HomeDiagramsDatabaseMapsForum About
     

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Global Projects & Construction > City Compilations


Closed Thread

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
     
     
  #9481  
Old Posted Feb 19, 2014, 10:03 AM
testarossa50 testarossa50 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 836
Quote:
Originally Posted by Libertarian View Post
I lived in Europe more than 10 years, been on trams including articulated and multi-car configurations in every major city, and a 200-pak would only be used in service on really major thoroughfares that ran through very dense populated areas over distances of at least several kilometers, and could run frequently so as to gain maximum ridership. It seems to me that such a thing running on a short one-way loop in small streets with long wait times, expensive tickets, and only sporadic tourist or student use, is a sure recipe for disaster. If they would use these units to serve Emory/CDC by way of Midtown and using the Beltline to the juncture with the existing legacy railbed to Emory, it might make sense, but not in a very small area of downtown. I love trams and wish I could be more positive about the prospects but I think the scale is just overkill. You don't want to emulate the Detroit people mover that runs empty.
The downtown streetcar is the first part of the Beltline transit. Future plans call for the tracks to be extended to the East Beltline and on from there. They specifically chose the optimal rolling stock for the future needs of the Beltline, not for the present needs of the streetcar.

Choosing a ~60 person vehicle with plans to replace it when the Beltline comes to be would be pretty wasteful, no?

Portland is an example: the city uses LRT trains of similar size that have circulator loops downtown where they act as streetcars.

Granted I'm not hugely enthused with this public transit project, but that's the logic as I understand it.
     
     
  #9482  
Old Posted Feb 19, 2014, 12:32 PM
bryantm3 bryantm3 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: East Point
Posts: 837
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ant131531 View Post
I'm trying to figure out what exactly happened to the proposal at 5th and Peachtree...honestly a project I personally look forward to seeing moving forward.
they aren't getting approval from the DRC because they're being very stubborn about putting retail along the ground floor on peachtree street. they are from texas where they don't have requirements like this and the DRC is having a lot of difficulty getting them to understand the requirement. they've proposed changes to the DRC like 5 or 6 times now, each time changing the design in a very miniscule way.
     
     
  #9483  
Old Posted Feb 19, 2014, 12:56 PM
Libertarian's Avatar
Libertarian Libertarian is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 1,430
Quote:
they aren't getting approval from the DRC because they're being very stubborn about putting retail along the ground floor
Maybe the DRC is being stubborn. There's no need for more retail.
     
     
  #9484  
Old Posted Feb 19, 2014, 2:03 PM
Frankster87 Frankster87 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Atlanta - Midtown
Posts: 276
Quote:
Originally Posted by Libertarian View Post
Maybe the DRC is being stubborn. There's no need for more retail.
That is your opinion and you are entitled to that, but not everyone feels the same way. People move to Midtown for a walkable, urban lifestyle. Retail, whether it be shops, restaurants, a bar, or a dentist office, enhances the walkability of the neighborhood.

The part of town this thing is proposed in is very dense and will become far more dense in the near future. The DRC is obviously looking at the bigger picture. As a property owner in the immediate area, I want nothing more than for this site to get developed, but I'm glad they are holding them to a higher standard.
     
     
  #9485  
Old Posted Feb 19, 2014, 2:15 PM
Libertarian's Avatar
Libertarian Libertarian is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 1,430
If the retail sits empty it will not be good.
     
     
  #9486  
Old Posted Feb 19, 2014, 2:17 PM
AtlantaMustang's Avatar
AtlantaMustang AtlantaMustang is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Atlanta
Posts: 805
This is a prime spot on Peachtree. There should definitely be retail spaces included in this project. Good job DRC.
__________________
Raised in Atlanta, based in Shanghai
     
     
  #9487  
Old Posted Feb 19, 2014, 3:03 PM
Terminus's Avatar
Terminus Terminus is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 2,311
Quote:
Originally Posted by AtlantaMustang View Post
This is a prime spot on Peachtree. There should definitely be retail spaces included in this project. Good job DRC.
The zoning does not require retail, but does require a "storefront treatment" intended to allow the long-term convertibility of the space into commercial space. It could be occupied by units, fitness centers, or leasable commercial space.
__________________
How about this for the city's slogan:

"Atlanta - it's getting there."
     
