Halifax Stadium Discussion

[IanWatson]

Originally Posted by xanaxanax

Why not the Dartmouth Commons

Have you been to the Dartmouth Commons? It's mostly a big hill. I doubt the flat space on top is near big enough for a stadium + parking. The Dartmouth Commons are also terrible for transporation routes. Yes, tranist would be good with the bridge terminal right there, but you still need to get cars in and out and quite frankly that's difficult there. Not to mention any such proposal would be met with huge opposition from the community.

Originally Posted by xanaxanax

Dartmouth Commons isn't a safe place to be

This isn't particularly true. Maybe after dark. But the Dartmouth Commons is well used and will be even more as downtown Dartmouth develops.

Originally Posted by xanaxanax

Or that huge area in Dartmouth Cove that is essentially just a large parking lot waiting to be redeveloped into something

HRM just went through a big planning exercise for Dartmouth Cove. It's envisioned to be a mixed use community. Not that this couldn't change, but I don't really see it happening. Same problem with transportation links and surrounding community opposition would hurt a stadium here.

Originally Posted by xanaxanax

Shannon Park isn't very accessible to the public

Shannon Park is very accessible to the public. What we need to keep in mind is that any stadium won't be a Halifax stadium, but an Atlantic Provinces stadium. It's the only way to justify it. So like it or not, a large portion of attendees will come by car. Shannon Park has easy access to the region via connections to Highways 101 and 102, and decent connection via the McKay Bridge. Yes, transit there isn't great right now, but that's because it's had no reason to be. I would hope if the city is dropping dollars on a stadium they'd include a few to upgrade the transit infrastructure. I also can't see a stadium taking the whole site, so hopefully its development would be in tandem with a mini mixed-use community there.

[isaidso]

Halifax needs to find a location on peninsula Halifax despite the difficulties inherent with that.

[Drybrain]

Originally Posted by Nilan8888

All this is thinking of Shannon Park as it currently is. As Someone123 stated, a fair amount of re-development would have to take place, and the first thing on the docket would be infrastructure to make that area easier to get to.

I think there's more pros here than you state. The main reason it's inconvenient isn't that it's so far away, it's just that Halifax isn't yet of the size that Shannon Park is particularly central. But, think ahead: If Halifax became twice its size, Shannon Park isn't going to be a terribly far distance away from the current center of downtown. It's certainly a heck of a lot closer than Ottawa's Stadium.

Furthermore, the stadium itself would become a draw for people, and a cause to re-develop the area. There'd be a lot of landscaping and new roadways to properly connect coming off the bridge to the stadium. Thinking ahead, the Dartmouth sides of BOTH bridges are likely destined to become transportation hubs if a public transit system is ever built, be it subway or the far more likely LRT. Currently it's only really the MacDonald serving as a hub, but in the long term the Mackay will be one as well. Placing the Stadium beneath the Mackay might actually look nicer, and even be more sensible in the long term than even putting it in the North End.

Shannon Park, I think, is only far from Downtown Halifax in Halifax terms. Thinking of the distance in Calgary or even Ottawa terms and it, I think, doesn't seem nearly as far.


If you were to take the most optimal route, from Shannon Park to Downtown Halifax is about 5.8 k. In Toronto terms I think it's about the distance of Front St. to St. Clair, given that it's almost entirely a straight line (I think the distance as the crow flies in Halifax would be a fair bit shorter than 5.8 k).

Indeed. Relative to Halifax, Shannon Park is "far" from downtown, but in absolute terms, it's not especially far. And we still have to keep in mind that HRM is a huge beast, and the majority of visitors to the stadium will still be coming in from off the the peninsula.

[Empire]

Demolish Windsor Park. Rebuild a mega facility at Shannon Park.

Build the stadium on the newly created brownfield site.

Move Windsor Park:
https://maps.google.com/maps?q=windsor+p...nicipality,+Nova+Scotia,+Canada&t=h&z=17

[Nilan8888]

Indeed. Relative to Halifax, Shannon Park is "far" from downtown, but in absolute terms, it's not especially far. And we still have to keep in mind that HRM is a huge beast, and the majority of visitors to the stadium will still be coming in from off the the peninsula.

