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  #4501  
Old Posted Feb 15, 2014, 6:25 PM
Jjs5056 Jjs5056 is offline
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Rocksteadyo- don't worry; surfer is nasty (different than negative or crtical as I am routinely) in a majority or posts, and it's starting to take the enjoyment from his rant in the EV thread seemed to steam being deeply unappreciated, having not receive a warm enough welcome, nor enough for breaking news us.... Things that really rarely happen given the amount and diversity of every post.

It's not surprising they landed a client, one I assume is in the tech field, given their swift move through the planning process.
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  #4502  
Old Posted Feb 15, 2014, 6:35 PM
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Rocksteadyo- don't worry; surfer is nasty (different than negative or crtical as I am routinely) in a majority or posts, and it's starting to take the enjoyment from his rant in the EV thread seemed to steam being deeply unappreciated, having not receive a warm enough welcome, nor enough for breaking news us.... Things that really rarely happen given the amount and diversity of every post.

It's not surprising they landed a client, one I assume is in the tech field, given their swift move through the planning process.
Him not divulging who it might be is not mean. Having been part of talks with possible tenants, I know how shaky it can be. In order to get a loan from a bank to secure financing for a commercial endevour, you need a tenant. Not just one that is saying that they are willing to be a part of the project, but one that will actually sign. So it is a difficult process. Tenants change their minds, or some times are straight up poached by other projects that try to offer them more. So giving out a name could lead to someone else approaching them. Sure, it could have been said a bit more tactfully, but surfer is on the right by not giving out any more information.
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  #4503  
Old Posted Feb 15, 2014, 6:58 PM
rocksteady rocksteady is offline
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Originally Posted by Arquitect View Post
Him not divulging who it might be is not mean. Having been part of talks with possible tenants, I know how shaky it can be. In order to get a loan from a bank to secure financing for a commercial endevour, you need a tenant. Not just one that is saying that they are willing to be a part of the project, but one that will actually sign. So it is a difficult process. Tenants change their minds, or some times are straight up poached by other projects that try to offer them more. So giving out a name could lead to someone else approaching them. Sure, it could have been said a bit more tactfully, but surfer is on the right by not giving out any more information.
Arquitect, we all know about secrecy when it comes to these deals, I was just asking for fun, notice the wink. The point JJ and myself are making is that surfer has a nasty way or replying to just about everything around here. No need for a long explanation of why it was "none of our business", we get it.
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  #4504  
Old Posted Feb 16, 2014, 8:38 AM
azsunsurfer azsunsurfer is offline
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My apologies sometimes I forget we are amongst "mixed" company. I'll try to be more sensitive in my responses. Excuse the "nastiness" or hypermasculinism...as far as I am concerned I contributed while being respectful to my sources. Jj I generally don't respond to someone who has nothing to contribute. I have yet to read a coherent post by you.
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  #4505  
Old Posted Feb 16, 2014, 9:13 PM
azsunsurfer azsunsurfer is offline
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Rocksteady I do apologize sincerely to you. It was unwarranted.
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  #4506  
Old Posted Feb 16, 2014, 9:41 PM
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Rocksteady I do apologize sincerely to you. It was unwarranted.
No worries.
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  #4507  
Old Posted Feb 16, 2014, 10:21 PM
MegaBass MegaBass is offline
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APS natural-gas plant in Tempe to be demolished

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The half-century-old natural-gas plant towering over Tempe east of Arizona State University will be demolished to make way for more powerful, compact and efficient generators, utility officials said.

Arizona Public Service Co. plans to spend $600 million to $700 million dismantling the two steam generators at its Ocotillo Power Plant and replacing them with five shorter generators that use less water and fuel to make electricity. The company hopes to complete the project in 2018.

The two steam-driven generators provided nearly one-third of the electricity for APS during hours of peak demand when they opened in 1960. They now provide a fraction of the company’s supply as the metro area has grown.

“We have sort of a love story with Ocotillo,” said Pat Dinkel, APS vice president of resource management. “They served Arizona through a phenomenal growth period. These units were built before we built coal and nuclear and other units. This was the cornerstone of building Arizona for the last 50 years.”

APS plans to begin seeking permits for the project next month, Dinkel said. In addition to OKs from the city and Maricopa County, the project will need approval from the Arizona Corporation Commission and Department of Environmental Quality.

The Ocotillo site, on the northwestern corner of University and McClintock drives, also houses a solar-power plant, switchyard and an area leased for solar testing, all of which will remain amid the upgrades.

The tall generators will be removed after the new ones come online in 2018. The old generators can burn oil or natural gas, although APS almost never uses oil anymore because of the emissions.

APS will maintain two smaller “simple-cycle” generators at Ocotillo that were built in the 1970s and add five larger ones. Simple-cycle gas plants burn natural gas and force hot air through a turbine to make electricity, somewhat akin to giant jet engines.

