Halifax Stadium Discussion

[q12]

CFL could be a community affair in Halifax, commissioner says
SELENA ROSS STAFF REPORTER
Published February 10, 2014 - 3:19pm
Last Updated February 10, 2014 - 6:06pm

Halifax Mayor Mike Savage’s lunch Monday was sponsored by football bigwigs, but it’s small-scale support that he wants.

Scotiabank, a corporate partner of the Canadian Football League, held the lunch for local business leaders who might like the idea of a local pro team.

Read the Story Here: http://thechronicleherald.ca/novascotia/...nity-affair-in-halifax-commissioner-says

Sounds like today was good start. Cohon basically wrote off Moncton again:

"I think the challenge in Moncton, it's a bit of a smaller community with a smaller business community," said Cohon.

Apparently there were both local business represented at the meeting today along with National Corporations with representation in Halifax. Mike Savage was on CBC and sounded encouraged about new public-private partnerships that could bring a stadium. I think Shannon Park or another location that interests private developers to invest are going to end up being the best locations.

[RyeJay]

Originally Posted by q12

Sounds like today was good start. Cohon basically wrote off Moncton again:

"I think the challenge in Moncton, it's a bit of a smaller community with a smaller business community," said Cohon.

It has already been stated that the CFL is not interested in establishing a team there. I hope Cohon won't feel the need to keep repeating himself, one of those needs being from the press. In how many ways will he have to tell Moncton "No"?

Originally Posted by q12

Apparently there were both local business represented at the meeting today along with National Corporations with representation in Halifax. Mike Savage was on CBC and sounded encouraged about new public-private partnerships that could bring a stadium. I think Shannon Park or another location that interests private developers to invest are going to end up being the best locations.

Another location, indeed.

[scooby074]

Originally Posted by RyeJay

Another location, indeed.

Lots of sites were investigated for the stadium last time around. SP was and is the frontrunner.

"previous studies, which found that Shannon Park in Dartmouth would be the best site for a stadium."

http://thechronicleherald.ca/novascotia/...nity-affair-in-halifax-commissioner-says

I agree 100% with that assessment.

[RyeJay]

Originally Posted by scooby074

Lots of sites were investigated for the stadium last time around. SP was and is the frontrunner.

Then let's move this thread to the Suburbs section.

Shannon Park isn't on the peninsula, nor in downtown Dartmouth. This is a suburban project. People interested in reading about Halifax's suburban stadium may go read about it there. The Halifax Peninsula & Downtown Dartmouth section is for urban, central developments.

[Wishblade]

Originally Posted by RyeJay

Then let's move this thread to the Suburbs section.

Shannon Park isn't on the peninsula, nor in downtown Dartmouth. This is a suburban project. People interested in reading about Halifax's suburban stadium may go read about it there. The Halifax Peninsula & Downtown Dartmouth section is for urban, central developments.

The official boundary separating the urban core and suburbs in Dartmouth is the circumferential highway, which Shannon Park lies within. I always assumed this thread followed the same guidelines

[Haligonian88]

Originally Posted by RyeJay

Then let's move this thread to the Suburbs section.

Shannon Park isn't on the peninsula, nor in downtown Dartmouth. This is a suburban project. People interested in reading about Halifax's suburban stadium may go read about it there. The Halifax Peninsula & Downtown Dartmouth section is for urban, central developments.

I sure hope this is sarcasm, otherwise it sounds pretty whiny. Regardless, Shannon Park is by no means suburban as Wishblade points out.

Let's wait until there is a plan to build a stadium before complaining about it's location...

[scooby074]

Originally Posted by Wishblade

The official boundary separating the urban core and suburbs in Dartmouth is the circumferential highway, which Shannon Park lies within. I always assumed this thread followed the same guidelines

Thats what I always understood, the Circ was the boundary.

Anyways.. who cares really? Its pretty darn hard to argue that SP isn't urban.

Now if they wanted to put the stadium out by the airport, the equivalent of Kanata in the Ottawa example, then that would be a suburban stadium (and a REAL bad idea).