Wow, that's right: I hadn't even thought of that.

That brings up the question: let's for the moment assume that a North End or even a downtown option was viable via the Cogswell Interchange (which really isn't viable, but let's just assume for the moment that there was JUST enough land left).

Given Halifax's Geography and the way the land is laid out, would even THAT be better than Shannon Park?

A downtown option seems very attractive, but you're signing yourself up for a lot of people congesting the bridges, most of it going to the McDonald since the MacKay is out of the way unless you're headed to North Dartmouth or going to Bedford that way -- but that general area is the sparsest-populated area of the harbor.

If you place it in Shannon Park, and put in a nice big ferry terminal there... think of the possibilities. Before we even get to an LRT option (costly and years away, even though I'm a supporter), we're using the harbor more optimally as a means of mass transit. It makes more sense to have a big terminal there running to Downtown Halifax, Downtown Dartmouth, Bedford, and maybe even the North End. If living in downtown takes off, people will be able to easily walk from anywhere downtown Halifax/Dart., and take the ferry up to the Stadium. Meanwhile the Beford / North end locations would be more a 'park n go' similar to what they had been planning before with the fast ferries. With a terminal so close to a new stadium, this becomes a lot more cohesive and might even serve as a general mass transit stepping stone until they one day put in a proper LRT (and gives Halifax a good mass transit alternative in the long term: 50 years from now, if Hali. gets an LRT, people downtown still won't have to use it because they can still just take the ferry).

Plus, as you say, people coming from the East End won't be congesting the bridges. This probably just means people from Halifax congesting the bridges instead, but here I think the traffic would be divided more equally across both the McDonald and McKay. The McDonald isn't really 'out of the way' if you're driving back to your condo in downtown Halifax, but at the same time, taking the McKay makes almost as much sense. It's just a question of at what point you want to go over the harbor.

So yeah: if they did this right, connected it up to the bridge nice and proper, stuck in a nice big ferry terminal, left room for some sort of LRT connection some day... thanks to the geography, placing it in Shannon Park might actually give us an stadium that's way more accessible than people might think at first glance, and at a relatively low cost. Most cities don't have a realistic ferry option like that.

[Empire]

Originally Posted by Nilan8888

Most cities don't have a realistic ferry option like that.

What option? 500 seat ferry runs maybe every 45 min? 1000 bums in seats?

[RyeJay]

Why would we want to place a stadium in Shannon Park and stimulate redevelopment in that area when there are undeveloped and underdeveloped areas of the peninsula?!

Aren't we trying to increase density in order to justify an investment in better forms of public transit to benefit everyone in HRM? Shannon Park doesn't do that for us.

A stadium on the underused industrial lands north of Young Street is just as easy for suburbanites and out-of-towners to get to. Shannon Park offers no benefit of distance for people travelling by vehicle. Take the Bedford Highway. Take the MacKay Bridge.
We need to keep building on the city's walkability. Having a stadium in Shannon Park means virtually no one on the peninsula will walk there. This will add to our traffic problems. I doubt very much that stadium organisers would spend money on new ferry services -- which won't move many people anyway!

Wouldn't the North End's old industrial lands be the most cost effective spot? These low-density sites are more likely to redevelop than anything in or around Shannon Park -- especially considering Shannon Park isn't near high population densities like the northern portion of the peninsula is.

Build. on. the. peninsula.

[Nilan8888]

What option? 500 seat ferry runs maybe every 45 min? 1000 bums in seats?

Right, because they would certainly never upgrade the ferry service.

[Empire]

Originally Posted by Nilan8888

Right, because they would certainly never upgrade the ferry service.

That is an upgraded service.

[Empire]

Originally Posted by RyeJay

Why would we want to place a stadium in Shannon Park and stimulate redevelopment in that area when there are undeveloped and underdeveloped areas of the peninsula?!

Aren't we trying to increase density in order to justify an investment in better forms of public transit to benefit everyone in HRM? Shannon Park doesn't do that for us.

