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  #41  
Old Posted Feb 9, 2014, 8:30 PM
Urbanarchit Urbanarchit is offline
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Wow, way to make assumptions, Fatty McButterpants! I have not met J.OT13, but they definitely do not come off that way if you have read anything they have said on this forum. I don't think it's fair for you to make such this sort of judgement about someone, especially a person you've never met before. (I realize some people may call me a hypocrite because of something judgemental I said several weeks ago in another thread, but I would say that was a matter of misunderstanding).

I disagree with you completely. I think, presently, Alexandra and the Prince of Wales Bridges are the nicest bridges we have in Ottawa, although they could use some sprucing up. Alexandra seems a bit odd with the division between lanes and pedestrians, but I think it's a beautiful old bridge that was an important, even integral, part to Ottawa's history, especially as a lumber town with locomotives crossing it daily. It's also an interesting example of engineering from that time period. It's also interesting visually with the mirrored peaks and descents (I'm sorry, but my architectural/ engineering jargon is it a very embarrassing minimum), the latticework and trusses. It may not be attractive to all, but to me at least I think it's great. Other bridges that cross the Canal or Ottawa River should be replaced with something better, but not these two.

I don't think they are cheapened by the existence of other, similar bridges in the region or in Ottawa parts of the world. I believe that their present location makes them quite unique and attractive, one that I would argue contributes them to being highly identifiable, provided you know about Ottawa's existence. Despite the cars zooming by and the need to replace the wooden boards, walking along it is actually kind of enjoyable.


Alexandra Bridge by Shel DeF on Flickr

While I say this, I would like to see 30, 40+ storey buildings all over Ottawa with all sorts of different designs, but which utilizing contemporary urbanism theories and practices. I would like to see modern public transit and alternatives to private vehicles, ultimately reducing driving to less than a quarter like Copenhagen. I would like to preserve many heritage buildings, but I wouldn't be opposed to sacrificing a few for good development (I'm looking towards Lowertown and Centretown, where there are quite a few buildings that could be replaced with something better). I'm also angered by the idiocy of many people who think they can preserve a culture and way-of-life by prohibiting any development, especially anything over 2-3 stories, in the area.

It would not be surprising if J.OT13 and many others in this forum feel the same way I do, albeit a lot less intensely. I think it was unfair how you jumped to conclusions about J.OT13 because he wants to keep a bridge or two (or three, if we include the Laurier Bridge, although the actual road and sidewalk could use some modern sprucing up). I hope you do not interpret what I am saying as an attack on you or anger towards you, but I do think your characterization and reason for it to be unjust and not too kind. If you don't like something, that's fine, but other people will disagree and it's quite possible that, despite some possible reasonable points of yours, that they are correct.

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Originally Posted by Fatty McButterpants View Post
Oh lord, here we go.

The Alexandra bridge is cheap steel relic. Bridges like these are a dime a dozen in remote areas of Northern Ontario. They are usually rusted out and used by trains. I don't think they quite as unique as you think. Suffice to say you are probably an old fashioned type of guy who thinks good enough is good enough. The kind that thinks a downton core comprised of a sea of 18 storey stubbies is just fine.

The point is the location of the Alexandra. You are right about the other bridges, but that's not the point. The Alexandra is situated in a PRIME location for an iconic bridge. It is the perfect backdrop for the Parliament Buildings, and vice versa. And you think an old iron train bridge lives up to the potential of that location???

Sometimes I think we should rename Ottawa to Fuddyduddytown

Last edited by Urbanarchit; Feb 9, 2014 at 9:29 PM.
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  #42  
Old Posted Feb 10, 2014, 2:26 AM
Capital Shaun Capital Shaun is offline
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A monument at Lebreton Flats should celebrate Canada's forestry and lumber industry.
That's a good idea. I'm not aware of any local monuments that celebrate Canada's or Ottawa lumber history.
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  #43  
Old Posted Feb 10, 2014, 4:31 PM
Fatty McButterpants Fatty McButterpants is offline
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Originally Posted by defishel View Post
I think it was unfair how you jumped to conclusions about J.OT13 because he wants to keep a bridge or two (or three, if we include the Laurier Bridge, although the actual road and sidewalk could use some modern sprucing up). I hope you do not interpret what I am saying as an attack on you or anger towards you, but I do think your characterization and reason for it to be unjust and not too kind. If you don't like something, that's fine, but other people will disagree and it's quite possible that, despite some possible reasonable points of yours, that they are correct.
Ditto. No offence intended. No offence taken.