     
  #9488  
Old Posted Feb 19, 2014, 3:13 PM
AtlantaMustang's Avatar
AtlantaMustang AtlantaMustang is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Atlanta
Posts: 805
Quote:
Originally Posted by Terminus View Post
The zoning does not require retail, but does require a "storefront treatment" intended to allow the long-term convertibility of the space into commercial space. It could be occupied by units, fitness centers, or leasable commercial space.
Perfect. Some active use so that doesn't become a dead gap along our main street is all we need. We don't need another block like Dewberry and the Federal reserve. I understand long term Dewberry's will be developed, and I'm sure the DRC will make sure that it fills that gap with active uses.
__________________
Raised in Atlanta, based in Shanghai
     
     
  #9489  
Old Posted Feb 19, 2014, 3:23 PM
briantech's Avatar
briantech briantech is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 608
We absolutely need more retail. It's the only way the Midtown Mile will ever come into existence.
     
     
  #9490  
Old Posted Feb 19, 2014, 4:39 PM
echinatl echinatl is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 699
Quote:
Originally Posted by Libertarian View Post
Maybe the DRC is being stubborn. There's no need for more retail.
You keep saying this however you have never provided any info to back your position.
     
     
  #9491  
Old Posted Feb 19, 2014, 5:36 PM
arjay57 arjay57 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 792
Quote:
Originally Posted by Libertarian View Post
Streetcars in downtown Atlanta are a good idea but need to be about 60-capacity with more frequent runs.
I like that idea. Frequent runs are really important.

If it turns out they are over capacity they can lay on another car.
     
     
  #9492  
Old Posted Feb 19, 2014, 7:10 PM
ATLaffinity ATLaffinity is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 872
Quote:
Originally Posted by echinatl View Post
You keep saying this however you have never provided any info to back your position.
As befits his username.
     
     
  #9493  
Old Posted Feb 19, 2014, 7:31 PM
Dale Dale is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Charlotte
Posts: 4,945
Quote:
Originally Posted by ATLaffinity View Post
As befits his username.
What's that supposed to mean ? A position that favors liberty is bereft in some way ?
     
     
  #9494  
Old Posted Feb 19, 2014, 8:02 PM
Newnan_Eric's Avatar
Newnan_Eric Newnan_Eric is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Newnan, GA
Posts: 244
Quote:
Originally Posted by echinatl View Post
You keep saying this however you have never provided any info to back your position.
I'll chime in on this...

I think you're being a bit harsh in your criticism. Retail on that stretch on Peachtree has struggled. There have been many number of shops that have closed or have been struggling in the area between the Fox and say 7th Street.

That being said, with the addition of several hundred residential units, things could change. Skyhouse South is wrapping up. We have proposals for this lot, the lot accross the street on 6th and Peachtree, and the Condos one block further up. So, maybe retail will be more successfull. Don't forget though that many of those have retail slots to fill too.

For me, it doesn't have to be retail. As long as it has some active use (i.e. Fitness Center, Gallery, etc.), addresses the street-level well, and can be re-puroposed if the market changes - I'm all for it.
     
     
  #9495  
Old Posted Feb 19, 2014, 9:40 PM
Libertarian's Avatar
Libertarian Libertarian is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 1,430
Quote:
As befits his username.
I do have a problem with unfunded mandates, and that's what this requirement is. If an non-elected board wants to require that undue money be spent, there ought to be at least an offset or subsidy. Keep in mind this is private property.
     
     
  #9496  
Old Posted Feb 19, 2014, 10:14 PM
simms3_redux's Avatar
simms3_redux simms3_redux is offline
She needs her space
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 2,454
New tower retail is almost never designed well for most retailers. This is true in most cities. The best retail bays are those that already exist in some of the older buildings, so hopefully they will be preserved through time so that quality retail can go into those. Most towers have awkward bays/features that are designed well for banks or chain restaurants at best, but are typically horrible for soft goods or neighborhood services (who often won't pay freight on asking rents for these spaces anyway). Plus most resi tower developers would prefer banks (higher rent, longer term, better credit) and restaurants (higher rent and longer term often with certain tenant guarantees, but buildouts that pigeonhole the space) than mom and pops and soft goods retailers. They are more focused on the residential portion and there are underwriting conflicts when there is too much complex retail involved (especially when they go to sell...do they parcel out and create an association, more limited pool of buyers, etc).