A stadium on the underused industrial lands north of Young Street is just as easy for suburbanites and out-of-towners to get to. Shannon Park offers no benefit of distance for people travelling by vehicle. Take the Bedford Highway. Take the MacKay Bridge.
We need to keep building on the city's walkability. Having a stadium in Shannon Park means virtually no one on the peninsula will walk there. This will add to our traffic problems. I doubt very much that stadium organisers would spend money on new ferry services -- which won't move many people anyway!

Wouldn't the North End's old industrial lands be the most cost effective spot? These low-density sites are more likely to redevelop than anything in or around Shannon Park -- especially considering Shannon Park isn't near high population densities like the northern portion of the peninsula is.

Build. on. the. peninsula.

What are you referring to by the underused industrial lands? Dominion metals had a big site on Kempt Rd. (now a huge car lot) but other than that there are only individual lots with more car dealers and ugly strip malls and fast food joints. You would have to put 10 sites together and how likely is that?

[Nilan8888]

Why would we want to place a stadium in Shannon Park and stimulate redevelopment in that area when there are undeveloped and underdeveloped areas of the peninsula?!

Firstly, because there's footprint and transit issues.

Secondly, because while Shannon Park is not on the peninsula, it's still in a central location, geographically speaking.

Aren't we trying to increase density in order to justify an investment in better forms of public transit to benefit everyone in HRM? Shannon Park doesn't do that for us.

It's not ideal from a density standpoint, but it's not like Shannon Park is out of the city limits, or even in the suburbs. I think stimulating development over there is still close enough to have a positive effect on the argument.

I'd contend that Halifax isn't laid out as simply as Calgary, Edmonton or Toronto. You've got people on both sides of the harbor. Weighted to the Halifax side yes, but Dartmouth ain't nothin'. And you've got people coming into the city from outside to consider as well, and Shannon Park helps avoid them clogging Halifax city streets (to their benefit as well as ours). The widest highway in HRM is, I think, the circumferential leading right into the Mackay terminal. Transit wise I think this makes a lot of sense.

I'm with you in that this will create potential growth in an area that's not in downtown. But it's on the water and still in The Narrows. It would be good to have a stadium on the peninsula, but frankly I think of the city as Halifax, Bedford, Sackville and Dartmouth together, and in terms of that, I think it's central enough.

A stadium on the underused industrial lands north of Young Street is just as easy for suburbanites and out-of-towners to get to. Shannon Park offers no benefit of distance for people travelling by vehicle. Take the Bedford Highway. Take the MacKay Bridge.

I dunno about that. Lady Hammond Road, Kempt Road... People coming in from Bedford would mostly be coming in along the west (Halifax) side, and those coming in from out of town like NB would be taking a few other arteries as well. I think Shannon Park makes some of this much simpler.

We need to keep building on the city's walkability. Having a stadium in Shannon Park means virtually no one on the peninsula will walk there. This will add to our traffic problems. I doubt very much that stadium organisers would spend money on new ferry services.

I think eventually they would. Even if they didn't start out that way, as time went on, the advantages would become obvious.

[Nilan8888]

That is an upgraded service.

Yeah, but clearly the scale is going to be need to be upped again.

Come on, are we saying 1000 people every 45 minutes over a distance the width of the harbor is the height of ferry technology?

[Empire]

Originally Posted by Nilan8888

Come on, are we saying 1000 people every 45 minutes over a distance the width of the harbor is the height of ferry technology?

No we are not. The Woodside ferry takes 14min. to cross and is ~1.7km.

If they had a similar bathtub going to Shannon Park with 500 people, a distance of 4.5km, it would take 37.0min. If you calculate loading and unloading time with the one ferry then turnaround would be more like 1:34min. for 1000.

You would need a cat with 1500 capacity min.

[Nilan8888]

The Staten Island ferries are able to carry well over 500 people -- if indeed it was decided ones that large were needed.

[ILoveHalifax]

So if we are to count on ferries to get the crowd to a stadium and we can get 500 per trip, let's just say 3 trips before the game from downtown total 1500 people. Let's say 25,000 people less 1,500 still leaves 23,500 still getting there by car, bus, walking? Hardly worth the cost of a new ferry.

[Nilan8888]

Again, this assumes we cannot get a ferry to travel faster, cannot get more ferries, and cannot get larger ferries.

