Halifax Stadium Discussion

[Nilan8888]

Not to mention the Staten Island is free! I was on it a couple of years ago and as I was exiting I noticed the floor plan on the wall said "this level 1550 passangers" and there are 3 levels. Perhaps they would sell us one if they need an upgrade? It would be a great tourist draw...........It could dock at Purdy's Wharf.

Right, well even what I'm suggesting:

1. Would not be free to help pay for itself

2. Would probably have an assortment of ferries that could handle the situation. They could use Purdys, but could use some of the other docks as well. Or enlarge the current ferry facility. But yeah, even in the short term they could just buy just one of those larger boats, set up a ticket window on Purdy's, and they're off to the races. Although I'd prefer a larger investment and looking into if they could re-vamp the current ferry terminal.

3. The example of Staten Island is to just give an idea of what's possible. When dealing with a crowd of 25,000 people, how many of these would the ferry(s) service? The aim is not of course to even be able to service all 25,000 people, but to make routes less congested for those 25,000 people. Even if it's only 1,500 people, remember that of the remaining 23,500, we're not concerned so much about those staying in Dartmouth or those running up to Bedford and Sackville: the Bedford bypass would take care of most of that. Nor are we concerned about those that have trucked it in from say, Moncton -- they'll be headed up the 118, past Dartmouth Crossing. We're only concerned about the portion of that 23,500 that's living either in Halifax or communities further west. And sure, that's a significant number, but 1,500 is a much larger chunk of that number even if we somehow can't get past that 1,500 ceiling, which I think is totally possible.


I think there's more transit options in Shannon Park as-is than even in Downtown, and that it would cost relatively less to make make it a serviceable location. There's the downside RyeJay points out, and rightly so -- in that it creates a sort of 'urban node' outside of either current downtown region and not on the Halifax peninsula -- but I think if we put it this the peninsula, the amount of rework that would have to go into handling local traffic would be at least just as much cost: I think Windsor street would have to be completely revamped, and Massachusetts/Robie, although better equipped, would have to be significantly re-done as well, not to mention Kempt Rd. And there'd be a lot of headaches as the construction went on around those neighborhoods. Wouldn't the road network need to be significantly re-organized? Plus we might be thinking about an LRT to handle all the human traffic much sooner than we might otherwise need to (which is not so bad, but it's costly).

Put it in Shannon Park and I think you'd just be working with Windmill Rd. I know we don't want to plan around short-term headaches like that, but there is a certain convenience to it.

Does it stretch out the urban area and kick density in the shins? Yeah, I suppose... but other cities have made worse decisions regarding their stadiums.

[TheNovaScotian]

I'm not sure if this is a statistic that you all seem to overlook but while doing a analysis of the area for a urban planning project. North End Dartmouth is the densest district in regard to housing east of Montreal, not the Peninsula. So this argument of stretching the density is invalid. There are now more jobs in Burnside than on the Peninsula so getting people to be able to walk to work this area has to become a major growth area that has been neglected since Shannon Park was decommissioned , we amalgamated all the communities together so the infrastructure should be put in places of best use

[Nilan8888]

Oh. Well then, there you go.

Densest, eh? Where are all those people living, though? What part of North Dartmouth?

[RyeJay]

Originally Posted by Nilan8888

Firstly, because there's footprint and transit issues.

Secondly, because while Shannon Park is not on the peninsula, it's still in a central location, geographically speaking.

Transit issues can be addressed and are well worth the investment on the peninsula where we have the greatest potential for density (and taxpayers to fund this enterprise).

Shannon Park is not a central location when you take into consideration where most people in HRM live. The geographical centre is much further northwest.

Originally Posted by Nilan8888

It's not ideal from a density standpoint, but it's not like Shannon Park is out of the city limits, or even in the suburbs. I think stimulating development over there is still close enough to have a positive effect on the argument.

