Phoenix Development News (3)

[rocksteady]

Originally Posted by Jjs5056

Do you guys think The Pin is really viable at Hance Park? I applaud the efforts to revitalize the space, but I'm skeptical the park will become a destination of its own without cannibalizing the impact of other positive movements downtown. Wasn't Civic Space supposed to hold movies in the park? Isn't the public market struggling as it is without increased competition nearby? And, should the Knipe restoration go through, are two breweries in such proximity sustainable?

Density in Phoenix is more than just pockets of large populations within small spaces; it's also about creating synergy and excitement through groupings of venues and destinations that draw crowds, preferably of the same interest. The city is too spread out, and its core too lacking to support multiple hubs. That's why planning is crucial to try and force feed vitality into pockets of the city. Roosevelt has the arts scene, Washington some clubs, but what else? Adams and the convention center district have a real shot at creating a piece of Phoenix truly worth visiting if the Pin were to come to fruition. The CC, multiple hotels, future retail ( if the RFPs are to be believed ), Heritage Park, Science Center and now The Pin. Sure, most Phoenicians know the "real" city is to the north, just as NYCers know the Empire State Building isn't the epitome of their home, but this place is in dire need of a Times Square, a Space Needle, etc. and height be damned, I think this would be an excellent step toward connecting all of these pieces- Roosevelt, Adams, CityScape, Ballparks, etc.

Letting this leak over to Hance will be yet another miss (I've lost count); great in theory: extra height, attraction to a dying park, skyline infill, etc. But, in a year, when conventioneers stop bothering to ride the light rail north, and a majority of the other "new" improvements fail or never come to fruition, we'll be left with another waterless play fountain.

Totally agree, but do you feel having such an iconic building in the middle of uptown and downtown will help "connect the dots" more quickly than if it weren't there at all? Will we see more highrises pop up along central to fill in the gap and local businesses clamoring to be nearby The Pin? Seattle's Space Needle isn't in the heart of their downtown either, and if you have ever been up there the distance between the two gives you a much better view of the downtown and surrounding area than if it were build alongside the downtown buildings.

Due to The Pin's limited height of 430ft, I fear that in a decade from now some 500 footers may eventually surround this thing and then it becomes a complete waste. It may also PREVENT some 500 footers from taking root downtown because the city doesn't want to block the Pins views and iconic stature...and I'd hate to see The Pin deter higher buildings getting build downtown. Moving it further north will allow potentially greater heights, an iconic spot in the sky, and more possibilities for FUTURE growth towards its locations from both uptown and downtown. How great would it be to see The Pin dead center of uptown and downtown with a bridged skyline centered with The Pin?

[PHXFlyer11]

Originally Posted by rocksteady

Totally agree, but do you feel having such an iconic building in the middle of uptown and downtown will help "connect the dots" more quickly than if it weren't there at all? Will we see more highrises pop up along central to fill in the gap and local businesses clamoring to be nearby The Pin? Seattle's Space Needle isn't in the heart of their downtown either, and if you have ever been up there the distance between the two gives you a much better view of the downtown and surrounding area than if it were build alongside the downtown buildings.

Due to The Pin's limited height of 430ft, I fear that in a decade from now some 500 footers may eventually surround this thing and then it becomes a complete waste. It may also PREVENT some 500 footers from taking root downtown because the city doesn't want to block the Pins views and iconic stature...and I'd hate to see The Pin deter higher buildings getting build downtown. Moving it further north will allow potentially greater heights, an iconic spot in the sky, and more possibilities for FUTURE growth towards its locations from both uptown and downtown. How great would it be to see The Pin dead center of uptown and downtown with a bridged skyline centered with The Pin?

Agree completely, this is similar to what I was thinking. Sure, it may struggle some to get visitors, but in the process, it can spark some life into Hance Park as well as development up and down Central, not just downtown.

I could see it also limiting future development if it was built in the proposed location.

Central Avenue is really the center of Phoenix. How cool would it be to "drop the pin" on Central and the 10 in Hance Park? Maybe the light rail could run through the base of the pin, and could have its own stop? I think this would help offset some of the traffic that it would lose by not being downtown. Maybe there could be a few rides and other attractions added at the park that couldn't be added downtown. I realize there are logistical, security and engineer aspects here that would have to be addressed, I am just throwing out an idea.