The new units use a fraction of the water required to make electricity with the steam generators, Dinkel said.

The new units not only will generate more electricity, which APS needs to replace expiring contracts to buy power from other utilities, but also will allow the company to respond faster to increases in power demand.

The two older units run about 10 percent of the year. They are troublesome because replacement parts are difficult to find, and the units take six hours or more to start up. That means APS must fire up the generators at 2 a.m. in the winter to meet peak electricity demand at 8 a.m. on cold mornings. They have to start before noon in the summer to meet peak demand at dusk.

The new units will be able start up in about 51/2 minutes and be at full power in 10 minutes.

That is important not only to respond when other power plants experience interruptions, but also to match the variable output of solar and other renewable-energy sources being placed on the grid.

APS officials said that they have examined other proposals to meet the company’s increasing power demands and that increasing the capacity at Ocotillo is the best option.

Salt River Project faced a similar situation in the early 2000s when it negotiated to expand the Santan Generating Station in Gilbert.

Nearby residents bitterly fought SRP’s $500 million plan to increase the capacity of the plant from 300 megawatts to more than 1,000. The Ocotillo expansion is smaller and, unlike Santan, will make the plant less visible once complete.

Both projects, however, involve weighing the benefits of building power plants near the people who use them or building them in rural areas with miles of transmission lines and substations to get the power to the city.

Building power plants in or near the metro area also avoids the electricity that is lost in long transmission lines.

Increasing power demand

APS generally relies on power plants outside metro Phoenix, but utility officials said the power grid is much more reliable with some generation inside the urban area that they own and can control without calling upon merchant power plants to purchase electricity when they need it most.

“We need some (generation) close to where people consume power,” Dinkel said. “Ocotillo is the only generation we have on the east side of the Valley. We’ve studied this with the SRP system. We are joined at the hip with them.”

APS is not seeing customer demand grow as fast as during the early 2000s, but it also must replace some contracts for power from other utilities that expire in coming years.

The Ocotillo addition will not be as visible as the current structure, but the newer generators won’t be much quieter than the existing facility, Dinkel said. People nearby may hear them less because they will be to the west of the property, farther from the property boundary than the current generators, he said.

APS officials said they have talked with ASU and city officials and soon will begin notifying the public about their plans.

“The city of Tempe is excited about this, as they should be, with the increased construction jobs there,” Dinkel said.

Tempe Councilman Kolby Granville, who was recently briefed on the project, said he will reserve final judgment on the new plant until he sees the completed plans. But he sees few drawbacks to the early proposal.

“My understanding is it’s more power with less pollution and smaller stacks that look less ugly. I really don’t see any downside,” he said.

Though Gilbert residents fought SRP’s Santan project, Granville believes the Tempe plant will be embraced because it is expected to be less of an eyesore.

“My hunch is this is going to go as smooth as these things can,” he said. “The thing that they’re removing looks like something out of a post-apocalyptic ‘Mad Max’ movie. And the thing that they are adding looks like a modern power plant.”

Granville does not believe APS will garner any city incentives for the project.

The completed plant is expected to generate increased property taxes for the city and state because of higher valuation.

The Ocotillo plant pays about $600,000 in property taxes annually, which will increase to $8 million after five years, raising revenue for the city and state, according to APS.

But Granville said revenue is not the only factor the council considers when deciding whether to support projects that will drastically change the face of the city.

“You weigh impact on the surrounding community,” he said. “You weigh impact to the city in the way of increased revenue and the quality of life. ... Those are all things that are not 12 months of construction jobs. Those are things that affect people for 30, 50 years into the future.”

Community outreach will be a critical component to gaining the public’s trust and support, he said.

Natural gas a key fuel

While APS is continuing to add solar power and other renewable energy to its supply, natural gas will remain an important power source, Dinkel said.

“We have a better balanced portfolio than most utilities with nuclear, gas, coal, renewables and energy efficiency,” Dinkel said. “Balance comes at a price. You are never optimal for one resource at a moment. You manage your risk over time.”

Tim James, a senior sustainability scientist at the ASU School of Sustainability and a professor at ASU’s W.P. Carey School of Business, said that APS, SRP and other utilities are turning to natural gas because it is safe.

“It’s just cheaper, basically,” he said. “There is not much regulatory risk with natural gas.”

The cost is important because any expense the utility experiences is passed on to customers through their electric bills.

James compared building gas plants to the controversy over the Navajo Generating Station, a coal-fired plant near Page, which is facing more than $1 billion in upgrades to comply with U.S. Environmental Protection Agency anti-pollution requirements. Natural-gas plants are nowhere near as risky, James said.

“It just makes the most sense,” he said.