I'd contend that Halifax isn't laid out as simply as Calgary, Edmonton or Toronto. You've got people on both sides of the harbor. Weighted to the Halifax side yes, but Dartmouth ain't nothin'. And you've got people coming into the city from outside to consider as well, and Shannon Park helps avoid them clogging Halifax city streets (to their benefit as well as ours). The widest highway in HRM is, I think, the circumferential leading right into the Mackay terminal. Transit wise I think this makes a lot of sense.

I agree; Shannon Park isn't ideal.
We can do better than just "close enough."

Originally Posted by Nilan8888

I'm with you in that this will create potential growth in an area that's not in downtown. But it's on the water and still in The Narrows. It would be good to have a stadium on the peninsula, but frankly I think of the city as Halifax, Bedford, Sackville and Dartmouth together, and in terms of that, I think it's central enough.

Saying "it's central enough" gives me the impression that Shannon Park is mediocre.

What is the most central location?

Originally Posted by Nilan8888

I dunno about that. Lady Hammond Road, Kempt Road... People coming in from Bedford would mostly be coming in along the west (Halifax) side, and those coming in from out of town like NB would be taking a few other arteries as well. I think Shannon Park makes some of this much simpler.

Most people going to these games will be from HRM. A stadium in Shannon Park would mean much higher levels of congestion on the MacKay Bridge.

[RyeJay]

Originally Posted by isaidso

halifax needs to find a location on peninsula halifax despite the difficulties inherent with that.

+1.

[RyeJay]

Originally Posted by Empire

Demolish Windsor Park. Rebuild a mega facility at Shannon Park.

Build the stadium on the newly created brownfield site.

Move Windsor Park:
https://maps.google.com/maps?q=windsor+p...nicipality,+Nova+Scotia,+Canada&t=h&z=17

I would like Windsor Park.

[Antigonish]

http://thechronicleherald.ca/business/11...for-halifax-cfl-franchise-needs-time-out

I see pessimism is still a live and well in HRM..

Originally Posted by TheNovaScotian

Shannon Park offers a chance for Halifax to get another "iconic" piece on our waterfront, this even as a starter stadium with two 12.5 k grandstands would look great if we orientated the open end zones to look out over the harbour with the MacKay overhead.

I think this is the best bet in terms of orientation (facing west), if the endzones face south all you'll see are 3 huge smoke stacks from the power plant and the site is too far from downtown to get a decent skyline view. Could you imagine how iconic that view would look? Similar to PNC Park in Pittsburgh!

[RyeJay]

Originally Posted by Empire

What are you referring to by the underused industrial lands? Dominion metals had a big site on Kempt Rd. (now a huge car lot) but other than that there are only individual lots with more car dealers and ugly strip malls and fast food joints. You would have to put 10 sites together and how likely is that?

10 sites seems like an excessive goal. Accumulating one or a few of the larger sites would suffice. Lady Hammond Road.

[RyeJay]

Originally Posted by TheNovaScotian

I'm not sure if you get over to Dartmouth much but considering, Shannon Park sits next the North End of Dartmouth which has the highest population density in the city, I strongly disagree with your argument. Amalgamation happened close to 20 years ago and we can't just try to squeeze all the missing infrastructure the city needs onto the peninsula.

What information have you read that indicates this region of Dartmouth has the highest densities?

All the surface parking lots, warehouses, and low-density buildings on the peninsula is clearly evidence that we are not even close to "squeezing" everything onto the peninsula.

Originally Posted by TheNovaScotian

It's not like Shannon Park/ Tufts Cove is on the outlier in the city,

Shannon Park is the sprawled option that is Dartmouth Crossing. But Shannon Park is still not the most central location.

Originally Posted by TheNovaScotian

To achieve walkability in a city, it doesn't mean every home needs to be close to all amenities, it means that transit service are centrally located so the users can "walk" home or to work relatively easy.

