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  #821  
Old Posted Jan 9, 2014, 5:18 AM
Tetsuo Tetsuo is offline
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Originally Posted by Alex Mackinnon View Post
I can't imagine that it would be cheaper to do both bridges rather than a new 6 lane Patullo and a tunnel connecting through to Hwy 1. The effect would be very similar in removing cars from New West, but all the accesses would line up with existing infrastructure.

More than half of the tunnel could be cut and cover with minimal disruption. Just put a trench on the edge of Queen's Park and up from the Gaglardi interchange. EPB style TBM the rest.
It wouldn't be cheaper but build it one before the other.

Sapperton Bar would take priority of course, then down the line Tree Island.

The tunnel will be effective at removing Canada Way, Kingsway/12 and 10th AVE traffic but what about Front st., Columbia. Not to mention the ecological impact trenching would have on Robert Burnaby Park.

Sapperton Bar and Tree Island combine will cover numerous bases.
1) Satisfy New West by limiting throughtraffic and trucks off local roads as these two bridges would be on the city borders in industrial parts. Improving livability in both Mainland New West and Queensborough.

2) Sapperton Bar brings with it a new rail bridge that would easily link up with existing BNSF Grandview cut line. This rail crossing would spur even more commuter rail links (WCE type line can use this crossing and use either Southern BCR or CNR tracks into Chilliwack, Abbotsford, Langley. Plus this gives Translink more options not having to be dependent on CPR) and of course in addition to the rail track changes brewing in south surrey/white rock can result in an even faster commuter rail link to Seattle and Portland.

3) Tree Island bridge as mentioned before can stand in for the Boundary/NO 8 road crossing that people bring up time to time when discussing Oak/Knight bridge replacements. Such a Boundary/No. 8 Road bridge would result in East Luluisland farm land lost.

And at the end of all this depending on the condition of the existing Patullo (or NW Rail bridge) make it exclusively for bikes and pedestrians if cost effective

The Tree Island and Sapperton Bar crossings would be an effective one-two punch that really covers all the bases. It would satisfy residents of East Burnaby and New West, improving the livability of numerous neighbourhoods in the two cities. It would improve the transportation of goods in the region (both trucks and rail). It would improve public transportation via rail improvements (commuter rail for the valley and US) and buses (the Queenborough bridge traffic slows buses using the bridge connecting to 22nd st. for residents and employees of Richmond and Queensborough, less surface road traffic in East Burnaby and New West = faster buses).

While I do think the GMT needs to be replaced, I don't think it should be done via a 10 lane super bridge, especially since the Oak and Knight bridges won't be able to swallow it. It would be better for the province to pursue a smaller replacement bridge in addition to the above mentioned Tree Island and Sapperton Bar bridges. Can be done in the following order (based on priorities and overall benefits)
1) Sapperton Bar
2) GMT
3) Tree Island
All three crossings six lanes + pedestrians and bikes with Sapperton Bar bridge having a rail deck.
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  #822  
Old Posted Jan 9, 2014, 5:32 AM
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GlassCity GlassCity is offline
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At the same time, like Alex said bridges are economies of scale so you might as well build 10 lanes if you're gonna build eight. They could be converted to bus lanes or LRT lanes later
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  #823  
Old Posted Jan 9, 2014, 4:22 PM
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Alex Mackinnon Alex Mackinnon is offline
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I don't think a train bridge will get integrated with a high level road bridge in the near future. The grades on roads are steeper to limit the length of the ramps required on both ends.

Having a proper rail line on the crossing would dictate having a much larger overall structure which has to be built to a much higher strength to accomidate the rail loads.

My bet is a that a tunnel or a new low level crossing gets built for rail. The tunnel if the railways decide to put some money behind this, the new low level crossing if they just want to kick the can down the road a couple decades.
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  #824  
Old Posted Jan 9, 2014, 5:36 PM
DKaz DKaz is offline
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They should've built a 6 lane + Skytrain bridge when they extended Skytrain to Scott Road Station.
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  #825  
Old Posted Jan 9, 2014, 5:55 PM
Mininari Mininari is offline
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Originally Posted by DKaz View Post
They should've built a 6 lane + Skytrain bridge when they extended Skytrain to Scott Road Station.
Should, coulda, woulda. This would have been too close to the construction of the Alex Fraser Bridge and associated highways, which then, was touted as the solution to everything.

On the topic of this Tree Island Crossing though... I think a really good case could be made for it given the $#@@show that the North end of Queensborough Bridge is (even with the big interchange upgrade).