Heritage is a polarizing issue. Some people like old historic strutures, some like contemporary modern ones. I happen to like both. In the case of this bridge, I see what "could be" as being more impressive than what "has been". And once again I would say that LOCATION is the key to this. The Alexandra bridge doesn't offend me. I'd have no problem with it a little bit up or down the river. And I certainly don't believe for a second that the Alexandra bridge is going anywhere. But this is a thread about visions. A fantasy thread. I personally think it's sad that some of the ideas put forth in this "fantasy" thread talk about sidewalks. It's even more sad that there are people who can't possibly fathom something bold that would singlehandedly and instantly change the landscape of the city.

It just seems to me that historical enthusiasts believe heritage is a trump card. There is a certain arrogance in that, and it makes your criticism of my post a little ironic. Looking back should not always trump looking forward. And people who's vision includes a balance of new and old should have a say too.
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  #44  
Old Posted Feb 10, 2014, 5:38 PM
Urbanarchit Urbanarchit is offline
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Originally Posted by Kitchissippi View Post
With regards to Ottawa as a capital, I would start with the street scape opposite Parliament Hill. While Parliament Hill looks impressive looking from the city side, the city looks absolutely horrible from Parliament Hill. You can see blank faces of buildings (the ugliest being the building at the northeast corner of Sparks and O'Connor) and the bland skyline is made worse by the uncoordinated scales of the buildings. Much like a garden that is in dire need of a good pruning, some courageous decisions would have to be made as to what buildings should be kept and what should be removed to make room for new ones that are more appropriate and pleasing to the eye.

I would let the old American Embassy go — sure it is a nice old building but its Imperial style just does not fit in. Maybe it could be taken apart and moved somewhere else In its place, I would put a building that has the same mass and presence as the Langevin Block (not a copy but a contemporary version, much like the way the East and West Blocks are not mirror images). This would complete the "urban room" around the Parliament Hill lawn. I would give this building a public function, maybe a place where people actually learn about democracy (funny that aside from the guided tours of Parliament, there really is no place in the capital that discusses Canadian politics in depth), or at least be a place where the federal government engages the public through press releases or committee hearings. London's Portcullis House is an example of how a modern building can fit along with old gothic buildings, and function as such.
I thought this might interest you: Wellington Street comparison

I'd like to see trees returned and some buildings to fill in the current gaps.
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  #45  
Old Posted Feb 10, 2014, 5:48 PM
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^ I like the idea of the performance venue outside in Gatineau in front of Parliament Hill... very cool. Also like the idea of a revamped modern bridge downtown.

Part 2 of my recommendations or things I would like to see in Ottawa:

1) How about a large water fountain? I would put it either in the Ottawa River, maybe close to the Chaudieres Island or at Dow's Lake.. Kind of like the one in Switzerland:

Or better yet how about a slew of fountains where we could have a fountain/musical show? Kind of like a mix between the fountain show at the Bellagio in Vegas and Mosaika in Ottawa.

OR if we can't do it directly IN water, we could have just a large fountain with a musical light show anywhere, like the dancing fountain shows in Barcelona. Think of something like this in the middle of Lebreton Flats with cobblestone circular "piazza" around the fountain (to allow space for people to see the shows) and a roundabout. There could be cool shops and condos around there... Imagine how this would be a tourist and resident draw and imagine owning a condo 12 or 25 floors up with a few on that square...


2) This next one is more of a great branding idea I thought of... You know how NYC has these "iconic" yellow cabs in the city wherever you go? How about branding and having our own version of these but red? All taxi's in the nation's capital could be red and white and feature a white swirl and maple leaf, therefore becoming a cool concept and making it different than anywhere else. You know you are in Ottawa or in CANADA when you see these. Like I said, imagine the below but with a white swirl and maple leaf on the sides (kind of like the Otrain or LRT designs)


3) I know it was already mentioned a couple of posts back but I wanted to say it again; making something out of Union Station. Obviously the top choice would be a transit station but since that's not happening for LRT and 99.99% not happening for regular rail then maybe we could have it as either a grand library or a regular events centre? I went inside once for the Ottawa Doors Open and couldn't belive this gem and how beautiful it was inside, looks very much like Grand Central Station in NYC.. People need to be able to access it more often, not just government functions.