Shannon Park is going to be a separate urban node, disconnected from the vast majority of the city's walking population.
We want an urban stadium. We don't want a stadium so heavily dependent on vehicle traffic.

It would be a mistake to not put this stadium as close to the city's universities as possible.

Originally Posted by TheNovaScotian

We are already a highly walkable city considering it was founded and planned by people that walked alot.

Our walkability is decent because of the density on the peninsula. Let's keep building on that.
Shannon Park is too much like starting from scratch. It's basically as bad as sprawl in this context.

Originally Posted by TheNovaScotian

Shannon Park offers a chance for Halifax to get another "iconic" piece on our waterfront, this even as a starter stadium with two 12.5 k grandstands would look great if we orientated the open end zones to look out over the harbour with the MacKay overhead.

A stadium north of Young Street would be iconic as well. A waterfront isn't a prerequisite for achieving successful sport entertainment and community venues. A stadium on the peninsula could just as well be more iconic.

[Dmajackson]

I do like the idea of having a CFL stadium on the Peninsula but the main problem is most of the larger sites are owned by the federal government and they aren't known for giving up land to municipalities easily. The only site I see as truly feasible is the car dealership area on Kempt Road.


Google Maps Satellite Image Edited by Me

The orange pad in the rendering is about the size of McMahon Stadium (Calgary) which would put this stadium in the 30-35'000 seat range. My vision is for an open-air stadium with half below ground and half above ground. The bleachers will be accessed via a wrap around walkway between the upper and lower sections. The concession/entrance are will wrap around the stadium in an enclosed 4-storey building.

Parking on-site will consist of two stacked parking lots with 4-storeys each. Parkade #1 will be accessed off of Lady Hammond Road near the overpass and it will be located between the stadium and Massachusetts Avenue. Parkade #2 will have a much larger floorplate and be accessed off of Kempt Road (across from Hood Street) and from a new traffic-light on Massachusetts Avenue. These access ponts will provide direct access to the Windsor Street Exchange, Fairview Overpass, MacKay Bridge, Barrington Street, Gottingen/Novelea, Robie Street, and Kempt Road.

To help alleviate the congestion in and around games a small bus terminal would be built on the backside of the building. Premium, non-stop buses would run between the stadium and Mumford, Bridge, Lacewood, Sackville, Cobequid, Highfield, and Fall River Park N' Rides before, during and after games. Fares would show the premium value of this service while still staying low enough to entice drivers to use the free Park N' Rides and account for distance travelled (ie $3 for Mumford, $5 for Fall River). Fares could be paid in cash, smartcard, bus pass, U-pass or included in the CFL ticket price.

Pedestrian access to the stadium would be from two plazas, one on Kempt Road and one on Lady Hammond. An active-transportation overpass of Massacheusetts Avenue linking to John Parr Drive could be explored as well.

Lands along the south-side of Kempt Road would be rezoned to allow for a strip of clubs and bars in addition to existing restaurants. The triangle parcel at Lady Hammond and Kempt and lands north of Lady Hammond will be rezoned to allow large scale residential/hotel uses with bonus density provisions for additional public parking.

[RyeJay]

Originally Posted by Nilan8888

There's the downside RyeJay points out, and rightly so -- in that it creates a sort of 'urban node' outside of either current downtown region and not on the Halifax peninsula -- but I think if we put it this the peninsula, the amount of rework that would have to go into handling local traffic would be at least just as much cost: I think Windsor street would have to be completely revamped, and Massachusetts/Robie, although better equipped, would have to be significantly re-done as well, not to mention Kempt Rd. And there'd be a lot of headaches as the construction went on around those neighborhoods. Wouldn't the road network need to be significantly re-organized? Plus we might be thinking about an LRT to handle all the human traffic much sooner than we might otherwise need to (which is not so bad, but it's costly).

Infrastructure upgrades to the peninsula are a good thing. It will promote more density and a healthier tax base.
Every bitches about construction delays -- from highway projects to downtown lowrises. The headaches pass.