It also leaves out ferries coming from other potential locations.

I find it a bit foolish that New York can get 75,000 people to Staten Island every day, but we're somehow restricted to 1,500 people getting across the harbor. Yeah, bigger boats, maybe faster boats, and more of them. Yeah, New York is bigger, but it's not like we're even talking the same measure of commitment. Bigger facilities are needed. What of it?

[Migs]

All one has to do is look at Regina as a template as to what a stadium and a profootball team does for a city and province. Not only does it bring in tens of millions of dollars in economic activity annually, it brings people together culturally and socially in a way not many other events can. Thankfully the 2 local levels of govt along with the Riders see the great benefit of the team and in order to sustain this we are currently building a world class $300M stadium. The Roughriders are a provincical icon in Regina and I think a city like Halifax could develop something similar.

Just imagine something like this in Halifax broadcasted around the world to millions of people,


http://youtu.be/ia1Qn8-98Ac


its amazing what it does for the civic pride of a community. If Halifax builds a stadium and gets a CFL team, my family will be one of the first football fans who make the trek east to watch the Riders play against the Schooners. What a fantastic thing it would be to have a team in the Maritimes. Get it done!

[Migs]

Originally Posted by counterfactual

Dumb question, but what is the stadium for?

Is it supposed to be for a CFL team?

Or is it supposed to be a Metro Centre upgrade?

Because, it seems to me that we'll definitely make use out of a larger hockey stadium.

But if a CFL team never comes here, I don't see us making very great use out of a huge football stadium.

And, presumably, the space/real estate required for either of these are different.

Halifax will have a CFL franchise the day after they commit to building a new stadium.

[Empire]

Originally Posted by Nilan8888

Again, this assumes we cannot get a ferry to travel faster, cannot get more ferries, and cannot get larger ferries.

It also leaves out ferries coming from other potential locations.

I find it a bit foolish that New York can get 75,000 people to Staten Island every day, but we're somehow restricted to 1,500 people getting across the harbor. Yeah, bigger boats, maybe faster boats, and more of them. Yeah, New York is bigger, but it's not like we're even talking the same measure of commitment. Bigger facilities are needed. What of it?

Not to mention the Staten Island is free! I was on it a couple of years ago and as I was exiting I noticed the floor plan on the wall said "this level 1550 passangers" and there are 3 levels. Perhaps they would sell us one if they need an upgrade? It would be a great tourist draw...........It could dock at Purdy's Wharf.

Capacity 4400:
http://www.siferry.com/SIFerry_Current_Ferries.aspx

[TheNovaScotian]

Originally Posted by RyeJay

Wouldn't the North End's old industrial lands be the most cost effective spot? These low-density sites are more likely to redevelop than anything in or around Shannon Park -- especially considering Shannon Park isn't near high population densities like the northern portion of the peninsula is.

Build. on. the. peninsula.

I'm not sure if you get over to Dartmouth much but considering, Shannon Park sits next the North End of Dartmouth which has the highest population density in the city, I strongly disagree with your argument. Amalgamation happened close to 20 years ago and we can't just try to squeeze all the missing infrastructure the city needs onto the peninsula.

It's not like Shannon Park/ Tufts Cove is on the outlier in the city, with Harbour Isle and Irvings purchase of Maritime Steel, the area already is on a upswing due to its proximity to Burnside and the Shipyard. Including Wallace Heights and the new section on homes between Victoria and Windmill, this area is an already established neighborhood that is growing. I've always seen that area as the best place for a major transit terminal that could be part of a Bedford, Dartmouth and Halifax fast ferry service with buses that handle the traffic into the park. This would elevate the need for a third crossing and make transit to Burnside a lot more convenient.

To achieve walkability in a city, it doesn't mean every home needs to be close to all amenities, it means that transit service are centrally located so the users can "walk" home or to work relatively easy. We are already a highly walkable city considering it was founded and planned by people that walked alot.

Shannon Park offers a chance for Halifax to get another "iconic" piece on our waterfront, this even as a starter stadium with two 12.5 k grandstands would look great if we orientated the open end zones to look out over the harbour with the MacKay overhead.