Utilities can continue to add renewable power such as solar, but solar still has the major shortcoming of not being able to store electricity for use when the sun goes down, James said. Solar-thermal power plants such as the Solana Generating Station near Gila Bend, which produces power after dark by storing heat in molten salt, are too expensive to rely on for all of APS’ energy, he said.

“Solana is a clever facility but more expensive than traditional methods of generation would be,” he said.

He acknowledged that residents complained about the expansion of the Santan plant.

“But you don’t hear anything about it now, do you?” he said. “There are tons of (gas plants) all over the Valley.”

APS has another gas plant in the West Valley, and SRP has another in Tempe.

Dinkel said APS continues to monitor concerns over natural-gas production and the controversy over hydraulic fracturing, or fracking, the intentional breaking up of the rock around gas wells to produce more fuel.

“There is risk with every single technology,” Dinkel said. “There is no purely, totally safe technology. Clean-coal technologies are not ready. We don’t want to be building new coal. Nuclear is not ready. We are not ready to build new nuclear from a cost perspective and permitting. Solar is important to our portfolio but can’t do everything. Gas has to be the filler right now.”

Even if natural-gas prices have shown short-term volatility, projections are for the fuel to see stable prices in the long term, he said. APS also has a fuel-hedging program to limit the company’s exposure to price fluctuations.

“There is no economic way of working around gas anytime soon,” he said.
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  #4508  
Old Posted Feb 17, 2014, 12:12 AM
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I had always hoped that that power plant would be dismantled in some years and APS would vacate the property leaving a massive redevelopment site, but it looks that site will be a power plant forever. Oh well. I always liked the stacks anyways. Would have loved to get a tour of it.
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  #4509  
Old Posted Feb 17, 2014, 3:17 AM
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Originally Posted by combusean View Post
I had always hoped that that power plant would be dismantled in some years and APS would vacate the property leaving a massive redevelopment site, but it looks that site will be a power plant forever. Oh well. I always liked the stacks anyways. Would have loved to get a tour of it.
I got to tour it once, and it was really interesting. Being up in the catwalks at the top is vertigo inducing.
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  #4510  
Old Posted Feb 17, 2014, 3:23 AM
Spitfiredude Spitfiredude is offline
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Those plants are god ugly ...
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  #4511  
Old Posted Feb 17, 2014, 3:23 PM
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I had always hoped that that power plant would be dismantled in some years and APS would vacate the property leaving a massive redevelopment site, but it looks that site will be a power plant forever. Oh well.
I share your feeling on this one. I was so hoping when I first scanned the top of that article that it was going to say that APS was leaving town lol. More than the power plant though- I wish there was some way they could underground those hideous high-tension lines that run through Papago Park, along Town Lake- then across the lake to downtown Tempe. I know it will never happen but dear god they are SO distracting and ugly. But I guess having electricity is a nice feature as well lol.
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  #4512  
Old Posted Feb 17, 2014, 4:07 PM
rocksteady rocksteady is offline
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Originally Posted by TempeSilverFox View Post
I share your feeling on this one. I was so hoping when I first scanned the top of that article that it was going to say that APS was leaving town lol. More than the power plant though- I wish there was some way they could underground those hideous high-tension lines that run through Papago Park, along Town Lake- then across the lake to downtown Tempe. I know it will never happen but dear god they are SO distracting and ugly. But I guess having electricity is a nice feature as well lol.
I had the exact same thoughts and hopes. That land is prime for development and burying those power lines would not only clean up the view but likely allow for more height on the north shore of the lake. Awww, one can dream.
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  #4513  
Old Posted Feb 17, 2014, 4:17 PM
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I had the exact same thoughts and hopes. That land is prime for development and burying those power lines would not only clean up the view but likely allow for more height on the north shore of the lake. Awww, one can dream.
I think everyone, including the city of Tempe, would love to see APS leave. Unfortunately, APS will never do it. Between the two power companies, I really feel like APS is the most regressive. What bugs me about the Ocotillo plant, is that slowly they have started to dismantle their solar power infrastructure (it was mostly an experimental facility testing new technologies), and just keeping the larger plant. So not only are we going to keep a huge part of the city undeveloped, but also reduce what little positive assets it showed.
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  #4514  
Old Posted Feb 17, 2014, 4:28 PM
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I think everyone, including the city of Tempe, would love to see APS leave. Unfortunately, APS will never do it. Between the two power companies, I really feel like APS is the most regressive. What bugs me about the Ocotillo plant, is that slowly they have started to dismantle their solar power infrastructure (it was mostly an experimental facility testing new technologies), and just keeping the larger plant. So not only are we going to keep a huge part of the city undeveloped, but also reduce what little positive assets it showed.
I noticed that the other day when I drove by and wondered what happened to them. Then I read this article and they made it sound like solar was still a big part of it so I assumed maybe they were relocated on the site out of view. Sad they got ride of them.
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  #4515  
Old Posted Feb 17, 2014, 4:46 PM
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I noticed that the other day when I drove by and wondered what happened to them. Then I read this article and they made it sound like solar was still a big part of it so I assumed maybe they were relocated on the site out of view. Sad they got ride of them.
Most of the solar technology that they had on the site was pretty outdated; it was installed several decades ago when the company was actually really looking at how viable going into the solar market could be. So it makes sense that they would get rid of them, but what does make me sad is that they aren't replacing them with newer ones, especially since we have started to see huge advances in the solar energy field.