Here's my take, The Tree Island Crossing could make the best of the existing Highway 91/91A infrastructure by tying into the system where the 91 and 91A split. This would make for one heck of an interesting interchange.
The north end of the bridge could be constructed to simply tie into North Fraser Way (an industrial road), or have multiple exit points to NFW, and terminate at Marine Way. NFW is beneficial because the pavement curves around and links with Boundary Road, thereby dispersing the traffic to Marine Way West, Boundary Rd. North, and Marine Way East. The existing Queensborough bridge would be downgraded to a 50/km hr roadway, ban heavy trucks, and function to serve travellers whose destination actually is New Westminster. The investments made at the North end, and at Howes St. would not go to waste because now the traffic load of 91/91A would be distributed over two bridges, but the key feature would be removing Heavy Truck Traffic from New West. In Theory, truck traffic looking to head west to Hwy 1 from 91A would preferably use (toll-free!), the SFPR.

This of course does nothing to solve the Port Mann toll-dodgers using the Patullo. Closing the Patullo and adding the Sapperton Bar concept (with direct connection between Hwy 1 and the SFPR / KGB) along with the Tree Island would be interesting to model, but there is no way this would happen without at least one of these two new crossings being tolled.

In the spirit of the recent New Jersey Governor 'Lane-closure retribution' Scandal.
"Its time for some traffic problems in New West..."

Last edited by Mininari; Jan 10, 2014 at 7:44 PM.
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  #826  
Old Posted Jan 10, 2014, 7:25 PM
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city-dweller city-dweller is offline
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Originally Posted by Alex Mackinnon View Post
Point #1 - SFPR has no direct connection to PMB and has no contingency for this.

Point #2 - 5000 cars per day is a fart in a hurricane compared with overall bridge traffic. That's 1 lane for 2-3 hours of capacity.

Point #3- My point about Burnaby is that cars would end up diverting through South Burn to the AFB. Nordel would pick a fair bit of slack as well.

Point #4 - A high level pedestrian bridge likely be over $100M on its own. Economies of scale are huge for bridges, hence why the new PMB is 10 lanes instead of 5.
(#1) Agreed. The quote for the Sun was less than ideal as I mentioned. As pointed out in one of the other responses:
Quote:
the grade separation is pretty steep between SFPR and Johnston Hill.
I did allude to the fact that the local traffic will have to use the main arterials ( which you think — as an idea )to connect or go west. It wasn't my intention to call for a direct connection.

(#2) I can't see how big a fart that is without current numbers. Anyway, my point is more that the current road system on the north side can barely take the current traffic, i.e. there is no where to put all the traffic trucks or cars on through New West. So why, spend the extra money to move all the congestion to the north side? Without, the NFPR or any of the suggestions the other commenters made, a larger bridge will just aggravate the traffic issue.

(#3) Agreed.

(#4) Against the regional transit and car politics and funding issues, bike/ped bridges don't stand a chance from the public agencies currently. Most people in bike planning/policy are focusing on inclusion provisions so that new road projects have to include them, which is a good example of economies of scale

At this point, I can honestly say that closing the bridge permanently will not happen (and may not be feasible) unless it has a major structural incident like it did in 2009. As such, I would like to see a new one built at the same capacity with a toll and a rebate discount for those living local to the bridge(rebate = wishful thinking maybe). And sure, throw a bike lane on it and ban trucks.

It appears the main tension is the traffic levels in New West and the regional significance of the route over the PB. Dismissing the local opposition as against "the greater good" (hot fuzz reference anyone?) of the region disregards genuine concern for not just current but future traffic levels in their city. Yes, the failure of the NFPR was a debacle but would you support a new highway next to where you live? By letting Translink implement the process, the province essential gave the people who didn't want it an opportunity to kill the project. And they did. Now there is not sufficient infrastructure to support an expanded PM bridge.

So although I support the regional priorities, I don't think adding insult to injury and building a bigger PB in NW makes sense. They passed on major investment. Spend it elsewhere. We have tons of stuff that people want and/or need. Transit, Massey Crossing, sewage plants, garbage facilities, etc.
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  #827  
Old Posted Jan 10, 2014, 8:01 PM
tybuilding tybuilding is offline
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Place a toll on the Patullo now to pay for its $300 million that is needed to maintain it. That will solve the traffic dodgers. Easy!