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by scooby074

Now if they wanted to put the stadium out by the airport, the equivalent of Kanata in the Ottawa example, then that would be a suburban stadium (and a REAL bad idea).

Yes, a very bad idea. I've been to Scotiabank Place for a Senators game before. It was nearly a 25-30 minute drive from downtown, and following the game it was pure gridlock leaving the parking lot to get back on the highway. I swear it took at least 45-50 minutes to exit the parking and drive back to my hotel!

[Hali87]

If anything, I think this thread would make the most sense in the infrastructure section. Having it in the Peninsula/DTD section always seemed a bit presumptuous to me.

I'd consider Shannon Park more of an underdeveloped part of the core than truly suburban (unless you consider Dartmouth as a whole to be suburban).

I think Shannon Park might make the most sense (and in many ways, ONLY makes sense) if the stadium is part of a much larger development as seen in Ottawa. Building a ferry terminal and buying ferries to serve a stadium only a handful of days each year doesn't really make sense, but if there were to be a major population base established there, the ferries would make a ton of sense year-round.

I'm not opposed to having a stadium on the Peninsula but I also don't think that every major investment needs to/should happen on the Peninsula - otherwise the rest of the city/metro will never become more livable than it is now.

[Empire]

If a stadium were to be built in Shannon Park with private developer involvement then I could see some major density bonusing to the tune of 40
storey residential. Perhaps a Kings Wharf north?

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Yes, a very bad idea. I've been to Scotiabank Place for a Senators game before. It was nearly a 25-30 minute drive from downtown, and following the game it was pure gridlock leaving the parking lot to get back on the highway. I swear it took at least 45-50 minutes to exit the parking and drive back to my hotel!

This is the problem with any stadium or arena when it is surrounded by a few large parking areas of thousands of parking spots.

A couple of years ago, I parked close to Ralph Wilson Stadium in one of its large parking lots and it took me almost 2 hours to get out. On the other hand, the Rogers Centre and the old Ivor Wyne Stadium had numerous smaller parking areas and many more roads and exits to handle the traffic so it was much easier to get out after the sporting event was over. This is why the Commons area can handle large crowds, it has many alternative areas to park and plenty of road capacity to handle the traffic.

The advantage of private involvement in Shannon Park area is somewhat lessened by the fact that it will just be paying for services that are already available on the Peninsula (parking, roads, restaurants, public transit ...).

I think it is possible that if a stadium is built in Shannon Park that concerts will continue to be held on the Commons and Citadel Hill because that is where people want to go. If I had the choice of going to a concert on the Citadel Hill or Shannon Park then I would certainly prefer the Citadel Hill.

[counterfactual]

Originally Posted by scooby074

Lots of sites were investigated for the stadium last time around. SP was and is the frontrunner.

"previous studies, which found that Shannon Park in Dartmouth would be the best site for a stadium."

http://thechronicleherald.ca/novascotia/...nity-affair-in-halifax-commissioner-says

I agree 100% with that assessment.

I don't trust any previous study done by HRM.

Those would have been done under the auspicious of the hapless, clueless, mayor Kelly, with aiding and abetting from previous hapless, clueless Councils, and a complicit HRM staff.

So, not trusting these clowns, I decided to go look for the report and I've found it. Here's the BS study they're talking about:

https://www.halifax.ca/council/agendasc/documents/111206ca1011iii.pdf

And here is the report to council drawing on it:

https://www.halifax.ca/council/agendasc/documents/111206ca1011ii.pdf

These are not serious documents.

Particularly funny is the methodology for (1) choosing sites for consideration and (2) the "matrix" for rating the best. They have this weird "risk" factoring, wherein they significantly downgraded the actual scoring of a site based on risks that are not demonstrated or proven.

Guess what "sites" were considered? All were either suburban or quite truly out in the middle of nowhere.