[Jjs5056]

Originally Posted by dtnphx

Well, perhaps The Pin could be a catalyst for a better Hance Park. You can argue it's dying all you want, but it's just underutilized and built over a freeway overpass, it's the the Ellipse or Central Park.

Also, what is the about conventioneers not riding light rail north this year? What does that even mean?

Sorry, I wasn't clear.

1) Not riding north "in a year" was meant to allude to the fact that once the new-ness of The Pin has worn off, do you think out of towners will be as likely to hop on the rail to visit The Pin in an area of town with less attractions/destinations? How many hotels are near the originally proposed locations vs. near Hance? I'd also anticipate some NIMBY action.
2) I hope Hance can transform, but IMO, the plans were a bit underwhelming and taking The Pin from an area where it will be used and likely add excitement and life to a part of town that would probably be best served with amenities everyday residents could use (like a dog park which I have heard good things about, or something like a carousel that local kids could use year-round, etc.) seems like a desperate attempt to catch "the next big thing" for downtown, only this time, it's been pushed even further from the core and even more likely to fizzle than the AZ Center, Colliers, etc. of the past.

I mention all of these merely as food for thought- I'm happy to hear others' thoughts. I just hope more than just height is considered when thinking of where the best location is.

[rocksteady]

Originally Posted by Jjs5056

Sorry, I wasn't clear.

1) Not riding north "in a year" was meant to allude to the fact that once the new-ness of The Pin has worn off, do you think out of towners will be as likely to hop on the rail to visit The Pin in an area of town with less attractions/destinations? How many hotels are near the originally proposed locations vs. near Hance? I'd also anticipate some NIMBY action.
2) I hope Hance can transform, but IMO, the plans were a bit underwhelming and taking The Pin from an area where it will be used and likely add excitement and life to a part of town that would probably be best served with amenities everyday residents could use (like a dog park which I have heard good things about, or something like a carousel that local kids could use year-round, etc.) seems like a desperate attempt to catch "the next big thing" for downtown, only this time, it's been pushed even further from the core and even more likely to fizzle than the AZ Center, Colliers, etc. of the past.

I mention all of these merely as food for thought- I'm happy to hear others' thoughts. I just hope more than just height is considered when thinking of where the best location is.

JJ, do you not thinking having The Pin in the downtown location would jeopardize future highrises that hit the 500ft mark? The city may not approve any around it if it compromises views of this "landmark" building. If the city doesn't care then there would certainly be other legal battles that builders may not want to even deal with.

Secondly, if buildings of equal or greater height are indeed built around it, won't the building become just as useless there than after the initial first year buzz wears off if it were in Hance Park?

[Jjs5056]

Originally Posted by PHXFlyer11

Agree completely, this is similar to what I was thinking. Sure, it may struggle some to get visitors, but in the process, it can spark some life into Hance Park as well as development up and down Central, not just downtown.

I could see it also limiting future development if it was built in the proposed location.

Central Avenue is really the center of Phoenix. How cool would it be to "drop the pin" on Central and the 10 in Hance Park? Maybe the light rail could run through the base of the pin, and could have its own stop? I think this would help offset some of the traffic that it would lose by not being downtown. Maybe there could be a few rides and other attractions added at the park that couldn't be added downtown. I realize there are logistical, security and engineer aspects here that would have to be addressed, I am just throwing out an idea.

Rocksteady and PHXFlyer, I don't disagree with your rationale at all and think you've brought up some exciting ideas. The problem is reality, unfortunately, and those realities include:

1) Making downtown a showpiece is not the main goal or priority for this city and its constituents.
2) (As I am sure you know) Sky Harbor already greatly limits the heights of buildings near The Pin's original location.
3) No projects completed during the last boom even cleared 400' - CityScape I, OCPE, 44 Monroe and The Sheraton hover between 360' and 380'
4) Big business is running away from midtown as fast as possible, leaving a virtual ghosttown and downtown, while thriving in sone sectors, has continued to lose out on any new HQ or satellites locating to the Valley (State Farm, USA Basketball, Apple part 1 and 2, and of course the Intels, eBays, and Paypals of years past)

A lot of here are dreamers, which is awesome, because we get to share ideas that those in City Hall could never come up with on their own. So, sometimes it's hard to face the inevitable. But, we're also smart and understand that the city can still thrive and become something special and unique despite those 4 realities if done properly because we aren't swayed by greed and corruption. But, what these realities mean are:

1a) The funding that goes into making something like the Space Needle so successful so far removed from the core just isn't there, nor is the intrigue or history; nobody will be paying for a light rail stop beneath the structure (love this idea even if it might discourage exploring anything nearby before/after) because interests lie in North Phoenix, not in downtown or midtown.

