[Halifax] Nova Centre | 65-58-58 m | 16-15-14 fl | Completed

[Dmajackson]

I think the pedway system should be LIMITED within Downtown.

Where I live here in Calgary is very close to the extensive Plus 15 system which is nice during the extreme cold snaps but otherwise I prefer fresh-air. Halifax doesn't get that many cold snap days during the winter and it experiences warmer days for a longer period of time. IMO Halifax's pedway system should be limited by not allowing new retail with direct access to it except in Scotia Square. This will keep retail street-facing and not affect the vibrancy of downtown. In addition any future extensions should be focused in the east-west direction where steep grade changes lower interaction between the waterfront and "upper downtown".

Where I do think expansion of the Downtown Halifax Link is okay would be from TD - RBC - BMO - Ferry Terminal. Also from the Brunswick Street Towers to Citadel Hotel Block to a future redevelopment of HRP HQ where there would be a main entrance on Gottingen Street. Other than these two areas I don't think expansion is needed or a good idea.

In lieu of expanding the DHL I would focus on improving the pedestrian experience on downtown sidewalks. Existing policy in HRMxD is a great step towards achieving this goal but in addition to canopies, street trees, and wider sidewalks I would aim at getting heated sidewalks.

[ns_kid]

Originally Posted by Dmajackson

I think the pedway system should be LIMITED within Downtown.

Where I live here in Calgary is very close to the extensive Plus 15 system which is nice during the extreme cold snaps but otherwise I prefer fresh-air. Halifax doesn't get that many cold snap days during the winter and it experiences warmer days for a longer period of time.

You're quite right about the temperatures, but overlook the fact that Halifax annually averages 162 days of precipitation (44% of the year ) and 1468 millimetres of rain and snow (behind only St. John's and Abbotsford). That compares to Calgary's 419 millimetres over 112 days.

Source: Environment Canada, Canadian Climate Normals.

[counterfactual]

Originally Posted by Dmajackson

I think the pedway system should be LIMITED within Downtown.

Where I live here in Calgary is very close to the extensive Plus 15 system which is nice during the extreme cold snaps but otherwise I prefer fresh-air. Halifax doesn't get that many cold snap days during the winter and it experiences warmer days for a longer period of time. IMO Halifax's pedway system should be limited by not allowing new retail with direct access to it except in Scotia Square. This will keep retail street-facing and not affect the vibrancy of downtown. In addition any future extensions should be focused in the east-west direction where steep grade changes lower interaction between the waterfront and "upper downtown".

Where I do think expansion of the Downtown Halifax Link is okay would be from TD - RBC - BMO - Ferry Terminal. Also from the Brunswick Street Towers to Citadel Hotel Block to a future redevelopment of HRP HQ where there would be a main entrance on Gottingen Street. Other than these two areas I don't think expansion is needed or a good idea.

In lieu of expanding the DHL I would focus on improving the pedestrian experience on downtown sidewalks. Existing policy in HRMxD is a great step towards achieving this goal but in addition to canopies, street trees, and wider sidewalks I would aim at getting heated sidewalks.

Nicely put. I was also thinking that the issue about a pedway, is that it takes people off the street and streetfront, when, in fact, we want to encourage more foot traffic to breathe more life into our downtown. Do we need to divert more people from the street to isolated tunnels running over streets?

It's a balance. We need to be smart about it.

[Phalanx]

Out of curiosity, are there any studies or statistics that cover the impact of a tunnel/pedway system on businesses/street life?

The way I see it, the people using the pedway/tunnels usually aren't the people that are going out for a stroll or window shopping in the first place. It's about getting from point A to point B in an efficient and/or sheltered manner.

[counterfactual]

Originally Posted by Phalanx

Out of curiosity, are there any studies or statistics that cover the impact of a tunnel/pedway system on businesses/street life?

The way I see it, the people using the pedway/tunnels usually aren't the people that are going out for a stroll or window shopping in the first place. It's about getting from point A to point B in an efficient and/or sheltered manner.

Not sure if that is borne out by market research. I don't have a study at my finger tips, but don't think you can divide consumers like that. I think market research suggests that those Point A to Point B people might also be reliable for an extra purchase point or two, if they are steered towards small business/store fronts, and not closed off from them in tunnels or pedways.

There has been a strong debate in Edmonton on this, with people suggesting that the pedway in Edmonton basically killled downtown and "vibrant" streets.

Here's the piece:


"Pedways killing street ambience: If you want to make an immediate and positive change to Edmonton's downtown, close the pedways."

http://www.canada.com/edmontonjournal/columnists/story.html?id=21c01ab7-c819-44a2-8a9e-967fb29c7ac2

[counterfactual]

Originally Posted by counterfactual

Not sure if that is borne out by market research. I don't have a study at my finger tips, but don't think you can divide consumers like that. I think market research suggests that those Point A to Point B people might also be reliable for an extra purchase point or two, if they are steered towards small business/store fronts, and not closed off from them in tunnels or pedways.

