is debating that there are issues in other states. That doesn't make what's happening in Utah right. Bottom line, the politics in this state hinder growth and development.

I don't disagree with you Utenation, I think the Zion Curtain is especially laughable. However, keep in mind that up against every other metro in the nation, the Wasatch Front is still among the fastest growing. I hope that the growth will continue to be mostly pragmatic people of many faiths and backgrounds.

[utenation]

Originally Posted by delts145

I don't disagree with you Utenation, I think the Zion Curtain is especially laughable. However, keep in mind that up against every other metro in the nation, the Wasatch Front is still among the fastest growing. I hope that the growth will continue to be mostly pragmatic people of many faiths and backgrounds.

I should have been more specific.. I think the development of the culture and night life scene has been really hampered in SLC. In turn that also attracts more business and development to an area. Not to mention, more conventions with different flavors.

While I think City Creek is overall great and I happy the LDS church stepped up and provided spark, life and jobs in a very tough economic time into a rotting part of downtown, it certainly doesn't enhance my lifestyle or make me want to live or go there other than good shopping. Not one quality club/bar/pub in that multi billion dollar investment. Nice flowing rivers though.. LOL.

[Future Mayor]

I find it comical how many people say there isn't a club/bar/nightlife scene in Salt Lake City. For the target demographic that will frequent the clubs/bars, I find there to be quite a large number of bars and clubs in Salt Lake City. The overall demographic of the valley has a great deal to do with it. Yes more bars and clubs would be nice, particularly when conventions come to town, but if there isn't a regular population to support them they aren't just going to open and wait for the conventions to come to town. No we don't have a club district, but other than that we have a fair number of places to crab a drink, hit on members of the opposite (or same, whatever your preference) sex and get your groove on on the dance floor. Yes there could be some additional options and yes some of the laws have hindered that from occurring, but other than that it really is pretty easy to get a drink in Salt Lake City.

Would Main St be a good place to have more bars and clubs? Yes, but it's not like there isn't anything on or a half block off Main now.

[utenation]

Originally Posted by Future Mayor

I find it comical how many people say there isn't a club/bar scene in Salt Lake City. For the target demographic that will frequent the clubs/bars there I find there to be quite a large number of bars and clubs in Salt Lake City. No we don't have a club district, but other than that we have a fair number of places to crab a drink, hit on members of the opposite (or same, whatever your preference) sex and get your groove on on the dance floor.

Compared to what? Provo Utah?


I never said there isn't a scene here, rather hampered. I think Comrade said it best, this state treats getting a liquor license like getting a golden ticket and you must give your first born to get one..

Not very attractive for business owners that aren't part of the Iron curtain.

While I'm not expecting SLC to be Vegas or Miami, it's far closer to Provo Utah than anything with a signifigant night life scene. I also question folks that claim "there are plenty of places to grab a drink, I don't understand the problem". I'm guessing you're a person that doesn't drink or hasn't tried to open a business with these handcuffs.

When is the last time you heard someone from out of town claim SLC had a good scene or even decent? They usually scratch their heads about some of the laws or lack of options. And they crazy thing is, some of the laws have actually improved.

[Future Mayor]

Originally Posted by utenation

Compared to what? Provo Utah?


I never said there isn't a scene here, rather hampered. I think Comrade said it best, this state treats getting a liquor license like getting a golden ticket and you must give your first born to get one..

Not very attractive for business owners that aren't part of the Iron curtain.

While I'm not expecting SLC to be Vegas or Miami, it's far closer to Provo Utah than anything with a signifigant night life scene. I also question folks that claim "there are plenty of places to grab a drink, I don't understand the problem". I'm guessing you're a person that doesn't drink or hasn't tried to open a business with these handcuffs.

When is the last time you heard someone from out of town claim SLC had a good scene or even decent? They usually scratch their heads about some of the laws or lack of options. And they crazy thing is, some of the laws have actually improved.

Every time Outdoor Retailers comes to town actually, and many other times when I'm out at a bar or club to have a drink and I talk to someone from out of town. A large number of them say something along the lines of "I always heard it was nearly impossible to get a drink here, I'm not sure what those people are talking about because there are a lot of good options"

I never said it wasn't difficult to open a business that serves alcohol, with the current regulations, I was simply saying there there are a good number of options around. I'm all for loosening the regulations and letting the market decide how many bars and clubs the city can support. My argument was against the "The scene here is horrible" attitude.