1b) Because of these competing interests, we need to take advantage of the assets downtown has that no other part of town can offer and create distinct districts and destinations and that will ultimately give DTPHX its identity in a way a big box mini mall on 21056th St. and Eutopia Rd. can't. Midtown weakened our hold on the commercial sector and no the Mayor is hell-bent on diminishing the Bio Campus by moving the planned hospital and other projects to Desert Ridge. However, Sky Harbor's proximity and the renovated Convention Center are here to stay. Why take away the potential for a densely populated tourist node by moving an attraction that will cater mainly to this demographic miles north?

1c) With The Pin in place, along with the other Adams St projects that seem at least somewhat serious - hotel on Central/Adams, renovated retail along the existing frontages, etc. - this area may just be our first truly defined district. Think of the foot traffic when conventions are in town (which will be nearly year-round if our hotel inventory increases) with visitors checking out the retail, Pin, Science Center, Heritage Square... This will spur more retail, bars and restaurants that will be frequented by Phoenicians as well who will start seeing the buzz and wanting to live closer to the action, leading to residential development, and so on. Will it take time? Yes. But, these micro 'environments' are the only way our downtown is going to ever organically come together; when the Roosevelt cluster meets the ASU cluster which meets the tourism/CC which meets the CityScape and Entertainment cluster. Why jeopardize a synergy that seems so easy? It would be like building the tallest ASU dorm at Hance Park (except worse, IMO, since ASU essentially forces its dorms to be in use whereas there is little guarantee the Pin won't go empty within a few years).

1d) While Hance Park isn't Desert Ridge, it isn't downtown. Park Central, a mile or so from the park, destroyed downtown retail. Yes, we are connected via light rail now, but Hance Park and midtown need to find their own purpose and identity and watering down downtown's revitalization to try and "spread the wealth" will do neither side any longterm good. Imagine, as unrealistic as it may be, the The Pin takes off in its Hance location, spurring hotel developments nearby that drive ones like the Mariott and Hyatt out of business... I know it's not going to happen, but maybe people said that about Park Central vs. Hanny's in the midcentury?

2,3,4) Again, I think everyone on here is hoping that Phoenix will be filled with 500-600' structures within the next couple decades, but the reality is that having The Pin's views obstructed by future development is almost a non-issue. As mentioned, the tallest buildings constructed during our biggest "boom" weren't tall enough to block the very top of this thing, and with the FAA wanting to further reduce height limits, I don't see this being a deal-breaker. There are bound to be a few projects closing in on 400' (Colliers, CityScape parking lot, maybe some lots to the west), but I think it's more likely that this construction will be mixed in with midrise development that will allow for unique and interesting view corridors from all angles.

4) I dream of a skyline that flows from Camelback to Madison, but this will never happen unless policy changes drastically to lure out of state HQ to the core and economic forces beyond our city's control encourage movement toward an area with Phoenix's conditions (I see the opposite being more likely given our water issues). Class A space is at a premium and so, like I said, a few more skyscrapers *in the core* are likely, but at this point, that kind of development north of Van Buren would actually be a bit disheartening. I think McDowell-north needs midrise residential, updated frontages wit retail to encourage street life, more green space, etc.

And, that, my friends is my thesis on The Pin, a monument I think has more potential for the city than most imagine, but that will almost certainly go the way of so many other failed Phx proposals.

[Jjs5056]

Originally Posted by rocksteady

JJ, do you not thinking having The Pin in the downtown location would jeopardize future highrises that hit the 500ft mark? The city may not approve any around it if it compromises views of this "landmark" building. If the city doesn't care then there would certainly be other legal battles that builders may not want to even deal with.

Secondly, if buildings of equal or greater height are indeed built around it, won't the building become just as useless there than after the initial first year buzz wears off if it were in Hance Park?

Hi there - I addressed this is in my novel posted below. I know it's a lot to read, so I'll spare you some time. Not one building was constructed the boom that would've impaired The Pin's views from the top, and only 4 came close, each between 360-380'. Since then, the FAA has threatened to reduce limits even further, and though Class A space is at a premium, the City has continually struggled with attracting the types of HQ needing 500' towers. The market and FAA will have much more impact on the lack of future 500' rooters than the city and its potential interests in keeping The Pin's views. Also, keep in mind that AFAIK The Pin is a completely private venture, no? In that case, the chances if the city blocking a proposal that jeopardized the project would be zilch.

