Calgary Public Transit II

[MonctonGoldenFlames]

yesterday, construction fencing was being installed at barlow/max bell station for the platform expansion.

[UofC.engineer]

Originally Posted by fusili

Question: Am I correct to assume that "AG" under Burnaby (Vancouver) stands for "Automated Guideway" and refers to SkyTrain?

Yes it does.

http://www.apta.com/resources/statistics/Documents/Ridership/missdef.pdf

[ByeByeBaby]

Originally Posted by fusili

Question: Am I correct to assume that "AG" under Burnaby (Vancouver) stands for "Automated Guideway" and refers to SkyTrain?

Yes. Agencies are referred to by their headquarters locations, which is why TransLink gets slotted into Burnaby, rather than Vancouver that most people would associate them with. I believe this also affects BC Transit, which is based in Victoria but runs buses everywhere that isn't Vancouver; from Castlegar to Prince George to Kelowna to Abbotsford.

[fusili]

Originally Posted by UofC.engineer

Yes it does.

http://www.apta.com/resources/statistics/Documents/Ridership/missdef.pdf

Originally Posted by ByeByeBaby

Yes. Agencies are referred to by their headquarters locations, which is why TransLink gets slotted into Burnaby, rather than Vancouver that most people would associate them with. I believe this also affects BC Transit, which is based in Victoria but runs buses everywhere that isn't Vancouver; from Castlegar to Prince George to Kelowna to Abbotsford.

Thanks for the clarifications.

Public transit numbers are always difficult to match with population do to overlapping jurisdictions. In the NYC metropolitan area you have the Metro Transport Authority, Port Authority, Long Island Rail Road and Metro North all providing transit within the region (most focused on Manhattan). But what population do you count it as serving? Metro North goes up to Connecticut (IIRC), so you can't just count those numbers from NYC proper.

By comparison, Calgary is simple.

[Socguy]

Originally Posted by pulkit10

I'm drastically altering the discussion here from HSRs and late night NYE bus service but regarding LRT parking...anyone here from the south that uses the Park & Ride?

Got to Anderson at around 9 am last morning and everything was gone. When's the latest you can find any stalls down there? or any other South LRT station?

Can't speak for Anderson directly, but I can for Southland. I'd guarantee you a spot if you get there by 6:45. By 7am you're playing with fire.

The other alternative (if possible) is to park after 10am because that's when the reserved spots open up.

My hope is that the city decides to put up some parkades at a few of the road heavy stations. Anderson sticks out for me because it's between Macleod and Anderson rd. Perhaps Crowfoot or Tuscany as well, to scoop up those regional commuters and keep them off Crowchild.

[Full Mountain]

Originally Posted by Socguy

Can't speak for Anderson directly, but I can for Southland. I'd guarantee you a spot if you get there by 6:45. By 7am you're playing with fire.

The other alternative (if possible) is to park after 10am because that's when the reserved spots open up.

My hope is that the city decides to put up some parkades at a few of the road heavy stations. Anderson sticks out for me because it's between Macleod and Anderson rd. Perhaps Crowfoot or Tuscany as well, to scoop up those regional commuters and keep them off Crowchild.

Sure, as soon as the stalls are priced on a cost recovery basis. The purpose of Calgary Transit is to provide public transit, not to keep up a parking lot/parkade for private vehicles.

[J-D]

Originally Posted by Full Mountain

Sure, as soon as the stalls are priced on a cost recovery basis. The purpose of Calgary Transit is to provide public transit, not to keep up a parking lot/parkade for private vehicles.

I'd wager to say there are 15-20 thousand transit users that disagree with you. Park and ride is still an important service that Calgary Transit provides.

[pulkit10]

@Socguy: Definitely did not know that about reserved spots. So 10 am onwards, I'm allowed to park in any open reserved spot? That's pretty sweet. Thanks for mentioning that (and to the guy who did it on the previous page).

Yeah, hard to get anything from 7 onwards, as I've learned recently.

As for the additional parking need, I definitely agree. I won't be burning fuel everyday to get down to the University (and pay $6/day) if I could find a spot to park at a C-Train station. The BRT stations have spots but 302 is still not entirely adequate. Of course, it is a tricky proposition because the construction/maintenance would require a lot of investment but if it can lead to an increase in ridership, I'd argue that it is worth it.

[MalcolmTucker]

With structured parking at likely a minimum of $20,000 a spot for above ground it is hard to justify. Better to improve feeder buses.