Originally Posted by Nilan8888

Put it in Shannon Park and I think you'd just be working with Windmill Rd. I know we don't want to plan around short-term headaches like that, but there is a certain convenience to it.

Let's think long-term instead.

Originally Posted by Nilan8888

Does it stretch out the urban area and kick density in the shins? Yeah, I suppose... but other cities have made worse decisions regarding their stadiums.

Cities everywhere make horrible decisions. Halifax does not have to make evenly a slightly horrible decision because we know better!!

We set the bar so low?
Ottawa was stupid with its stadium. Being slightly better than stupid is nothing to be proud of.

[Nilan8888]

Transit issues can be addressed and are well worth the investment on the peninsula where we have the greatest potential for density (and taxpayers to fund this enterprise).

I'm just laying out that they're easier addressed in Shannon Park, and that addressing them in Peninsular Halifax is likely more costly.

Shannon Park is not a central location when you take into consideration where most people in HRM live. The geographical centre is much further northwest.

Well technically the geographical center is probably over water. If you took into account where most people live, it would probably be somewhere along the waterfront on the Halifax side, or something along those lines.

But if you look at how transit is currently laid out, you begin to see the benefits right away: being at the McKay bridge, this is already a location likely to be some sort of transit hub in the long-term future, just a secondary one to the McDonald bridge. If you look at the routes in from Bedford and even the 118, a very minimal amount of time is spent by those cars in Dartmouth, let alone Halifax, which they would never enter.

It is true that we now replace congestion of Dartmouth fans on the bridge with Halifax fans on the bridge. But I disagree with this statement:

Most people going to these games will be from HRM. A stadium in Shannon Park would mean much higher levels of congestion on the MacKay Bridge.

This is only one potential route back into Halifax. Those living downtown or the south end or even the southern part of the north end could opt to head down Windmill Road and take the McDonald.

Plus, you know, ferry option.

Because Shannon Park doesn't have a lot immediately around it, you could start building a lot of this stuff without having to demolish a whole lot of what's already existing.

I agree; Shannon Park isn't ideal.
We can do better than just "close enough."

But what would we be sacrificing in terms of cost? It's not that better can't be done, it's what are we really getting for that much better density? Are we really getting as much bang for our buck in choosing a North End location over Shannon Park?

I think there's something to be said on the density front in your analysis (although others even disagree on that point, as per above), but there's other factors to consider as well, among them cost, ease of construction, ease of transit, and even just plain how it's going to look.

Saying "it's central enough" gives me the impression that Shannon Park is mediocre.

On the density argument... it's not?

What is the most central location?

Downtown, of course. But that's not feasible.

[Drybrain]

I'm not arguing pro or anti-Shannon Park, but I would say that Halifax is a multipolar city--the peninsula is the centre of the centres, let's say, but central Dartmoth and the area immediately around the Basin, up to Bedford, are still pretty darn central. They create secondary downtown-style nodes that should, over time, be developed. I think to automatically assume this must go on the peninsula shuts us off from other possibilities. And, again, people will be coming from all over the HRM, and in some case other parts of the province or even NB/PEI. Not to say they should be preferenced over locals, but it's something to think about when considering location. It's already bad enough commuting over the bridges at rush hour--do we want to repliacte that every time there's a game?

Having said that, the car-dealership district DmaJackson pointed out looks like a pretty great location, and close to both Bedford Highway and the MacKay Bridge, allowing incoming traffic to be funneled quickly into both west and easterly directions.

Of course, aside from Cogswell, it's also one of the areas ripest for a whole new built-from-scratch neighbourhood, which could be even more amazing.

[xanaxanax]

There is plenty of room in the city. Along with the other spots that have already been mentioned, I'm not in favor of either of these locations but there is more than enough room to build one on Garrison Grounds at the base of citadel hill or part of Gorsebrook Field.


