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  #7361  
Old Posted Feb 24, 2014, 8:44 PM
DKNewYork DKNewYork is offline
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Here is a side-by-side of the old version and the newer version designed to address community concerns:



To my eye the newer version isn't a success--it doesn't really look any more harmonious than the older version, and so is just less interesting overall.

Anyway, if I recall correctly, they were still getting criticized by the community, although I don't know how that breaks down by the different parts of the proposal.
I prefer the older design as well. But the Community Board that oversees Chelsea is well-known to dislike any new, tall construction adjacent to the Chelsea Historic District that has too much glass. That was the primary complaint about the Tenth Avenue building. The later version, built with complimentary red brick to match the originals buildings, was deemed more contextual but, to my eye, less interesting.

Not that these visceral reactions of the Community Boards is always bad. Between Chelsea Market and my apartment is Seminary Block, a beautiful grouping of 18th and 19th century buildings housing the General Theological Seminary, the oldest Episcopal seminary in the country. The seminary proposed demolishing a dreadful 1960s addition to campus, replacing it with an attractive co-op apartment building, significantly higher and made mostly of glass and, all in all, not a bad design. The community board killed it. But, in their defense, in at least that one instance, their rejection absolutely resulted in an improved design. The architect's second attempt, which was built a few years ago, is quite beautiful. And quite contemporary despite being mostly red brick. In that case, the board's arbitrary dislike to glass was beneficial. Win some lose some, I suppose.

It should also be pointed out that Chelsea Market, like the High Line, receives much more blame for the changes taking place in Chelsea than they deserve. When I bought my first apartment in 1995, Chelsea was a transitional, quiet, mixed neighborhood. No longer unsafe but still a bit seedy. And on Ninth Avenue, where I live, it was actually quiet, at least by Manhattan standards. Now the streets are packed and noisy into the wee hours of the morning (when the clubs let out) and many old time retailers and residents are being replaced. In the mind of many long time locals, it is quite common to place all the blame, direct all the aggregate frustration, at Chelsea Market and the High Line. The former trumpeted the neighborhood's change, the latter cemented it. I hear that all the time. I don't agree with that line of thinking---it's a bit too black-and-white---but I get where the sentiment comes from. And hence Chelsea Markets would be criticized for giving food away free. And as for the High Line, it has become something of a badge of honor to not use it. It is left for the tourists. West Chelsea residents use the Hudson River Park.

Last edited by DKNewYork; Feb 24, 2014 at 9:18 PM. Reason: missing apostrophe
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  #7362  
Old Posted Feb 24, 2014, 9:26 PM
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Mr. Franks Mr. Franks is offline
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Updates near the airport.
This one is in Moon.


This one is is Findlay. I don't know what it is.

These 3 are also in Moon.


This is where the old Kmart was and where Chevron is looking at building. They just recently tore the building down. I also saw a few guys walking around. It looked they were surveying or something.

This last one is in Robinson across the highway from Giant Eagle. Industrial Scientific is consolidating are their facilities into this one are. The project is quite large.


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  #7363  
Old Posted Feb 24, 2014, 10:03 PM
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Yay suburbia!
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  #7364  
Old Posted Feb 24, 2014, 11:53 PM
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Thanks for the West Hills updates, Mr. Franks. Only a few years ago, that was an extremely sluggish submarket. Now it's booming.
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  #7365  
Old Posted Feb 25, 2014, 12:18 AM
PITairport PITairport is offline
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Originally Posted by Mr. Franks View Post
Updates near the airport.


This last one is in Robinson across the highway from Giant Eagle. Industrial Scientific is consolidating are their facilities into this one are. The project is quite large.


Finally was able to find a rendering of Industrial Scientific's new headquarters/research facility.

Not quite as tall as originally reported (100'), but still a large building.

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  #7366  
Old Posted Feb 25, 2014, 12:34 AM
Gilamonster Gilamonster is offline
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Could Robinson be considered our King of Prussia?
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  #7367  
Old Posted Feb 25, 2014, 12:47 AM
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Finally was able to find a rendering of Industrial Scientific's new headquarters/research facility.

Not quite as tall as originally reported (100'), but still a large building.

What is that terraced green thing in front of the building?
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  #7368  
Old Posted Feb 25, 2014, 3:15 AM
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Could Robinson be considered our King of Prussia?
I thought it already was...
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  #7369  
Old Posted Feb 25, 2014, 1:32 PM
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I just posted new pictures in the Tower at PNC Plaza thread. It's really coming along!

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  #7370  
Old Posted Feb 25, 2014, 3:17 PM
Wiz Khalifa Wiz Khalifa is offline
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To be clear, I don't think Oxford has even hinted that re-using the existing building in the base for a new tower is on the table. In that sense, this possibility is only useful to think about at this point to illustrate that there is no fundamental reason you can't both preserve the historical layer at this level and also build new towers.
My only issue with the new rendering of 350 Fifth ave is its interaction at street level. If you keep the old facade then you preserve the street level interaction that older buildings always excel at, while at the same time building a solid new tower in the CBD on the same block as PNC.