I haven't seen this linked yet:

Maps reveal Metro Vancouver’s commuting habits

Suburban residents more likely to head to other cities for work than come into Vancouver
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  #828  
Old Posted Jan 10, 2014, 8:32 PM
DKaz DKaz is offline
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  #829  
Old Posted Jan 10, 2014, 9:19 PM
Mininari Mininari is offline
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Originally Posted by tybuilding View Post
Place a toll on the Patullo now to pay for its $300 million that is needed to maintain it. That will solve the traffic dodgers. Easy!
But THAT would contravene the Province's tolling policy

...But does Translink need to follow that Policy?
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  #830  
Old Posted Jan 10, 2014, 9:22 PM
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Alex Mackinnon Alex Mackinnon is offline
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Originally Posted by city-dweller View Post
( Yes, the failure of the NFPR was a debacle but would you support a new highway next to where you live?
Actually I would. I used to live a block from East end of the Georgia/Dunsmuir viaducts. When the city had it's "ReConnect" competition I put in an entry to the competition.

The entry was to have an expressway style extension put on the viaducts placed less than 2 blocks from my house. The plan had the extension connect up to to Clark in two different locations and optionally towards Hwy 1 near Great Northern Way. All other streets nearby would be exclusively for local traffic and transit after that.

Regarding the fart/hurricane comment, the Pattullo traffic counts are 67,000 cars daily and 3,400 heavy trucks according to wikipedia.
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  #831  
Old Posted Jan 10, 2014, 10:31 PM
GMasterAres GMasterAres is offline
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I mirror much of what has been said. New Westminster is between several juggernaught cities that have regional goods and services moving between them. The truth is they have spent decades with the edict that their roads should remain in the 1920s capable of really only carying horse drawn buggies and now they're paying for that.

All they had to do was OK the NFPR and there would be no issue at all.

Ask anyone along the SFPR in a few months what they really think of it, heck probably now they all love it given it has stopped the backlog of trucks buzzing down River Road right next to their homes at 2kph. That traffic is now barred from those roads and the trucks are on the highway turning neighborhoods that used to be congested and clogged into much nicer quieter places to live.

And heck they didn't lose their views either. New Westminster just needs to get with the program. We aren't a region of 100,000 people with them as the capital city anymore. We are a region of near 2.5 million projected to reach 3.5 million in coming decades. There WILL BE MORE CARS AND TRUCKS!

So the best option is to give them actual roads and highways to drive on. Vancouver decided, much like New West, to stop infrastructure expansion and look what has happened. Industry has been vacating for a few decades now by droves. Even the port of Metro Vancouver terminals there are having issues and needing to do a large infrastructure project just to handle container traffic in addition to migrating a lot of services out to Delta Port and Surrey Fraser.

*shrug*
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  #832  
Old Posted Jan 11, 2014, 12:00 AM
EastVanMark EastVanMark is offline
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Originally Posted by DKaz View Post
They should've built a 6 lane + Skytrain bridge when they extended Skytrain to Scott Road Station.
Yes, but then that would have been the smart thing to do and as we all know there is no room for any of that.

It's far more fun to be like New West and pretend that its the 1800's where cars, trucks, & traffic don't exist.
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  #833  
Old Posted Jan 11, 2014, 12:37 AM
twoNeurons twoNeurons is offline
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Something to think about...

New West is in between cities just like Kerrisdale's Arbutus corridor sits between Downtown and Richmond.

I wonder how much opposition Kerrisdale would have put up if the Canada Line was forced down the Arbutus Line...

Or, when you think about it... the Lion's Gate is between Vancouver and North Van, West Van and Whistler... shouldn't it be expanded?

While we're talking about tolls. If we're going to toll the Patullo for $300M maintenance, then shouldn't we toll the Lion's Gate... Didn't it cost like $300M for the bridge deck improvements a few years ago?
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  #834  
Old Posted Jan 11, 2014, 12:45 AM
Pinion Pinion is offline
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Originally Posted by twoNeurons View Post
Something to think about...
While we're talking about tolls. If we're going to toll the Patullo for $300M maintenance, then shouldn't we toll the Lion's Gate... Didn't it cost like $300M for the bridge deck improvements a few years ago?
$86.5 million. I'd happily have paid for tolls for six lanes through to Georgia st, but keeping it at three lanes was enough of a kick in the crotch as it was.

And of course Lions Gate was already tolled in the past.
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  #835  
Old Posted Jan 11, 2014, 12:50 AM
officedweller officedweller is offline
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Originally Posted by twoNeurons View Post
Something to think about...

New West is in between cities just like Kerrisdale's Arbutus corridor sits between Downtown and Richmond.

...

Or, when you think about it... the Lion's Gate is between Vancouver and North Van, West Van and Whistler... shouldn't it be expanded?