Maybe someone with a better understanding of air rights could chime in. I'm sure a project whose revenue model is based off views would protect itself as much as it legally could.

I'm sure potential views were taken into consideration when picking a location, and even if a few towers close in height are built in the future, I think the juxtaposition of mountains against a cityscape almost adds to the draw, and there is less than a 1% chance that downtown will fill up solely with skyscrapers. Low and midrise development is more likely and will help keep these view corridors.

[ASUSunDevil]

Bingo. Bring The Pin Downtown!

Originally Posted by Jjs5056

1c) With The Pin in place, along with the other Adams St projects that seem at least somewhat serious - hotel on Central/Adams, renovated retail along the existing frontages, etc. - this area may just be our first truly defined district. Think of the foot traffic when conventions are in town (which will be nearly year-round if our hotel inventory increases) with visitors checking out the retail, Pin, Science Center, Heritage Square... This will spur more retail, bars and restaurants that will be frequented by Phoenicians as well who will start seeing the buzz and wanting to live closer to the action, leading to residential development, and so on. Will it take time? Yes. But, these micro 'environments' are the only way our downtown is going to ever organically come together; when the Roosevelt cluster meets the ASU cluster which meets the tourism/CC which meets the CityScape and Entertainment cluster. Why jeopardize a synergy that seems so easy? It would be like building the tallest ASU dorm at Hance Park (except worse, IMO, since ASU essentially forces its dorms to be in use whereas there is little guarantee the Pin won't go empty within a few years).

[PHX31]

Isn't the pin already dead?

[Obadno]

Speaking of dead,

A couple of months ago somone was posting stuff about 4 towers being built downtown. One on Van buren Even had a basic rendering.


Any news on that or was he a crack-head?

[Jjs5056]

Originally Posted by PHX31

Isn't the pin already dead?

Likely, yes.

The fact that there's little more action to discuss is reason enough that multiple 500' towers blocking a potential observation tower's view is a non-issue.

The "4 towers" wasn't made up, but none of the projects have taken off. At the time, developers were fishing for tenants and given that most companies that are new to the Valley head east to Tempe/Chandler, they've likely realized the projects aren't financially viable, for now at least. There's only so many companies in midtown to cannibalize, especially given te Camelback Corridor competition.

The project on VB with the rendering - 200 Monroe - was one of the most insulting and offensive proposals I have seen since following this city's development. AFAIK, this one is definitely dead- can someone please confirm that?

What were the other 3? The CityScape/Colliers lot will eventually be filled... In fact, I would bet that'll be the site of our next office tower. When will that be? Maybe when those in charge of Phoenix's economic development start doing their job and grab us a major HQ. The other Colliers site finally started making moves last year, with press releases and renderings, and I have to say I'm surprised they haven't found a hotelier for that pad. That is a PRIME spot and all signs point toward DT needing as many hotel rooms as possible.

https://www.cbremarketplace.com/bcphoenix/

I know RED recently purchased the retail portion of Colliers- did the sale include this parcel? If so, is that good news or bad news? I would think they'd consider the Palomar a success, but they also cut a second hotel (12 Hotels) from the initial proposal, so I'm not sure how bullish they are.

Was the 4th the lot south of the Palomar? Not sure I have ever heard news or proposals for that piece.

[Jjs5056]

Well, went searching and found some answers.

Looks like RED did indeed purchase the entire Colliers development, and has been marketing the sea of vacant suites. A major law firm (Lewis Rocha) is moving in this month, which according to their site (cannibalized from Renaissance building) marks the official launch of these efforts. They plan to bring a similar mix of retail to Colliers as they've done at CityScape, which also includes MORE DIGITAL BILLBOARDS shown in some of the renderings. Phew- just when I was thinking that part of Jefferson was dulling down! They're also teasing us with cross-development events. Can't wait to walk up one set of unnecessary stairs, across an asphalt island 10+ degrees higher than the rest of town and head up another set of unnecessary stairs to enter a raffle before grabbing a bite at Paradise Bakery.