[fusili]

Originally Posted by J-D

I'd wager to say there are 15-20 thousand transit users that disagree with you. Park and ride is still an important service that Calgary Transit provides.

Are there 15-20 thousand park-n-ride lots? Anybody know?

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by fusili

Are there 15-20 thousand park-n-ride lots? Anybody know?

16951 are listed on the transit website, with 1825 reserved spots still available.

[pulkit10]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

With structured parking at likely a minimum of $20,000 a spot for above ground it is hard to justify. Better to improve feeder buses.

Feeder buses are hard to improve at this point. Reason being the cost of increasing the frequency of service and the duration of the journey. It costs more to increase the frequency of a route like 153 because of the relatively low-ridership and you could argue that they only need to add more routes at specific times but even then it takes 30+ minutes to get to Somerset and that adds significantly to the time. I'll give some examples to downtown:

- Using 153 (feeder bus) and C-Train: approx. 30 minutes to get to Somerset + 30 minutes from there = 1 hour
- Using Park & Ride at Anderson or a nearby station: 15 minutes drive + 20 (usually less) to downtown = 30 - 45 minutes
- Driving all the way: 20 - 25 minutes (normal hour) or 30 - 45 minutes (rush hour)

The point being that Park & Ride is comparable to driving all the way down there (and is therefore, an attractive alternative) while the feeder bus route is awful. And the problem only gets worse the farther away from downtown you want to go - add 20 minutes to the bus route in the case of U of C and you are looking at a commute that takes 1 hr 30 mins!

Alternatively, they could improve upon the SE BRT during rush hour.

[DizzyEdge]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

With structured parking at likely a minimum of $20,000 a spot for above ground it is hard to justify. Better to improve feeder buses.

Seems like though with cost recovery in mind, if you have this new 'overflow' parking tagged to the cost of a transit ticket (so say $3 a day), each $20k spot will bring in $1100 a year.

That way particularly end of line parking can essentially have an early bird pricing of $0, and later pricing of $3 (or whatever) but without worrying you won't get a spot period. I particularly like the idea of this at the NW terminus, keeping Cochrane/Canmore traffic off Crowchild.

[MalcolmTucker]

The cost change once the free parking is full is a really bad incentive. If you need to be at the office at 7:30, why would you ever opt for reserved parking? There should be a fee for occupying a parking spot at lets say 9 am and that is it. The fee should be different between lots to try to maximize utilization.

Does the current parking policy have an automatic review after 3 or 5 years?

[freeweed]

Originally Posted by DizzyEdge

Seems like though with cost recovery in mind, if you have this new 'overflow' parking tagged to the cost of a transit ticket (so say $3 a day), each $20k spot will bring in $1100 a year.

The reserved spots are $70/month. $840/year.

If we're talking $20k for a spot in structured parking, that's 24 years to recover costs. I have to assume a parkade will last longer than 24 years, but I suspect semi-major maintenance comes into play by that point.

Very simplistic math analysis, I realize. I just don't think it's quite the "private vehicle subsidy" that some make it out to be. I suspect you could charge $100/month and most of the reserved spots would be taken, at least at the terminal stations.

I suppose the outstanding question still is this: how much does PnR actually encourage transit usage? We have one person here who is an example of how it does, but is that a small minority of PnR users? Would these people happily sit on feeder buses if PnR didn't exist or was too expensive?

[freeweed]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

If you need to be at the office at 7:30, why would you ever opt for reserved parking?

You probably wouldn't, although I can speak from experience that at Crowfoot, you'd still need to. No way in hell will you find a free spot at 7:00. I doubt there's many available even at 6:30 these days.

The paid spots are aimed pretty directly at the majority of commuters, those that get to work between 8 and 9. By providing the free spaces earlier and later than that, in theory this has spread the load on the trains a little - which is a positive thing for the LRT system as a whole. Not sure if anyone's actually studied that though. While I do know a few people who've done this, anecdotes aren't exactly useful.

[Cage]

Originally Posted by Full Mountain

Sure, as soon as the stalls are priced on a cost recovery basis. The purpose of Calgary Transit is to provide public transit, not to keep up a parking lot/parkade for private vehicles.

Can I include the cost of delivering last mile services (feeder busses to the LRT) into the cost recovery effort? Rather than providing feeder bus services to communities with very low ridership, only provide PnR service at the LRT station.

What we do know is that C Transit operates on 50/50 split, that is for each fare paying passenger at $3 the city subsidizes another $3.