Pittsburgh simply doesn't have the large supply of historic buildings that a place like NYC has, and tearing down even one of the less-ornate ones feels like a big loss. You can't bring them back once they're gone.
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  #7371  
Old Posted Feb 25, 2014, 3:54 PM
BrianTH BrianTH is offline
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Originally Posted by Wiz Khalifa View Post
My only issue with the new rendering of 350 Fifth ave is its interaction at street level. If you keep the old facade then you preserve the street level interaction that older buildings always excel at, while at the same time building a solid new tower in the CBD on the same block as PNC. Pittsburgh simply doesn't have the large supply of historic buildings that a place like NYC has, and tearing down even one of the less-ornate ones feels like a big loss. You can't bring them back once they're gone.
Completely agree all around.

Sadly, PNC Tower already took a big chunk of nice historic facades out of this block, and what they intend to replace it with is pretty much going to 🞵🞵🞵🞵 from a streetscape perspective:



Point Park now wants to trash a bunch of other historic facades on the other side of the street, and if you combine that with Oxford wiping out the Frank & Seder building, this block will have gone from mostly historic with potential for a great streetscape to mostly modern and likely with a crappy streetscape.

Edit: By the way, that PNC Tower rendering shows a building on Forbes that doesn't actually exist (between the one remaining historic building and the Warner Centre). Odd.
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  #7372  
Old Posted Feb 25, 2014, 4:07 PM
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The PNC Tower is replacing what was one of the worst and trashiest blocks Downtown. Admittedly, there were two cool small buildings I was sad to see go at the corner of Forbes and Wood. But most of that block was a blight. Junk buildings.
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  #7373  
Old Posted Feb 25, 2014, 4:12 PM
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SkyPittsburgh SkyPittsburgh is offline
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Originally Posted by Evergrey View Post
The PNC Tower is replacing what was one of the worst and trashiest blocks Downtown. Admittedly, there were two cool small buildings I was sad to see go at the corner of Forbes and Wood. But most of that block was a blight. Junk buildings.
Couldn't agree more, that was a bunch of crappy buildings with no architectural value.(at their present state)

Last edited by SkyPittsburgh; Feb 25, 2014 at 4:15 PM. Reason: I didn't realize that some of the buildings had value, they were just covered up.
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  #7374  
Old Posted Feb 25, 2014, 4:12 PM
BrianTH BrianTH is offline
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Originally Posted by Evergrey View Post
The PNC Tower is replacing what was one of the worst and trashiest blocks Downtown. Admittedly, there were two cool small buildings I was sad to see go at the corner of Forbes and Wood. But most of that block was a blight. Junk buildings.
All three of the buildings along Forbes that PNC Tower wiped out had good to excellent historic facades. Obviously they needed to be renovated and reused, but that is happening all through that area now. In that sense, you just needed a little vision to look past current conditions to what was possible.

Of course if it was a choice between doing PNC Tower or preserving the facades, it would be a tough issue. But in fact that is a false choice, since you can in fact do both.
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  #7375  
Old Posted Feb 25, 2014, 4:19 PM
BrianTH BrianTH is offline
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Originally Posted by SkyPittsburgh View Post
Couldn't agree more, that was a bunch of crappy buildings with no architectural value.
The three buildings on Forbes were all at least good examples of early-20th Century commercial architecture, and a couple of them had entries in the PHLF walking tours. It is very likely they could have been included as contributing buildings in the recently expanded Fourth Avenue National Historic District (along with the buildings Point Park now wants to trash).

It is all water under the bridge at this point since they are gone forever now. But it is sad how little people remember already about what was once there.

Last edited by BrianTH; Feb 25, 2014 at 5:21 PM.
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  #7376  
Old Posted Feb 25, 2014, 4:30 PM
BrianTH BrianTH is offline
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Some old material:

Picture of the facades in question:


Crude rendering I did showing how they could be preserved (with an older incarnation of PNC Tower, although the new one doesn't do much different in that corner):

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  #7377  
Old Posted Feb 25, 2014, 4:41 PM
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Downtown pittsburgh in the past ten years has lost loads of it's historic building stock and even more will most likely be lost soon. It's like downtown pittsburgh is having a second 1960s demolition spree.
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  #7378  
Old Posted Feb 25, 2014, 4:51 PM
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Nonsense.
I did revise my quote to say "in their current state"
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  #7379  
Old Posted Feb 25, 2014, 4:57 PM
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Downtown pittsburgh in the past ten years has lost loads of it's historic building stock and even more will most likely be lost soon. It's like downtown pittsburgh is having a second 1960s demolition spree.
Indeed. I am starting to think in another decade there will be basically no small-scale historic buildings left downtown, save around Market Square, the Cultural District, and maybe the area around Firstside.
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  #7380  
Old Posted Feb 25, 2014, 5:22 PM
BrianTH BrianTH is offline
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Originally Posted by SkyPittsburgh View Post
I did revise my quote to say "in their current state"
And I just edited out the "nonsense," for which I apologize. This is a sore subject for me, but I do realize there are a variety of valid opinions on these subjects.
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