Seaview Lookoff Park is better than Shannon park

[ILoveHalifax]

Originally Posted by xanaxanax

There is plenty of room in the city. Along with the other spots that have already been mentioned, I'm not in favor of either of these locations but there is more than enough room to build one on Garrison Grounds at the base of citadel hill or part of Gorsebrook Field.

Wanders Grounds would only take a slight realignment of Bell Rd. The current VG site could work if we could get that contaminated building replaced.

If you look way back on this tread there is a lot of info on sites and stadia

[Nilan8888]

DmaJackson:

One potential problem there: I think there's a rise there right along where Massachusetts avenue is on the upper street boundary. I used to work the Wendy's on Kempt, and I seem to remember that there's sort of a high ridge along there that would have to be taken care of. Plus there's train tracks running in that space -- I don't know if they're really used, but if we wanted to utilize that space/infrastructure for LRT later on down the road...


EDIT: Used to be tracks. Looks like those were taken out long ago.


Sorry, just pointing out potential complications.

[RyeJay]

Originally Posted by Dmajackson

My vision is for an open-air stadium with half below ground and half above ground. The bleachers will be accessed via a wrap around walkway between the upper and lower sections. The concession/entrance are will wrap around the stadium in an enclosed 4-storey building.

Parking on-site will consist of two stacked parking lots with 4-storeys each. Parkade #1 will be accessed off of Lady Hammond Road near the overpass and it will be located between the stadium and Massachusetts Avenue. Parkade #2 will have a much larger floorplate and be accessed off of Kempt Road (across from Hood Street) and from a new traffic-light on Massachusetts Avenue. These access ponts will provide direct access to the Windsor Street Exchange, Fairview Overpass, MacKay Bridge, Barrington Street, Gottingen/Novelea, Robie Street, and Kempt Road.

To help alleviate the congestion in and around games a small bus terminal would be built on the backside of the building. Premium, non-stop buses would run between the stadium and Mumford, Bridge, Lacewood, Sackville, Cobequid, Highfield, and Fall River Park N' Rides before, during and after games. Fares would show the premium value of this service while still staying low enough to entice drivers to use the free Park N' Rides and account for distance travelled (ie $3 for Mumford, $5 for Fall River). Fares could be paid in cash, smartcard, bus pass, U-pass or included in the CFL ticket price.

Pedestrian access to the stadium would be from two plazas, one on Kempt Road and one on Lady Hammond. An active-transportation overpass of Massacheusetts Avenue linking to John Parr Drive could be explored as well.

Lands along the south-side of Kempt Road would be rezoned to allow for a strip of clubs and bars in addition to existing restaurants. The triangle parcel at Lady Hammond and Kempt and lands north of Lady Hammond will be rezoned to allow large scale residential/hotel uses with bonus density provisions for additional public parking.

Your work is great! Impressively detailed and well thought out with interesting recommendations. (I wonder about a link to John Parr Drive.) You bring everything together nicely. Your plan considers parking and public transit, and rezoning to allow for highrises.

Shannon Park does not offer us this opportunity.

[xanaxanax]

as much as I hate Bayers Lake it would even be a better location than Shannon Park

[RyeJay]

Originally Posted by Drybrain

the car-dealership district DmaJackson pointed out looks like a pretty great location, and close to both Bedford Highway and the MacKay Bridge, allowing incoming traffic to be funneled quickly into both west and easterly directions.

And the traffic will be more easily funnelled because of walking and bus-taking students and urbanites. Building on the peninsula means fewer cars on the road.

Originally Posted by Drybrain

Of course, aside from Cogswell, it's also one of the areas ripest for a whole new built-from-scratch neighbourhood, which could be even more amazing.

Agreed.

[Empire]

Taylor's wisdom:
http://thechronicleherald.ca/business/11...for-halifax-cfl-franchise-needs-time-out