APS' solar emphasis seems to me like a marketing ploy. They really tout the little they have done, but they are falling way behind other companies such as nrg (who just opened a huge solar installation in the CA & NV border). The whole thing about trying to limit the growth of roof top solar this past year is a prime example.

Fortunately, Tempe isn't really loosing much solar power generation, since ASU has done some really incredible work in that regards.
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  #4516  
Old Posted Feb 17, 2014, 5:31 PM
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Most of the solar technology that they had on the site was pretty outdated; it was installed several decades ago when the company was actually really looking at how viable going into the solar market could be. So it makes sense that they would get rid of them, but what does make me sad is that they aren't replacing them with newer ones, especially since we have started to see huge advances in the solar energy field.

APS' solar emphasis seems to me like a marketing ploy. They really tout the little they have done, but they are falling way behind other companies such as nrg (who just opened a huge solar installation in the CA & NV border). The whole thing about trying to limit the growth of roof top solar this past year is a prime example.

Fortunately, Tempe isn't really loosing much solar power generation, since ASU has done some really incredible work in that regards.
Do you know if ASU's solar installations are providing power to the overall grid, or just powering ASU facilities? And if it is just ASU facilities, is there any surplus that goes back to the grid? I'm not sure how many units they have now and how much power they are providing.
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  #4517  
Old Posted Feb 17, 2014, 5:45 PM
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Do you know if ASU's solar installations are providing power to the overall grid, or just powering ASU facilities? And if it is just ASU facilities, is there any surplus that goes back to the grid? I'm not sure how many units they have now and how much power they are providing.
The way the systems have been set up, it is a bit confusing. With the first few rooftop projects, ASU made the investment and set up, and would use the power. Then, they started a deal to sell the power back to APS. Now it is really tricky, since ASU basically leases the space for different companies to install the solar panels, and then they sell it to APS. What I am not sure of is if ASU gets the power first, and then sell any excess, or if they buy it back from APS at a discount. So technically speaking, some of that power does go back into the grid. But even combining all of the solar installations in campus, we are looking right now at ASU generating about 40% of their peak-power needs through that source. So, at their peak, ASU still consumes more than they generate (Still quite impressive for such a huge campus). I don't think ASU will ever be able to rely 100% on solar, but maybe with their continued research into bio-fuels such as algae, they could get to the point where they could be near self-sustaining.
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  #4518  
Old Posted Feb 17, 2014, 6:01 PM
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The way the systems have been set up, it is a bit confusing. With the first few rooftop projects, ASU made the investment and set up, and would use the power. Then, they started a deal to sell the power back to APS. Now it is really tricky, since ASU basically leases the space for different companies to install the solar panels, and then they sell it to APS. What I am not sure of is if ASU gets the power first, and then sell any excess, or if they buy it back from APS at a discount. So technically speaking, some of that power does go back into the grid. But even combining all of the solar installations in campus, we are looking right now at ASU generating about 40% of their peak-power needs through that source. So, at their peak, ASU still consumes more than they generate (Still quite impressive for such a huge campus). I don't think ASU will ever be able to rely 100% on solar, but maybe with their continued research into bio-fuels such as algae, they could get to the point where they could be near self-sustaining.
Thanks for clarifying, you explained it clear enough for me. And it is still quite an impressive chunk of power they get from solar. I wonder if that's the highest in the nation for such a major university?
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  #4519  
Old Posted Feb 17, 2014, 6:26 PM
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Thanks for clarifying, you explained it clear enough for me. And it is still quite an impressive chunk of power they get from solar. I wonder if that's the highest in the nation for such a major university?
I do believe that they produce more power than any other US university, I'm not sure about how that would translate into % of power used compared to power generated, since a much smaller school could have a higher % without generating as much.

If you are interested in seeing more about ASU's power generation in respect to their usage, they have this awesome website that tracks all of that.

http://cm.asu.edu/#
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  #4520  
Old Posted Feb 17, 2014, 6:54 PM
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I do believe that they produce more power than any other US university, I'm not sure about how that would translate into % of power used compared to power generated, since a much smaller school could have a higher % without generating as much.

If you are interested in seeing more about ASU's power generation in respect to their usage, they have this awesome website that tracks all of that.

http://cm.asu.edu/#
Great website! Thank you! Very cool
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