What we also know is the LRT is generally profitable without the fare subsidy (On this point I may be wrong), that is a passenger only taking LRT costs less than $3 dollars to service (would this include capital costs plus ROIC? I don't know the answer.)

Given the above would a combined daily PnR & LRT ticket priced at even $10/day would yield significant better financial performance if it included a reduction in the feeder bus services (might not need complete removal of feeder bus, but only reduce feeder bus service to times when its profitable).

[andasen]

Originally Posted by Cage

Can I include the cost of delivering last mile services (feeder busses to the LRT) into the cost recovery effort? Rather than providing feeder bus services to communities with very low ridership, only provide PnR service at the LRT station.

What we do know is that C Transit operates on 50/50 split, that is for each fare paying passenger at $3 the city subsidizes another $3.

What we also know is the LRT is generally profitable without the fare subsidy (On this point I may be wrong), that is a passenger only taking LRT costs less than $3 dollars to service (would this include capital costs plus ROIC? I don't know the answer.)

Given the above would a combined daily PnR & LRT ticket priced at even $10/day would yield significant better financial performance if it included a reduction in the feeder bus services (might not need complete removal of feeder bus, but only reduce feeder bus service to times when its profitable).

Problem is Transit has a duel mandate. It doesn't just exist to funnel the maximum number of people downtown with a ridership/profitability mindset. It also has the goal of providing coverage/transportation alternatives. Not everyone chooses or is in a position currently to have a car.

[MasterG]

Originally Posted by andasen

Problem is Transit has a duel mandate. It doesn't just exist to funnel the maximum number of people downtown with a ridership/profitability mindset. It also has the goal of providing coverage/transportation alternatives. Not everyone chooses or is in a position currently to have a car.

This dual mandate between frequency and accessibility is a major problem with Calgary Transit. Right now it is largely a focus towards accessibility, meaning short-walk for everyone to low-frequency, low-speed routes to the detriment of creating less accessible (limited stops, farther apart etc.) but more efficient and attractive to users trying to get somewhere faster.

Hopefully with their Route Ahead approach to leverage Primary Transit network will lead to the promotion and restructuring of some of the main routes to be more attractive. The amount of routes that do a few odd turns and strange detours that add 5 minutes to a route to capture relatively few additional riders.

My favourite: Route 305 entering DT from the West. Skips the slow Route 1 journey through Kensignton's congestion by taking 14th street and 9th Ave (Good choice). Turns North on 11th Street to enter congestion there due to trains and lack of priority. Proceeds on 5th Ave, then rejoins Route 1 turning S on 7th Street and eventually onto 7th Ave. This is to capture 1 additional stop on 5th Ave. It usually takes about 10mins longer in rush hour to perform this detour, rather than continue on free-flowing 9th to 6th Street and turn North there to reach 7th ave.

[floobie]

Originally Posted by freeweed

The reserved spots are $70/month. $840/year.

If we're talking $20k for a spot in structured parking, that's 24 years to recover costs. I have to assume a parkade will last longer than 24 years, but I suspect semi-major maintenance comes into play by that point.

Very simplistic math analysis, I realize. I just don't think it's quite the "private vehicle subsidy" that some make it out to be. I suspect you could charge $100/month and most of the reserved spots would be taken, at least at the terminal stations.

I suppose the outstanding question still is this: how much does PnR actually encourage transit usage? We have one person here who is an example of how it does, but is that a small minority of PnR users? Would these people happily sit on feeder buses if PnR didn't exist or was too expensive?

I gave up my reserved spot at Dalhousie station late last year and just started taking the bus there. I've basically started working from home two days a week, so I felt like paying $73/month to park 3 days a week didn't seem worth it. I started taking the 54/154/77 instead. I save $73 a month on parking, another $30 or so on gas, and because I'm only working three days a week, I can save another $30 or so by using tickets instead of a monthly pass (further emphasizing how much I'd love the smart card system, by the way). In terms of travel time, if I time it right, it only takes a bit longer than driving (like 5 minutes). And, in the winter, I save myself from having to spend 10 minutes clearing ice and snow off my car every damn morning (meaning it's often actually faster than driving). And I'm also saving wear and tear on my car, because it never gets even close to operating temperature in the winter when I drive to Dalhousie.

Funnily enough, I'd be more willing to pay for parking again if I parked in a garage at home. Having to dust off my car in the winter just takes that much time. I find the reserved spot fee totally reasonable.