Unfortunately, there's no mention of the empty hotel pad on the site or in any of their marketing materials, but I did out out an email to their rep and will see if they share any info.

http://reddevelopment.com/Post/sections/...enter%20Property%20Snapshot%20120413.pdf

[alexico]

sorry about a probable repost but is going up on 44th and camelback?

old article but any drawings/updates

http://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/news/2012/02/29/popular-44th-camelback-site-in.html?page=all

[PHX31]

I think this was discussed before, but I don't know if it has been mentioned in a while... the City of Phoenix has just issued (Dec 24th) an RFP to "privately develop, finance, construct and
manage a multi-modal, mixed-use, high-rise, transit-oriented development project at the Central Station Transit Station (Central Station) in downtown Phoenix".

There is a pre-proposal conference for this project January 23rd. Sometimes you can get good information at these, I may go just to see what kind of interest there is.
The proposals are due February 24th.

It's great they are moving forward with trying to find a developer to make central station into a high-rise TOD. I hope they find an interested party. Unfortunately these things seem to drag on forever, and I've seen several RFPs issued by the City of Phoenix to develop or redevelop various downtown lots but I can't remember any that actually came to fruition.

[Jjs5056]

Thanks for the heads up. Someone (Hoover?) mentioned the RFP and that they are definitely looking for a mixed use tower with multi-modal transit integrated into the ground floor. But, I didn't know it was moving along so quickly (the planning at least). Where are these located and is anyone interested in going?

Looks like the city will have its hands filled with RFPs this year. Just awarded the winner of the Knipe house development, and they're also planning to issue ones for the old Matador restaurant, and the vacant lot/proposed Aloft St Central/Adams.

[combusean]

There's never an RFP before a developer expresses an interest in a site. The only reason they put out the RFP is so that anybody can bid on the site and come up with a better offer than the original developer. Since downtown Phoenix isn't exactly booming right now for highrises, I can safely assume there is one developer.

The RFP adds substantially to the project credibility because few things actually get built in downtown Phoenix without the city's heavy hand guiding and subsidizing something grown from a behind the scenes, closed doors deal.

[Jjs5056]

Thanks for that clarification. So,the city listed next steps for the Adams St projct as issuing RFPs for Central/Adams lot and the former Matador retaiil spot. How does what you've said apply in those cases? Will they first market the land/spot until one developer bites?

[PHX31]

Originally Posted by combusean

There's never an RFP before a developer expresses an interest in a site. The only reason they put out the RFP is so that anybody can bid on the site and come up with a better offer than the original developer. Since downtown Phoenix isn't exactly booming right now for highrises, I can safely assume there is one developer.

The RFP adds substantially to the project credibility because few things actually get built in downtown Phoenix without the city's heavy hand guiding and subsidizing something grown from a behind the scenes, closed doors deal.

Interesting. Good to know that there has already been interest. I thought the RFP was put out to drum up interest.

I didn't know the Knipe House had any additional movement on it other than Motley Design Group restoring it. And the other RFP aside from that one that I remember seeing was for the little bungalows on 2nd Avenue south of Roosevelt that Motley Design Group restored (did they restore more than one of those on 2nd Avenue?). I saw an RFP on those what seems like years ago and they're still fenced off as far as I know.

[Jjs5056]

Originally Posted by PHX31

Interesting. Good to know that there has already been interest. I thought the RFP was put out to drum up interest.

I didn't know the Knipe House had any additional movement on it other than Motley Design Group restoring it. And the other RFP aside from that one that I remember seeing was for the little bungalows on 2nd Avenue south of Roosevelt that Motley Design Group restored (did they restore more than one of those on 2nd Avenue?). I saw an RFP on those what seems like years ago and they're still fenced off as far as I know.

The Knipe House was owned by Phoenix and the fire insurance allowed them to complete some extensive remodeling; in order to finish the project, private investment was needed. Thus, the city assembled the house and surrounding lots and issued an RFP. They selected a winner but there's been some controversy brewing over the amount of senior/low income involved in the project, which is essential to receiving funding. The project will likely move forward,and these appeals are doing nothing but allowing an entire plot of land and a historic house sit and collect dust, instead of being transformed into the brewery, live/work, market rate, and senior/low income spaces planned.

[PHX31]

What is the current status? Who is the potential developer? And are there any plans out there for us to see? Maybe I missed it earlier.

[PHX31]

Also, do you know if the land assembled for the Knipe House project includes the leg of land that has Roosevelt Street frontage? I know there is a nice little park there that has popped up, but there needs to be a building on Roosevelt for good street front presence.