PITTSBURGH | Development Rundown II

[photoLith]

Originally Posted by East Edge

love that Old Stone Tavern in the West End Photo Lith. I hope it comes to fruition. I always thought it would be a cool project to renovate and bring back to its historical look. Any estimates on the cost to renovate? Any interested developers? Do they have parking?

It will be pretty pricy, probably 600k, there's parking across the street. We just started the process looking for a developer or someone interested. Since it's the oldest commercial building in the city it could also become a colonial era museum or early pittsburgh museum, maybe an offshoot of the fort Pitt museum. The building overall is in decent shape and has only been abandoned for about 4 years. The inside will have to be pretty much gutted except for any of the original walls left. Luckily there's no visible leaks in the roof but the back half of the building, the 1816 addition has partially collapsed.

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by DKNewYork

Just curious: What would be the rent of a studio or one bedroom downtown at RiverVue or The Pennsylvanian?

So here is one source for RiverVue:

http://www.downtownpittsburgh.com/live/view/river-vue-apartments

Studio: $1,050 - $1,350
1 Bedroom: $1,235 - $1,975
2 Bedroom: $1,895 - $2,659

Not exactly City Center DC-type money, but not bad either.

Lot 24 may also be useful to look at--this is a complete new-build, not a renovation, and I think it got very little if any sort of public subsidy:

http://www.apartmentfinder.com/Pennsylvania/Pittsburgh-Apartments/Lot-24-Apartments

I recall reading The Brix at 26 was targeting an average of around $2/sqft, which seems consistent with the prices here (and also about what Lot 24 is doing):

http://www.brixat26.com/pittsburgh/the-brix-at-26/floorplans/

So something like that $2/sqft would seem to define "market-rate" for higher-end new apartments these days, and it is likely heading up.

[Austinlee]

Originally Posted by BrianTH

More details on the possible Oxford project in the PTC:

http://www.post-gazette.com/business/201...building-in-Oakland/stories/201402120043

Unfortunately, apparently it may be as short as three stories.

As long as it doesn't damage Oakland's greatest architectural treasure: That Eureka Bank branch on Forbes.

[Private Dick]

Originally Posted by BrianTH

Not to keep beating the same drum, but this is again part of why I think the solution is to just increase the number of units in the plan, so the percentage is what the Penguins want but the actual number of affordable units is what affordable housing advocates want. That approach means you also get more market-rate units to cross-subsidize the additional affordable units. And in fact with it likely being the case that the marginal cost per additional unit is fairly low, moving in this direction should actually help decrease the average cross-subsidy component of rent for each market-rate unit.

The big assumption here is that you could in fact market more units without significant rent erosion. But on that point, it is worth keeping in mind that the Penguins' residential plan for the site dates way back to the mid-2000s. Since then, trends have been extremely positive for new residential units in good locations, and in fact various other developers have switched to offering more residential units in their plans (as in BKSQ 2.0, Eastside III, and so on).

So I think it is a VERY good bet that the numbers can work, or at least work a lot better, with this strategy.

I've come to agree with this line of thinking. It's not ideal for me, but it's close enough, and realistic for the project.

Originally Posted by Topher51

The median household income in metro DC in 2011 was $88,491.

http://www.deptofnumbers.com/income/district-of-columbia/washington/

60% of the median income in metro DC is $53,095, which is $2,000 more than the national mediam income. To call those units "affordable housing" is laughable.

In DC, that is affordable housing... laughable or not.

[Austinlee]

Originally Posted by Private Dick

I've come to agree with this line of thinking. It's not ideal for me, but it's close enough, and realistic for the project.



In DC, that is affordable housing... laughable or not.

I just saw a couple days ago the rents at the "5th Lofts" (Renovated old brick school building in uptown) 5thlofts.com

Studio Lofts $750-$850
1 Bedroom Lofts $1,100-$1,500
2 Bedroom Lofts w/Mezzanine $1,400-$2,000
2 Bedroom Lofts $1,500-$2,000
2-3 Bedroom Lofts w/Mezzanine $2,000-$2,950


I mean 2-3 grand, for UPTOWN?!? I was a little surprised.

[photoLith]

3 grand in the ghetto lol. Oh well at least that will help kick start redevelopment in uptown hopefully.

[Austinlee]

Originally Posted by photoLith

3 grand in the ghetto lol. Oh well at least that will help kick start redevelopment in uptown hopefully.

Yeah but think of all those glorious UPTOWN GIRLS.

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by Austinlee

I'm very happy. I have been excited for years to see the full, 100% built-out version of the Pitt Tech Center. I know I am often in the majority here, but I love modern "suburban style" corporate and research buildings. I just do. It's so cool that there are already several very unique buildings located there and when I heard a year or two back that they have plans to build approx. 1 million more sq ft of space, I was so pumped.

And regardless of what you feel about the merits of the plan, it is what it is, and it would be nice to see it completed.

To give my two cents--my main complaint is the lack of a public riverfront trail. I don't necessarily love it otherwise, but I do see the niche it fills, and here was a decent place to serve that niche since it is completely disconnected from any other established neighborhood.

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by Austinlee

I mean 2-3 grand, for UPTOWN?!? I was a little surprised.

People taking these apartments either don't know or don't care much about Pittsburgh's neighborhood reputations. Which then becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

[Private Dick]

Originally Posted by Austinlee

I just saw a couple days ago the rents at the "5th Lofts" (Renovated old brick school building in uptown) 5thlofts.com

Studio Lofts $750-$850
1 Bedroom Lofts $1,100-$1,500
2 Bedroom Lofts w/Mezzanine $1,400-$2,000
2 Bedroom Lofts $1,500-$2,000
2-3 Bedroom Lofts w/Mezzanine $2,000-$2,950


I mean 2-3 grand, for UPTOWN?!? I was a little surprised.