4) If Pimisi is so culturally important for Native Americans and such why not create a sort of "Native American village" @ Pimisi/Lebreton? It would have huts, a cultural education centre, some sort of old general store, a restaurant erving their types of dishes, probably some sort of gift shop, maybe some canoes, totem poles and some demonstrations maybe on how they used to tan animal skin or carve the canoes and totem poles or something... It would be both educational, interesting for visitors AND it would make the native americans very happy I think... It would also be cool because imagine the juxtaposition of the "village" with the high rises of downtown in the background...


Enough for now... Any ideas/thoughts on the above??
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  #46  
Old Posted Feb 10, 2014, 5:56 PM
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Originally Posted by defishel View Post
I thought this might interest you: Wellington Street comparison

I'd like to see trees returned and some buildings to fill in the current gaps.
There is no doubt about it, the loss of the American Elms has had a dramatic impact on certain parts of the city. I have heard that there is now a resistent strain but whether it is safe to replant, I am not sure. There is no replacement for American Elms and nothing else will achieve the effect that you see in the 1940 photo. I am old enough to remember Wellington Street looking much like this. You also saw avenues of elms on Island Park and Clemow Avenue. Those avenues were dramatic and had a cooling in the heat of summer.

I have always found Wellington Street rather sterile. Somehow, we need to introduce more life.
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  #47  
Old Posted Feb 10, 2014, 5:58 PM
Urbanarchit Urbanarchit is offline
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Originally Posted by Fatty McButterpants View Post
Ditto. No offence intended. No offence taken.

Heritage is a polarizing issue. Some people like old historic strutures, some like contemporary modern ones. I happen to like both. In the case of this bridge, I see what "could be" as being more impressive than what "has been". And once again I would say that LOCATION is the key to this. The Alexandra bridge doesn't offend me. I'd have no problem with it a little bit up or down the river. And I certainly don't believe for a second that the Alexandra bridge is going anywhere. But this is a thread about visions. A fantasy thread. I personally think it's sad that some of the ideas put forth in this "fantasy" thread talk about sidewalks. It's even more sad that there are people who can't possibly fathom something bold that would singlehandedly and instantly change the landscape of the city.

It just seems to me that historical enthusiasts believe heritage is a trump card. There is a certain arrogance in that, and it makes your criticism of my post a little ironic. Looking back should not always trump looking forward. And people who's vision includes a balance of new and old should have a say too.
There are some people who always view heritage as superior, not always understanding the forces that created those buildings and cities of the past (e.g. Paris' 6-floor height buildings), but then there are those who are perfectly fine demolishing everything, like what used to be done a few decades ago, to construct something new. I fall in between and say there's quite a lot of stuff that should be preserved, as they provided character, contribute to identity, all of which makes a city look distinct from other cities around the world.

A current concern for many, even in architecture and urbanism, is this trend of designing buildings that could easily be placed anywhere in the world, that doesn't scream the name of one actual city. That our cities are becoming to uniform. So, heritage preservation is one way we can maintain our distinct identity. That means keeping what we have that works and looks good, and replacing other things with something new, to enhance the experience. I wouldn't want to see Centretown demolished and replaced with all new towers, but I think some sprouting up here and there on empty properties or fixing up old buildings on main streets with some modern additions is ideal.

However, but judged J.OT13 as someone who's completely opposed to change or development because he wants to see a bridge, one that you see no value in, preserved for posterity. That is quite the fallacy, there.

