PHILADELPHIA | Highrise Development Thread IX

[Philly2Queens]

Originally Posted by Pennsgrant

I have read that current hotel operators have protested new hotel construction in Center City due to oversupply and soft demand. They complain that they cannot consistently fill rooms . Now Im sure on occasions the relative lack of hotel supply in Center City is a problem(large conventions- holidays-4th of July) etc etc ..

Exactly. Remember the letter to City Council by the hotel operators opposed to the W's subsidies?

There is definitely some inconsistencies in the two pieces of information we have, ie Philly being the 9th most visited metro vs the inability to construct hotels in CC without large public subsidies.

Maybe the devil is in the details...Since the 9th most visited statistic relates to metro areas, it doesn't necessarily mean Center City. It would also encompass the 4 other PA counties, the Lancaster area, as well as parts of South Jersey. So, we can still have a robust regional tourism market but suffer from a lack of demand in Center City.

[ILovePhilly]

Originally Posted by Philly2Queens

Exactly. Remember the letter to City Council by the hotel operators opposed to the W's subsidies?

There is definitely some inconsistencies in the two pieces of information we have, ie Philly being the 9th most visited metro vs the inability to construct hotels in CC without large public subsidies.

Maybe the devil is in the details...Since the 9th most visited statistic relates to metro areas, it doesn't necessarily mean Center City. It would also encompass the 4 other PA counties, the Lancaster area, as well as parts of South Jersey. So, we can still have a robust regional tourism market but suffer from a lack of demand in Center City.

The Forbes bit also said that 12 million Philadelphia visitors were day trippers. Remember the "Philly's better when you sleep over" campaign? I think we probably have a higher ratio of day trippers to total tourists than other cities due to our exceedingly convenient location on the northeast corridor (back door brag) but that does mean our hotels don't see the same benefit from the same number of tourists as other cities.

[McBane]

Interesting to see on that list that the W on 15th and Chestnut has a higher chance of being built than SLS/Dranoff. I would think the opposite. Dranoff has a proven history as an established developer who's gotten progressively bolder over the years. 15th and Chestnut has been an empty lot for years, despite repeated attempts to develop it. That withstanding, I like to think that the current proposal is a viable one, but I'm still in that "I'll believe it when I see it" attitude, for that particular parcel. Does anyone know what the latest status is on that one?

[Londonee]

Originally Posted by Pennsgrant

I have read that current hotel operators have protested new hotel construction in Center City due to oversupply and soft demand. They complain that they cannot consistently fill rooms . Now Im sure on occasions the relative lack of hotel supply in Center City is a problem(large conventions- holidays-4th of July) etc etc ..

Ok, now take 3 seconds, use some critical thinking about that statement...do u think the current hotel operators prefer more options for consumers or less? The reality is, the nice hotels are booking out nightly and the shoddy ones are struggling. The marketplace can be a 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵.

[Londonee]

Originally Posted by Philly2Queens

Exactly. Remember the letter to City Council by the hotel operators opposed to the W's subsidies?

There is definitely some inconsistencies in the two pieces of information we have, ie Philly being the 9th most visited metro vs the inability to construct hotels in CC without large public subsidies.

Maybe the devil is in the details...Since the 9th most visited statistic relates to metro areas, it doesn't necessarily mean Center City. It would also encompass the 4 other PA counties, the Lancaster area, as well as parts of South Jersey. So, we can still have a robust regional tourism market but suffer from a lack of demand in Center City.

Center City = 2 square miles.
Philly Metro = hundreds of square miles

These hotel numbers and data must always be discussed using the proper lens. Is it metro, or CC? The 12K rooms in CC is a laughably small number relatively speaking.

[PhiLaw]

Originally Posted by Londonee

Ok, now take 3 seconds, use some critical thinking about that statement...do u think the current hotel operators prefer more options for consumers or less? The reality is, the nice hotels are booking out nightly and the shoddy ones are struggling. The marketplace can be a 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵.

What he said. Ive said this before. Be very worried when there is an inter-entity consortium complaining about oversupply. Be even more worried when this consortium has ties to city officials. Build the rooms. If your hotel cant compete with the new hotels, you better improve or else. Others will absorb the demand you captured. It's called allocative efficiency.

[PhiLaw]

Does anybody know how many floors are left to go on the Evo? Trying to get an idea of the building's impact from various angles.

[relnahe]

Originally Posted by Philly2Queens

Exactly. Remember the letter to City Council by the hotel operators opposed to the W's subsidies?

There is definitely some inconsistencies in the two pieces of information we have, ie Philly being the 9th most visited metro vs the inability to construct hotels in CC without large public subsidies.

Maybe the devil is in the details...Since the 9th most visited statistic relates to metro areas, it doesn't necessarily mean Center City. It would also encompass the 4 other PA counties, the Lancaster area, as well as parts of South Jersey. So, we can still have a robust regional tourism market but suffer from a lack of demand in Center City.