Therefore, I have more hope for the stretch around 4th-6th and for larger master-planned developments that actually focus on a retail component (98 14th and Tivoli's deal on the old Mandarin site). Getting a critical mass of retail space under one roof in a market like Atlanta, providing sufficient parking for customers, and actually focusing on the design of the retail, layering in flexibility for a wide range of uses and spectrum of tenant types/credit ratings is key. Unfortunately, while I have a lot of faith in Ashkenazi overall given their history of buying/operating high street retail in major markets, I think their proposed Atl project itself is way too big/bold for the market, and I don't have a lot of faith in Tivoli's project taking shape as it is envisioned or in a timeframe that is convenient to all of us who enjoy watching buildings rise.

Thus I like the idea of requiring commercial uses in all of these buildings fronting Peachtree, though I hardly find it necessary on every block or on side streets. Midtown has a master plan, if I recall. There should be designated commercial corridors in that plan, and other corridors that accept a variety of higher density single uses to round out the neighborhood and make the neighborhood more attractive to more developers who don't all have the pocket or expertise to raise capital for and develop mixed-use projects.

http://www.midtownatl.com/_files/docs/blueprint-ii_ex_sum.pdf

Not sure this really gives detail on what I was thinking, but it's a plan and is a start. SF is building out a high-rise neighborhood now between Rincon Hill and the Transbay redevelopment area. There is a lot of structure where certain corners/street are required to have commercial space that fits a specific criteria designed to enforce uses that round out and complement the neighborhood, and there are other sites/streets where no commercial space is necessary, well, because it's not necessary to have retail in these areas! However, by SF standards it will likely always be very sterile (so hopefully Midtown Atlanta keeps all the character it can and sacrifices nothing for lower quality high-rise design!!!!).
     
     
  #9497  
Old Posted Feb 19, 2014, 10:23 PM
TarHeelJ TarHeelJ is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,998
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dale View Post
What's that supposed to mean ? A position that favors liberty is bereft in some way ?
Yes, when it favors liberty at the expense of logic and other neat things.
     
     
  #9498  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2014, 1:16 AM
gttx's Avatar
gttx gttx is offline
Urban Explorer
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: New York, New York
Posts: 2,107
Quote:
Originally Posted by Libertarian View Post
I do have a problem with unfunded mandates, and that's what this requirement is. If an non-elected board wants to require that undue money be spent, there ought to be at least an offset or subsidy. Keep in mind this is private property.
This isn't an "unfunded mandate." Requirements set forth in zoning are reflected in the value of a property. The fact that it's "private" doesn't mean you can do anything you want. It means you can build what you want within the confines of zoning strictures - which are passed into law by elected officials, not "unelected boards."

This is a case of a developer wanting to get around a restriction to improve his bottom line, or at least because he doesn't feel retail leasing is a core competency. They purchased this property knowing full well that active uses on Peachtree were required. Please spare us the pity party.
     
     
  #9499  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2014, 1:25 AM
thebigATL's Avatar
thebigATL thebigATL is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: ATLANTA
Posts: 454
Quote:
Originally Posted by gttx View Post
This isn't an "unfunded mandate." Requirements set forth in zoning are reflected in the value of a property. The fact that it's "private" doesn't mean you can do anything you want. It means you can build what you want within the confines of zoning strictures - which are passed into law by elected officials, not "unelected boards."

This is a case of a developer wanting to get around a restriction to improve his bottom line, or at least because he doesn't feel retail leasing is a core competency. They purchased this property knowing full well that active uses on Peachtree were required. Please spare us the pity party.
You just read my mind everything i was about to say
__________________
BETTER ATLANTA-ATLANTA PEACH ANGLE
     
     
  #9500  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2014, 2:43 AM
Libertarian's Avatar
Libertarian Libertarian is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 1,430
OK, but sometimes a developer's profit motive really is indicative of the highest & best use, if he really thought he could get decent retail rents. Maybe the demand really isn't there in which case the spaces sit vacant as is true within a couple blocks in both directions. Just saying.
     
     
This discussion thread continues

Use the page links to the lower-right to go to the next page for additional posts
 
 
Closed Thread

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Global Projects & Construction > City Compilations
Forum Jump



Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 4:20 AM.

     
SkyscraperPage.com - Privacy Statement - Top

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2026, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.