For me, there's a lot of "could-bes" in Ottawa, and that's definitely the point in having this thread. But I feel the bridge actually kind of complements our view of Parliament and Major Hill (the view with Connaught Building, Château Laurier), along with Confederation and Justice Buildings and the Supreme Court. It ties into this heritage for Ottawa (you can argue for Canada, but I don't care so much about how other Canadians identify with this city/ I can't imagine how people can think of themselves as an Ottawan). As much as I understand that this bridge is in a prominent position, I still think it's quite fitting and picturesque, something I've noticed when photographing it and other views that include it. There are other places where a new bridge would fit well, for example at Chaudière.

I disagree with what you say this thread is about. I think it, much like Architecture for Ottawa that I started, it's about sharing what we would like to see happen in Ottawa. We can think of some fantastical or whimsical thing to put or do in Ottawa, but an important thing is that it be realistic. We could say we'd love to see a 150-storey building sprout up somewhere, but we all know that would never happen and might not even be ideal. 40-50 stories, yes.

You underestimate the importance of sidewalks. Sidewalks are one of the most important paths to being able to experience the city and architecture, to move around the city. A good pedestrian path (sidewalk and trees, etc.) creates a good urban experience that can get people out of cars, living in more urban areas, shop more, spend more time outside and interacting with people, and overall falling in love with the city. A sidewalk is not mundane, as it is quite powerful, I think. Beside, we can do all sorts of interesting things with them, including bulb-outs, widened spaces for public gathering, heating them (like Japan's heated sidewalks).

But in response to your last paragraph, I don't think you quite get what I'm saying, and I think that is where you end up criticizing someone: because you misunderstand them. It seems more like you're not someone who wants a balance between preservation and development, but rather you want to see development without preservation. What should be preserved? You can argue that this bridge shouldn't be preserved, as well as many other buildings. But truthfully, what does deserve preservation if not something as significant as this bridge?
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  #48  
Old Posted Feb 10, 2014, 5:58 PM
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There is a reason why you don't see a lot of fountains in Ottawa. The harsh climate makes them difficult to maintain.
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  #49  
Old Posted Feb 10, 2014, 6:03 PM
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There is a reason why you don't see a lot of fountains in Ottawa. The harsh climate makes them difficult to maintain.
I don't see why, especially for the Barcelona one, for example. It's obviously not a winter thing, but as long as it is emptied before temperature drops and it freezes I don't see how it would be more maintenance than a concrete/stone statue or something..?
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  #50  
Old Posted Feb 10, 2014, 6:06 PM
Urbanarchit Urbanarchit is offline
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There is no doubt about it, the loss of the American Elms has had a dramatic impact on certain parts of the city. I have heard that there is now a resistent strain but whether it is safe to replant, I am not sure. There is no replacement for American Elms and nothing else will achieve the effect that you see in the 1940 photo. I am old enough to remember Wellington Street looking much like this. You also saw avenues of elms on Island Park and Clemow Avenue. Those avenues were dramatic and had a cooling in the heat of summer.

I have always found Wellington Street rather sterile. Somehow, we need to introduce more life.
Elms, whether I remember many of them, were practically an important symbol for West Wellington/Hintonburg. I'm sure Elmdale (school, tavern, lawn bowling, etc.) was named after a person, but the actual tree stands out more. It's too bad what happened (how long ago did it happen, actually?)

When I was in Montreal, I took my mum for a walk through Jeanne Mance Park, and she remarked at the elm trees growing there. She recounted how she remembers Ottawa having many of them. It was a bit melancholy.

Wellington is still sterile because it's made into a "scenic" (Confederation) boulevard for only important government institutions. Other than people going to work, you have tourists, and that's pretty much all there is. Wellington Street, like Sparks, has no real draw to it, in my opinion. As long as it's only government office buildings where only people with a security pass have access to them, as well as having all the cars coming off the Parkway, it won't be anything more than what it currently is. I don't know if I care for having such an austere street, because to me an austere street is an unfriendly one.
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  #51  
Old Posted Feb 10, 2014, 6:08 PM
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I would rather see modern buildings going up in areas where there are surface parking lots, and deteriorated commericial and industrial properties. I am not a big fan of seeing our older neighbourhoods being invaded by out of place modern buildings. I noted an example yesterday in Ottawa South where post war houses were being replaced by oversized modern boxes. These are not even increasing density, as it is one house for one house.