Wait but some how Boston's doesn't include Cape Cod or Marta's Vineyard or other big destinations in eastern Mass? It is very simple, Philadelphia is grossly underserved by hotels in the core of the city. I blame the very high building costs for being the culprit.

[Philly2Queens]

Originally Posted by Londonee

Ok, now take 3 seconds, use some critical thinking about that statement...do u think the current hotel operators prefer more options for consumers or less? The reality is, the nice hotels are booking out nightly and the shoddy ones are struggling. The marketplace can be a 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵.

Maybe. But it still doesn't explain why the W needed so many subsidies to get built. Both the Element and W are high end brands, in a nice location, so it really makes me wonder why so much public money was needed. And it also makes me wonder about the viability of another one (SLS).

I do agree with your statement about the current hotel operators. They have an obvious vested interest in blocking competition.

I wonder with someone with inside connections can help explain why it was so hard to get financing for the W? I happen to agree that CC could likely use more hotel space, especially with the expanded convention center and the Comcast behemoth.

[Philly Fan]

Hasn't the expanded convention center had problems booking larger conventions because of the lack of a sufficient number of hotel rooms, among other reasons (e.g., work-rules and costs of labor unions, etc.)? My impression is that the lack of a sufficient number of convenient (e.g., Center City) hotel rooms has been an impediment to securing the mega-conventions, or two or more simultaneous smaller conventions.

[allovertown]

Originally Posted by Philly2Queens

Maybe. But it still doesn't explain why the W needed so many subsidies to get built. Both the Element and W are high end brands, in a nice location, so it really makes me wonder why so much public money was needed. And it also makes me wonder about the viability of another one (SLS).

Needed? Just because they got those subsidies doesn't mean they needed them. Whether they needed them or not wouldn't you think they would take subsidies if they were available to them?

[GarCastle]

To keep the momentum here going. :^)

Here are some mockups of what Penn "may" build (it is not yet approved by the Board so for Entertainment Purposes only at this point) at 3600 Civic Center Boulevard, between the Colket building of CHOP and the existing parking garage. This would fill the hole in the ground that is there now. It is the smaller lot on the left of the two. This is an old picture, especially since CHOP's ambulatory building is nicely filling out the right-most empty lot:



The back 2/3's of the lot will be a 1,500 spot parking garage with the front 1/3 developed afterwards. While I did not hear a timeline specifically, the garage is needed ASAP if Penn is to take down the Penn Tower garage. Diagram below:



This is a simpler mock-up of what it could look like:



Here is one apparent version:



And here is another apparent option. This one has the CHOP ambulatory in the shot:


Cheers,
G.

[MikeNigh]

penn is cool as hell.

[Philly Fan]

Originally Posted by GarCastle

To keep the momentum here going. :^)

Here are some mockups of what Penn "may" build (it is not yet approved by the Board so for Entertainment Purposes only at this point) at 3600 Civic Center Boulevard, between the Colket building of CHOP and the existing parking garage.

I wonder if this will come up for at least partial approval at the Trustees winter meeting scheduled for February 27-28, and that's why they're making presentations to employees now.

Just a thought.

[Flyers2001]

Originally Posted by StatenIslander237

What's incredible to me is how the Philadelphia skyline is physically expanding in every direction like a balloon. FMC/Cira and the U City towers is pulling it west, Temple and the 16th & Vine tower are pulling it north, SLS is pulling it south, and the CITC is pulling it up into the sky. Truly staggering. If Philadelphia didn't already have a worthy national and international profile compared to the other great American cities, it will really shoot for the stars now.

All we need now is a little pop of towers along the Delaware to beef it up to the east.

The Renaissance project would help, it has bounced between 4-5 towers with decent height for the river.

[summersm343]

Thanks GarCastle!! Those plans look great! Either tower would be a welcome addition to Philly!... but I'll be praying for the bigger one

[Philly Fan]

Originally Posted by summersm343

Thanks GarCastle!! Those plans look great! Either tower would be a welcome addition to Philly!... but I'll be praying for the bigger one

I'm with you--my vote goes to the bigger one.

[aro1419]

Originally Posted by Philly2Queens

Maybe. But it still doesn't explain why the W needed so many subsidies to get built. Both the Element and W are high end brands, in a nice location, so it really makes me wonder why so much public money was needed. And it also makes me wonder about the viability of another one (SLS).

The subsidies have more to do with the high cost to build in Philly than the demand for the hotels themselves, as is the case for most new construction projects in the city. So yes, I feel that the new hotel is being built because of demand and not so much for the sake of just building something with someone else's money.

[Guipos08]

The taller rendering of the Penn office building looks to be about 30-32 floors. Talk about expanding the skyline...

[Insoluble]

I'm inclined to agree that the current hotel operators are not a good source to go by, and it does seem as though Center City is under served by hotel rooms. We have had a good 1,000 new rooms come online in Center City in the past few years and it hasn't been a disaster. The only thing that nags at me is that Four Seasons is planning to reduce their room count when they move to CITC. Anyone know what that is about?