- Shannon Park
- Burnside Park (ZZZzzzzz....)
- TWO Dartmouth Crossing locations?! (double the chances!)
- Aerotech Business Park (are you kidding me? 50km outside HFX, FFS)
- Summit Rock (are you kidding me #2 further out than Aerotech)
- Lake Loon Golf Center (Yes, let's build on HRM's very outer boundary... on a lake)

They considered only two sites on the Peninsula:

- St. Mary's
- Cogswell

Both actually scored decently, but were basically downgraded to last place by the "risk" analysis, thinking the sites are too small.

Shannon Park does well. But then, the other top sites? both at Dartmouth Crossing. Hahahahaahahaha

Here's an excerpt from the evaluation for Dartmouth Crossing, you can see how subjective the process is: "...its location just outside of HRM regional centre was seen as a small weakness".

"small" weakness?

This is not a serious study. You can see in the Staff Report, where it assumes that the cost of the stadium for each site would be exactly the same, which is a joke because some of those sites will require tens of millions of infrastructure build up to work, not to mention transit, etc. In fact, the process looked rigged for Dartmouth Crossing, like the way that garbage Bloomfield RFP looked jigged for provincial success.

[ns_kid]

Originally Posted by counterfactual

They considered only two sites on the Peninsula:

- St. Mary's
- Cogswell

Both actually scored decently, but were basically downgraded to last place by the "risk" analysis, thinking the sites are too small.

Both sites clearly are too small, unless you're talking about a contained, civic-funded stadium alone, something that is unlikely to be built in our lifetimes. If a private-public sector model (similar to Ottawa's Lansdowne or Nova Centre) is the preferred approach, you need a much bigger area, with easy access. Whatever your view of HRM's planning competence, I don't see any other site within peninsular Halifax or the Dartmouth core that can match Shannon.

Just out of curiosity I superimposed a same-scale rendering of the Lansdowne site, including greenspace and adjacent roadways, on the Shannon Park lands. It fits almost perfectly within the triangle formed by Princess Maragaret Blvd./Iroquois Dr., Nootka Avenue and the CN right of way. (No, of course I'm not suggesting HRM would somehow replicate Ottawa's project; just that a project of that scale could be accommodated on the Shannon lands.)

[scooby074]

What about SP functioning as a multipurpose area?

Not only as Stadium grounds for maybe 15-20 days a year, but as a transit hub all year round.

Having it as a transit hub means any improved infrastructure for the stadium like improved highway/bridge access, water (ferry) access and possibly an LRT terminal wouldnt go to waste. Im thinking as a transfer station and park and ride.

It might make it an easier sell and keep cars off the peninsula?

Would it work? Has it ever been done? Seems like a waste to have all that infrastructure and land sitting unused most of the time.

[RyeJay]

Originally Posted by ns_kid

Just out of curiosity I superimposed a same-scale rendering of the Lansdowne site...

Thank you for this graphic, but in my opinion, Ottawa is a horrible example to follow.

We do not need a site as large as Lansdowne because, on the peninsula, many more sites close to the stadium will redevelop, creating much more residential and commercial space, all while building on the city's walkability. Developing Shannon Park would mean starting from scratch, on abandoned land, located next to no density.
No density = no redevelopment potential.

Put a stadium on the peninsula and the density of the entire peninsula creates business opportunities for investors. It's amazing, in 2014, knowing what we know about sustainable citybuilding, knowing how difficult it is to create jobs in today's economy -- that we are seemingly fine with putting something as expensive as a stadium in a location that isn't the best location.

From what I've observed the members of this forum who've contributed to this discussion, for the most part, have said they believe somewhere on the peninsula is the most sensible. Let's see if people in HRM will get to voice their opinions during another round of consultations.

For the right price, I'd expect most or all of those car dealerships north of Young Street to be very willing to sell.

[fenwick16]

I post this idea in all seriousness. Parks Canada is seeking proposals to increase the number of visitors to Citadel Hill by developing a master plan of new uses - http://www.theprovince.com/travel/Skatin...oost+visitors+Halifax/9394262/story.html.