There has been a strong debate in Edmonton on this, with people suggesting that the pedway in Edmonton basically killled downtown and "vibrant" streets.

Here's the piece:


"Pedways killing street ambience: If you want to make an immediate and positive change to Edmonton's downtown, close the pedways."

http://www.canada.com/edmontonjournal/columnists/story.html?id=21c01ab7-c819-44a2-8a9e-967fb29c7ac2

By the way, I quite like the suggestion in that piece for Winter markets. Why not something like that around Christmas in Grand Parade?

[Phalanx]

The counter argument to Edmonton would be Montreal, which has (as far as I can recall) the most extensive tunnel/pedway system in the world, and still has a vibrant streetlife (Toronto can also be included in here, of course). And given how well connected, and how well supplied it is in terms of attractions and shopping, would be far more of a 'threat' than Halifax's extremely utilitarian network. Give people a reason to go out and they will.

[counterfactual]

Originally Posted by Phalanx

The counter argument to Edmonton would be Montreal, which has (as far as I can recall) the most extensive tunnel/pedway system in the world, and still has a vibrant streetlife (Toronto can also be included in here, of course). And given how well connected, and how well supplied it is in terms of attractions and shopping, would be far more of a 'threat' than Halifax's extremely utilitarian network. Give people a reason to go out and they will.

True, but in terms of our populations and the challenges we face downtown, we are much more comparable to Edmonton than Montreal or Toronto. The latter two have the population densities and critical mass of business downtown that some pedways make not have any impact. Not the same, obviously, for Edmonton. Perhaps not so for Halifax too.

[someone123]

First Canadian Place in Toronto has about half as many people working in it as all of downtown Halifax. Toronto also has a high-capacity subway system to bring in people. It is literally to the point where they would not fit on the sidewalks if the underground were taken out.

I think the worst aspect of the pedways is that they encourage privatization of the downtown and encourage developers to shift foot traffic into mall-like environments while ignoring the public realm. Scotia Square is a prime example of this; it is basically a mall with a parking garage attached, and it has no storefronts along Barrington Street. It has arguably had a negative impact on the street, even though it is probably quite successful from a financial standpoint.

I wouldn't call for there to be zero pedways but they have to be dealt with carefully. The northern end of the downtown that has most (all?) of the pedways is incidentally the worst from a connectivity and pedestrian traffic standpoint.

[counterfactual]

Originally Posted by someone123

First Canadian Place in Toronto has about half as many people working in it as all of downtown Halifax. Toronto also has a high-capacity subway system to bring in people. It is literally to the point where they would not fit on the sidewalks if the underground were taken out.

I think the worst aspect of the pedways is that they encourage privatization of the downtown and encourage developers to shift foot traffic into mall-like environments while ignoring the public realm. Scotia Square is a prime example of this; it is basically a mall with a parking garage attached, and it has no storefronts along Barrington Street. It has arguably had a negative impact on the street, even though it is probably quite successful from a financial standpoint.

I wouldn't call for there to be zero pedways but they have to be dealt with carefully. The northern end of the downtown that has most (all?) of the pedways is incidentally the worst from a connectivity and pedestrian traffic standpoint.

Very true. The pedways, at least the ones we have, seems to be oriented around a certain kind of design philosophy, where the last concern is walkability and connectivity on public streets.

I would say they are most common on the northern end of Barrington as a symptom of bad urban planning and design in that area. Scotia Square, I think, is a big part of that problem, basically sucking any potential life out of the norther part of Barrington... for what? A big ugly soulless concrete wall, with some air ventilators. Naturally, you need pedways around there, because with all the roads, concrete walls, and weird parking lots, designers have erected in the path of pedestrians (ie try walking down from Barrington/Duke bus stop to Hollis, outside the pedways, that is). Once you design crappy streetscapes, who wouldn't want to walk over them in a pedway?

As for inside Scotia Square, I don't know how successful it is, but I find it's a pretty depressing place even as far as malls go. And nothing is open a speck past 5pm. That place hallows out into a deadly silent cave. Isn't Scotia Square getting an upgrade? Sadly, I think I remember Waye Mason saying that none of the "facial lifts" for the outside of Scotia Square will involve knocking down, or even altering, the pointless ugly concrete wall from Duke/Barrington to the bus stops...

So, on second thought, let's leave the pedways off the Nova Centre.

[Empire]

Originally Posted by counterfactual

Very true. The pedways, at least the ones we have, seems to be oriented around a certain kind of design philosophy, where the last concern is walkability and connectivity on public streets.