While we're talking about tolls. If we're going to toll the Patullo for $300M maintenance, then shouldn't we toll the Lion's Gate... Didn't it cost like $300M for the bridge deck improvements a few years ago?
The analogy is apt, because the City of Vancouver helped prevent expansion of the Lion's Gate because it didn't want more traffic into the West End (and the North Shore did not want tolls).
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  #836  
Old Posted Jan 11, 2014, 12:54 AM
EastVanMark EastVanMark is offline
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Originally Posted by twoNeurons View Post
Something to think about...

New West is in between cities just like Kerrisdale's Arbutus corridor sits between Downtown and Richmond.

I wonder how much opposition Kerrisdale would have put up if the Canada Line was forced down the Arbutus Line...

Or, when you think about it... the Lion's Gate is between Vancouver and North Van, West Van and Whistler... shouldn't it be expanded?

While we're talking about tolls. If we're going to toll the Patullo for $300M maintenance, then shouldn't we toll the Lion's Gate... Didn't it cost like $300M for the bridge deck improvements a few years ago?
All good examples of how nimbyism has stifled movement in our region.

Arbutus Line has/is well suited for rapid transit development for a generation now, but stupid nimbys keeps it the abandoned rail line we all know and love. ( I believe the potential loss of some home grown potatoes was a problem there).

The Lions Gate decision was a disaster and did absolutely nothing to solve travel problems along that route despite the fact that numerous agencies for multiple provincial govts called for drastic action. (Thanks to the nimbys and stupid councils on both sides of the water.)
Being among that illustrious "creme de la creme" group is not something to exactly be proud of.

But somebody needs to step in **cough** Provincial Govt **cough** and force New West's hand here and end this childish, unreasonable tantrum they are throwing

Last edited by EastVanMark; Jan 11, 2014 at 1:36 AM.
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  #837  
Old Posted Jan 13, 2014, 2:40 AM
tybuilding tybuilding is offline
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Originally Posted by EastVanMark View Post
All good examples of how nimbyism has stifled movement in our region.

Arbutus Line has/is well suited for rapid transit development for a generation now, but stupid nimbys keeps it the abandoned rail line we all know and love. ( I believe the potential loss of some home grown potatoes was a problem there).

The Lions Gate decision was a disaster and did absolutely nothing to solve travel problems along that route despite the fact that numerous agencies for multiple provincial govts called for drastic action. (Thanks to the nimbys and stupid councils on both sides of the water.)
Being among that illustrious "creme de la creme" group is not something to exactly be proud of.

But somebody needs to step in **cough** Provincial Govt **cough** and force New West's hand here and end this childish, unreasonable tantrum they are throwing
What traffic problems? Lions Gate isn't that congested, at least in rush hour direction. Not like the other bridges around.
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  #838  
Old Posted Jan 13, 2014, 7:45 AM
Pinion Pinion is offline
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What traffic problems? Lions Gate isn't that congested, at least in rush hour direction. Not like the other bridges around.
Only someone who doesn't live on the north shore would say this. It's fine at rush hour from the south, yes, because they get two lanes.
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  #839  
Old Posted Jan 14, 2014, 11:26 PM
EastVanMark EastVanMark is offline
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What traffic problems? Lions Gate isn't that congested, at least in rush hour direction. Not like the other bridges around.
Ya, depends on what definition of "not that congested" is. If waiting 6 light changes in West Van by Park Royal to get on the bridge is "not that congested." The situation on Georgia St in Vancouver is not much better during daytime hours. As I mentioned, several studies have been done across decades by three seperate provincial governments and they all concluded the route was congested and a new or drastically altered bridge or tunnel was needed.
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  #840  
Old Posted Jan 16, 2014, 10:26 PM
GMasterAres GMasterAres is offline
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Originally Posted by Tetsuo View Post
Get the rail companies to chip in to add a rail deck on a Sapperton Bar crossing.

The limited road options for traffic is impacting livability in New West/East bby. Kingsway, 10th ave, Canada Way and Mcbride are a mess and without significant road improvements it wouldn't be wise to replace the Patullo in its current spot with an expanded crossing.

It would be nice to see them address the mess that is truck loving Front St. (tunnel under Royal? Pipe dream)

Ideal scenario would be Tree island Queensboro replacing bridge and a Sapperton Bar bridge replacing both the Patullo and existing rail crossing.
Or maybe building the NFPR would have been an idea.. you know a dedicated highway for truck traffic along the river that would take trucks off of local residential roads? Kind of like this thing we just finished in the region called the SFPR but on the North Side.

You reap what you sow.
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