Citadel Hill has been used for decades to host concerts on the Garrison Grounds side of the hill. What if a new use for that side of the hill was an amphitheater/stadium built with the following ancient Epidaurus stadium as the inspiration:

(source: http://www.visitgreece.gr/en/culture/tourist_guides_take_us_around_ancient_theatres )


The Citadel Hill amphitheatre side (which would be built so as not to disturb the Fortress) could be built with lots of landscaping and all amenities (such as washrooms) could be hidden under the hill. It could be built to accommodate 12,000 - 15,000 people on the side of the Citadel overlooking the Garrison Grounds. This is the area shown in Bing Maps - http://binged.it/1f52zJd

If Bell road was realigned then the city could build a more traditional, modern seating stand on its property to complete a stadium that could be used for football, soccer and concerts. The city side could also have luxury box suites.

Such a stadium would undoubtedly be the most unique stadium in North America and possibly the world. (How many amphitheatres are built into the side of a historic hill?)

But I am probably just dreaming. In any case, it would be interesting to do a amphitheatre/stadium model and submit it to Parks Canada and HRM to see what their reaction would be. I think Parks Canada owes tax money to the city because of a recent tax dispute so maybe they could contribute the Garrison Grounds to pay the tax bill? http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/citadel-hill-tax-dispute-going-to-federal-panel-1.1318480

[counterfactual]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

I post this idea in all seriousness. Parks Canada is seeking proposals to increase the number of visitors to Citadel Hill by developing a master plan of new uses - http://www.theprovince.com/travel/Skatin...oost+visitors+Halifax/9394262/story.html.

Citadel Hill has been used for decades to host concerts on the Garrison Grounds side of the hill. What if a new use for that side of the hill was an amphitheater/stadium built with the following ancient Epidaurus stadium as the inspiration:

(source: http://www.visitgreece.gr/en/culture/tourist_guides_take_us_around_ancient_theatres )


The Citadel Hill amphitheatre side (which would be built so as not to disturb the Fortress) could be built with lots of landscaping and all amenities (such as washrooms) could be hidden under the hill. It could be built to accommodate 12,000 - 15,000 people on the side of the Citadel overlooking the Garrison Grounds. This is the area shown in Bing Maps - http://binged.it/1f52zJd

If Bell road was realigned then the city could build a more traditional, modern seating stand on its property to complete a stadium that could be used for football, soccer and concerts. The city side could also have luxury box suites.

Such a stadium would undoubtedly be the most unique stadium in North America and possibly the world. (How many amphitheatres are built into the side of a historic hill?)

But I am probably just dreaming. In any case, it would be interesting to do a amphitheatre/stadium model and submit it to Parks Canada and HRM to see what their reaction would be. I think Parks Canada owes tax money to the city because of a recent tax dispute so maybe they could contribute the Garrison Grounds to pay the tax bill? http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/citadel-hill-tax-dispute-going-to-federal-panel-1.1318480

ha! We seriously need some innovative thinking about Citadel Hill. Place has turned into a bit of a mausoleum, and Parks Canada has really let it go.

BTW, that Greek theatre... an incredible structure. Reminds me of the great amphitheatre in Ephesus, Turkey, also an incredible structure:

[Keith P.]

That is a really interesting idea. I agree that the Citadel is more of a problem for the downtown than an asset these days. If there is enough space to do something like this, it would be incredibly cool.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by counterfactual

ha! We seriously need some innovative thinking about Citadel Hill. Place has turned into a bit of a mausoleum, and Parks Canada has really let it go.

BTW, that photo.. is that the amphitheatre in Ephesus, Turkey? It's an incredible structure.

It is in Epidaurus Greece - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epidaurus and was built in the 4th century BC and then expanded by the Romans to seat 15,000. I have never been there but it is the sort of amphitheatre/stadium that I would love to see in Halifax (I am not really one for a modern, iconic stadium).

[Nouvellecosse]

It would be one hell of a fight with the heritage groups though. No doubt they would argue that anything other than open green space on the slopes of the hill would ruin its historic character.

And perhaps it would, but there are more important things in the world than preserving a historic vibe at the cost of all else.