I would say they are most common on the northern end of Barrington as a symptom of bad urban planning and design in that area. Scotia Square, I think, is a big part of that problem, basically sucking any potential life out of the norther part of Barrington... for what? A big ugly soulless concrete wall, with some air ventilators. Naturally, you need pedways around there, because with all the roads, concrete walls, and weird parking lots, designers have erected in the path of pedestrians (ie try walking down from Barrington/Duke bus stop to Hollis, outside the pedways, that is). Once you design crappy streetscapes, who wouldn't want to walk over them in a pedway?

As for inside Scotia Square, I don't know how successful it is, but I find it's a pretty depressing place even as far as malls go. And nothing is open a speck past 5pm. That place hallows out into a deadly silent cave. Isn't Scotia Square getting an upgrade? Sadly, I think I remember Waye Mason saying that none of the "facial lifts" for the outside of Scotia Square will involve knocking down, or even altering, the pointless ugly concrete wall from Duke/Barrington to the bus stops...

So, on second thought, let's leave the pedways off the Nova Centre.

Pedways can serve a useful purpose in a city like Halifax. There are many days in downtown Halifax when walking at street level is unappealing. We get a lot of horizontal rain storms, high winds as well as a mix of sleet rain and snow. When there is a lot of snow, sidewalks become a challenge for many with high banks and icy sidewalks at a steep grade. Sidewalks are narrow and there is limited potential to widen them in most cases.

There is a steady stream of people using the pedway from Purdy's Wharf, Casino and the Marriott to the rest of downtown. In this case people are avoiding an extremely poor street level pedestrian experience. There is no crosswalk from Purdy's / Marriott to downtown until you reach Duke street and then it is poorly designed or marked. Pedways could bring people out of their offices at noon on a nasty day that might otherwise stay put.

Purdy's Link:
https://maps.google.com/maps?q=halifax&h...fRrTpTB9jaHTqmF8fzpW7A&cbp=12,98.59,,0,0

No marked crosswalk 1 - Upper Water:
https://maps.google.com/maps?q=halifax&h...kh72v-M-_xcHLPU0EL_dfg&cbp=12,146.4,,0,0

No marked crosswalk 2: - Hollis
https://maps.google.com/maps?q=halifax&h...7tL2Z7XUfelpHSEIw&cbp=12,146.4,,0,0&z=19

Non-existent crosswalks 3 - Duke & Hollis:
https://maps.google.com/maps?q=halifax&h...HBTPxZIczDtg&cbp=12,159.31,,0,15.43&z=19

Non-existent crosswalks 4 - Duke & Lower Water:
https://maps.google.com/maps?q=halifax&h...vgo1N4UPzLNGKWB0aTQ&cbp=12,146.4,,0,22.5

Good shot of Purdy's:
https://maps.google.com/maps?q=halifax&h...2&cbp=12,0,,0,0&z=17&photoid=po-91367614

[ns_kid]

Originally Posted by someone123

I think the worst aspect of the pedways is that they encourage privatization of the downtown and encourage developers to shift foot traffic into mall-like environments while ignoring the public realm.

I recognize the validity of this theory but can't help but reflect that, if it were necessarily true, Scotia Square and Barrington Place would be thriving retail environments. Of course the opposite is true. Barrington Place has thrown in the towel and Scotia Square is a shadow of a mall today; Purdy's Wharf has never had a significant retail component. The Maritime Centre mall has virtually disappeared and Park Lane is also diminished; neither are link-connected. The fact is, no indoor mall has truly succeeded in downtown Halifax, pedway or no pedway.

I see very little evidence that Halifax's Downtown Link has had a significant impact on street-level business and even less that it has succeeded in "mall-ing the downtown". I'd repeat my earlier observation that a significant variable in the comparison of Halifax with Calgary and Edmonton is year-round precipitation; another is the severe grade of major east-west thoroughfares.

[Phalanx]

Originally Posted by someone123

First Canadian Place in Toronto has about half as many people working in it as all of downtown Halifax. Toronto also has a high-capacity subway system to bring in people. It is literally to the point where they would not fit on the sidewalks if the underground were taken out.

I'm aware that we're dealing with a vastly different scale in terms of population, but we're also talking about a vastly different scale in terms of tunnel/pedway development. If you're going to look at the scale of one, you have to look at the scale of the other, and the Halifax network is by no means overdeveloped.

I think the worst aspect of the pedways is that they encourage privatization of the downtown and encourage developers to shift foot traffic into mall-like environments while ignoring the public realm. Scotia Square is a prime example of this; it is basically a mall with a parking garage attached, and it has no storefronts along Barrington Street. It has arguably had a negative impact on the street, even though it is probably quite successful from a financial standpoint.

I wouldn't call for there to be zero pedways but they have to be dealt with carefully. The northern end of the downtown that has most (all?) of the pedways is incidentally the worst from a connectivity and pedestrian traffic standpoint.