Also, we need to make sure that extra high rise buildings are placed in locations that don't interfere with traditional views of the Parliament Buildings. For example, looking down the canal, or looking downstream along the Ottawa River. Extra tall buildings need to be elsewhere than downtown. The focal point of downtown still needs to be Parliament and not some ultra modern tower, particularly a condominium. That is not what Ottawa should be about. It is like building an 80 storey building to block the view of the Eifel Tower in Paris. We do need to consider the overall esthetics before we start throwing up skyscrapers.
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  #52  
Old Posted Feb 10, 2014, 6:18 PM
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Originally Posted by defishel View Post
Elms, whether I remember many of them, were practically an important symbol for West Wellington/Hintonburg. I'm sure Elmdale (school, tavern, lawn bowling, etc.) was named after a person, but the actual tree stands out more. It's too bad what happened (how long ago did it happen, actually?)

When I was in Montreal, I took my mum for a walk through Jeanne Mance Park, and she remarked at the elm trees growing there. She recounted how she remembers Ottawa having many of them. It was a bit melancholy.

Wellington is still sterile because it's made into a "scenic" (Confederation) boulevard for only important government institutions. Other than people going to work, you have tourists, and that's pretty much all there is. Wellington Street, like Sparks, has no real draw to it, in my opinion. As long as it's only government office buildings where only people with a security pass have access to them, as well as having all the cars coming off the Parkway, it won't be anything more than what it currently is. I don't know if I care for having such an austere street, because to me an austere street is an unfriendly one.
Elms were everywhere. Until Dutch Elm Disease struck, they were the tough, hardy, adaptable tree suitable for street planting. They could take pretty well everything. They were the street tree that was used in pretty well every Canadian city. In Ottawa, it was heartbreaking to see them dying and that really hit between 1965 and 1975. I remember one particularly outstanding specimen on my grandparent's farm just outside the city. Perhaps 100 feet tall with a massive canopy that was so typical. It was a survivor too until the 1998 ice storm. That finally exposed it to Dutch Elm Disease and it was gone a few years later.

From everything I have ever known or seen, Wellington Street has always been sterile. This is not a new development that has happened in recent years. In fact, it appears to have been by design. The federal government would not even allow streetcars on Wellington Street in front of Parliament Hill.
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  #53  
Old Posted Feb 10, 2014, 6:24 PM
Urbanarchit Urbanarchit is offline
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Originally Posted by lrt's friend View Post
I would rather see modern buildings going up in areas where there are surface parking lots, and deteriorated commericial and industrial properties. I am not a big fan of seeing our older neighbourhoods being invaded by out of place modern buildings. I noted an example yesterday in Ottawa South where post war houses were being replaced by oversized modern boxes. These are not even increasing density, as it is one house for one house.

Also, we need to make sure that extra high rise buildings are placed in locations that don't interfere with traditional views of the Parliament Buildings. For example, looking down the canal, or looking downstream along the Ottawa River. Extra tall buildings need to be elsewhere than downtown. The focal point of downtown still needs to be Parliament and not some ultra modern tower, particularly a condominium. That is not what Ottawa should be about. It is like building an 80 storey building to block the view of the Eifel Tower in Paris. We do need to consider the overall esthetics before we start throwing up skyscrapers.
True, I'm not saying we should demolish any heritage building to replace it with something modern. We have too many vacant lots throughout the 5 or so main city wards (Kitchissippi, Somerset, Capital, Rideau-Vanier, Rideau-Rockcliffe), that we could spend decades filling those in without ever touching anything else.

At the same time, there are many "heritage" buildings in Lowertown, Centretown, Hintonburg/Mechanicsville (some you can find by google mapping O'Connor between Gladstone and O'Connor, for example), ones that people argue are heritage because they were there a long time.

One a side note, I was thinking about the demolition of this building for Central phase 4, and I was wondering if we demolished several buildings with these bricks, would we be able to save these bricks and use them again in another project? We can't really get the same bricks that we used to use, and using newer bricks here looks really odd or out-of-place (look at the terrible patch-job across the street from this building to see what I mean)? Could they be used to fix up old buildings with the same bricks or, if we had enough, use them to build an entirely new house or building using this bricks instead of other ones?