3 large is surprising. For Pittsburgh in general, but more surprising for the location -- it still sucks, and will for a while without some miraculous all-out rapid development blitz in the neighborhood. I would consider buying a unit there... as a solid investment... but renting there for 3 grand a month? No thanks.

Of course, one would be in walking distance to the Ace's & Deuce's... so that's a plus. Or is it Kings & Queens? Are either of those still open?

[Private Dick]

Originally Posted by BrianTH

People taking these apartments either don't know or don't care much about Pittsburgh's neighborhood reputations. Which then becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

You can get a real good feel for the neighborhood's "reputation" after about only 15 minutes though.

[DKNewYork]

Originally Posted by BrianTH

People taking these apartments either don't know or don't care much about Pittsburgh's neighborhood reputations. Which then becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Don't discount that an area like Uptown might actually be appealing to a transplant. Late last year while waiting for a delayed LGA-Pittsburgh flight, I met a guy who was being relocated to Pittsburgh and had decided on an apartment at the old Fifth Avenue High School. Turns out he did look around a bit but he really liked the neighborhood. His NY place was in Long Island City, which has some of the same vibe as Uptown. Can't confirm that he still likes it though.

[Private Dick]

Potential is certainly there in Uptown -- no doubt about it. But I wouldn't say there is much of a vibe at all... yet. LIC is unquestionably more "gentrified" and vibrant than Uptown though. Uptown is pretty barren really... easy place to pick up a schwag 20 piece though.

I just seems silly to me to pay that high of a rent in an area like that though for apartments that were not built at that price level for Pittsburgh... even if money isn't a problem. The neighborhood is still crappy, with zero amenities, and which doesn't have that "hip" location factor a la the South Side of decades ago, Lawrenceville more recently, or now East Liberty/East End areas... but I'm sure that will change for the better. Still, you pay a very high rent in a neighborhood that will not be very attractive for at least a few years... right around the time you move out basically. Buying... yeah, different story.

[BrianTH]

I actually don't have a problem seeing the appeal of the 5th Avenue School Lofts. It would be a super short commute to Downtown or Oakland, and the building itself was very nicely done.

I think it is fair to note there isn't much to do in the immediate area, but that isn't necessarily a top concern for everyone, and of course there are buses going by extremely frequently which will take you to Downtown or Oakland in a handful of minutes.

[themaguffin]

I mentioned recently (probably a page or 2 back) that Uptown has great potential and game changer could do wonders. Could be a great urban environment...

[Private Dick]

Originally Posted by BrianTH

I actually don't have a problem seeing the appeal of the 5th Avenue School Lofts. It would be a super short commute to Downtown or Oakland, and the building itself was very nicely done.

I think it is fair to note there isn't much to do in the immediate area, but that isn't necessarily a top concern for everyone, and of course there are buses going by extremely frequently which will take you to Downtown or Oakland in a handful of minutes.

Yeah, I get that... the proximity. But that's it. For $3 grand? Not for me, but maybe they're getting what they're asking.

And the apartments are pretty nice, but I would not say "very nicely done"... at least not in the $3K/month price range. Finish materials are mid-level, very small bathrooms with no windows and only decent fixtures, carpeting is standard apartment carpet, building amenities basically nonexistent for rents in this range (no outdoor area, no pool).

If the surrounding area were in a bit better shape/a bit further along in revitalization, I can definitely see the appeal, and could see the justification for rent at that level. Like the Cork Factory... though I think people are crazy for paying up to $5 grand for rent there, I get it when you consider what you are getting in return.

[Austinlee]

Uptown WILL be an amazing, hip neighborhood in our lifetimes. There is no question in mind. The Hill will be too, probably following Uptown's renewal.

EDIT: I also want to add Wilkinsburg to that list.

[Private Dick]

Originally Posted by Austinlee

Uptown WILL be an amazing, hip neighborhood in our lifetimes. There is no question in mind. The Hill will be too, probably following Uptown's renewal.

EDIT: I also want to add Wilkinsburg to that list.

Yeah, I agree. WILL.

But why RENT in an area that WILL be amazing, hip, etc.?

[Austinlee]

Originally Posted by Private Dick

Yeah, I agree. WILL.

But why RENT in an area that WILL be amazing, hip, etc.?

Honestly, probably because that school building is basically THE crown jewel of that neighborhood; Extremely well built; I hear they did an amazing renovation. So I guess you're paying for the quality. I've been in some other local loft conversions and some are quite shit. That is definitely a disappointment.

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by Private Dick

And the apartments are pretty nice, but I would not say "very nicely done"... at least not in the $3K/month price range. Finish materials are mid-level, very small bathrooms with no windows and only decent fixtures, carpeting is standard apartment carpet, building amenities basically nonexistent for rents in this range (no outdoor area, no pool).

The building does have secure parking, a fitness room, and a laundry.

But probably the biggest thing to keep in mind is the apartments are in fact big. That $2950/month place is apparently 2000 sqft, so that is less than $1.50/sqft. Except for the studios, most of the other apartments appear to be priced around that $/sqft or even less.

So you are in fact paying a substantial premium to be in Lot 24, the Brix at 26, and so on, rather than this building--about 1/3 more, in fact, once you adjust for the size of the apartments.