Last edited by Urbanarchit; Feb 11, 2014 at 1:32 AM.
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  #54  
Old Posted Feb 10, 2014, 6:27 PM
Urbanarchit Urbanarchit is offline
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Elms were everywhere. Until Dutch Elm Disease struck, they were the tough, hardy, adaptable tree suitable for street planting. They could take pretty well everything. They were the street tree that was used in pretty well every Canadian city. In Ottawa, it was heartbreaking to see them dying and that really hit between 1965 and 1975. I remember one particularly outstanding specimen on my grandparent's farm just outside the city. Perhaps 100 feet tall with a massive canopy that was so typical. It was a survivor too until the 1998 ice storm. That finally exposed it to Dutch Elm Disease and it was gone a few years later.

From everything I have ever known or seen, Wellington Street has always been sterile. This is not a new development that has happened in recent years. In fact, it appears to have been by design. The federal government would not even allow streetcars on Wellington Street in front of Parliament Hill.
That does sound like quite a sad thing to see... And we might be seeing it again with the Ash Borer, right?

What about Wellington Street when it had commerce on it (pre-40s)? It must have been bustling then. It's just the government and NCC that have made it sterile and austere in the past several decades.
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  #55  
Old Posted Feb 10, 2014, 7:25 PM
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Elms really change the character of a street and provide such extensive shade. Walk down a street in Edmonton or Regina and it's like being transported to Leave it to Beaver times.

Frankly, as of last summer, it seemed like 95% of Ottawa's ash trees were dead or in various stages of dying. The scorching summer of 2012 and the proceeding three warmer-than-normal winters sealed the deal. The borer really spread like wildfire - especially on the Vibrating Grass Parkway.
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  #56  
Old Posted Feb 10, 2014, 7:47 PM
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I don't see how it would be more maintenance than a concrete/stone statue or something..?
Frost/Thaw cycles = cracks. Fountains must retain water and cracks makes them leak. Statues don't leak.
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  #57  
Old Posted Feb 10, 2014, 7:53 PM
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The Casino du Lac-Leamy has a fairly large fountain in the water-filled gravel pit now known as Lac de la Carrière (ringed by rocky cliffs off A-5). You can see it from Bd Montclair, the A-5 (quickly), Bd de la Carrière and A-50 east of Montcalm. When it is windy it causes spray on the A-50 sometimes.

They winterize it during the cold weather months.
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  #58  
Old Posted Feb 10, 2014, 8:37 PM
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Originally Posted by OTSkyline View Post
4) If Pimisi is so culturally important for Native Americans and such why not create a sort of "Native American village" @ Pimisi/Lebreton? It would have huts, a cultural education centre, some sort of old general store, a restaurant erving their types of dishes, probably some sort of gift shop, maybe some canoes, totem poles and some demonstrations maybe on how they used to tan animal skin or carve the canoes and totem poles or something... It would be both educational, interesting for visitors AND it would make the native americans very happy I think... It would also be cool because imagine the juxtaposition of the "village" with the high rises of downtown in the background...
Great concept but I must nitpick one thing--Pimisi is significant to Algonquin culture & the Algonquin nation specifically, not necessarily 'Native Americans' as a whole (that's like saying the Eiffel Tower is a significant monument for all white people, rather than just the French). Totem poles and tipis belong to the west coast & prairie nations, and have nothing to do with the Algonquin.
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  #59  
Old Posted Feb 10, 2014, 8:43 PM
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Last night, I was listening to the recording from the recent Transportation Committee meeting... City staff explained that snow removal from narrow streets with buildings that have very little setback from the lot line, are one of the most expensive configurations. The cost difference is in the millions!
That's snow removal.

What about all other municipal costs?
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  #60  
Old Posted Feb 10, 2014, 8:44 PM
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There are many who would argue the Alexandra Bridge is a historical gem. A heritage structure. I say it's ugly and unbefitting for a national capital city. It's a depressing looking structure that conjures up images of harder times.

Not to me, it doesn't. It conjures up a city that was a city then, with a downtown rail station and streetcars and other urban attributes, not a pallid suburb of itself.

And what "befits" a capital city? Ottawa's (and the NCC's) obsession with Prettyism is about 40% of the problem.
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