Like I said above, give people a reason to go out, and they'll go out. This isn't the fault of the existing pedway or tunnel system, it's the result of poor planning/development. The two options can co-exist.

[counterfactual]

Originally Posted by ns_kid

I recognize the validity of this theory but can't help but reflect that, if it were necessarily true, Scotia Square and Barrington Place would be thriving retail environments. Of course the opposite is true. Barrington Place has thrown in the towel and Scotia Square is a shadow of a mall today; Purdy's Wharf has never had a significant retail component. The Maritime Centre mall has virtually disappeared and Park Lane is also diminished; neither are link-connected. The fact is, no indoor mall has truly succeeded in downtown Halifax, pedway or no pedway.

I see very little evidence that Halifax's Downtown Link has had a significant impact on street-level business and even less that it has succeeded in "mall-ing the downtown". I'd repeat my earlier observation that a significant variable in the comparison of Halifax with Calgary and Edmonton is year-round precipitation; another is the severe grade of major east-west thoroughfares.

I think there are a plethora of reasons why Scotia Square, Barrington Place, and Maritime Centre, etc, have all failed as indoor retail spaces.

But I don't think we need to create any more challenges for downtown small business, especially streetfront business, than they already face in competing with suburban big box.

Again, I'm not wholeheartedly against pedways, I just think we shouldn't just put them everywhere as a matter of course.

FWIW, I wouldn't put Park Lane into the same category as some of the aforementioned failed spaces; it's a little glum in there, but I think it just needs some proper investment for a facelift and a landlord willing to go out and work hard to score some proper tenants, the way the Halifax Shopping Center does.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by counterfactual

FWIW, I wouldn't put Park Lane into the same category as some of the aforementioned failed spaces; it's a little glum in there, but I think it just needs some proper investment for a facelift and a landlord willing to go out and work hard to score some proper tenants, the way the Halifax Shopping Center does.

When it was brand new it was essentially full of tenants upon opening, on two levels. Nobody went in there after the first few weeks it seemed, or if they did, they didn't buy anything. I lived in the area and cannot totally explain it. I bought things there because it was a short walk away, but I suspect that people from outside the neighborhood did not go there as a destination. Perhaps the well-known Haligonian aversion to parking garages and paying to park in them caused that. I don't know. It seems they also had great trouble drawing in the many pedestrians who went by the front doors every day. It's a shame, because it was a really nice mall when it first opened, and had some really nice shops that met their doom.

[counterfactual]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

When it was brand new it was essentially full of tenants upon opening, on two levels. Nobody went in there after the first few weeks it seemed, or if they did, they didn't buy anything. I lived in the area and cannot totally explain it. I bought things there because it was a short walk away, but I suspect that people from outside the neighborhood did not go there as a destination. Perhaps the well-known Haligonian aversion to parking garages and paying to park in them caused that. I don't know. It seems they also had great trouble drawing in the many pedestrians who went by the front doors every day. It's a shame, because it was a really nice mall when it first opened, and had some really nice shops that met their doom.

Your experience/thoughts don't sound too different from what others have said to me (and my own experience with the place). Agree about the aversion to parking garages/paying to park. Often when Haligonians say "there's nowhere to park!" what they really mean, is nowhere *free*.

I think for a place like Park Lane to raise its game to the next level, is it needs to land an big name anchor tenant. I don't think Park Lane has ever done that (I could be wrong-- if someone could correct me). Once you get a big tenant that will attract people to come, they'll visit other shops as a matter of course, or there's at least a better chance. And other retailers will want to be where the anchor tenant already is.

Right now, I don't think Park Lane is in a condition to attract a "hip" or big name tenant until it takes on some interior improvements (possibly exterior too). It looks a bit 1980s in there and often seems dim and glum.

Park Lane reminds me of the way Halifax Shopping Center looked a few years back. Since then, they've done some major renovations, really brightened up the place, and also aggressively courted big name anchor clients like Apple, Sephora, H&M, Victoria's Secret, etc. Has really turned things around.

For Park Lane: A little TLC (ie major renovations), aggressively court big anchor client(s), and cross fingers.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by ns_kid

I recognize the validity of this theory but can't help but reflect that, if it were necessarily true, Scotia Square and Barrington Place would be thriving retail environments. Of course the opposite is true. ... I see very little evidence that Halifax's Downtown Link has had a significant impact on street-level business and even less that it has succeeded in "mall-ing the downtown".

My argument was simply that pedways can harm storefront retail. I'm not sure the present-day failure of the downtown mini-malls says much either way about that. Thriving storefronts downtown next to pedways would be counter-evidence but we haven't seen that (I wish this were the case).

I would argue though that the more interesting parts of downtown tend to be farther away from the pedways and larger-footprint office developments. The northern end of the downtown around Cogswell is generally pretty awful, and I suspect the pedways there are part symptom (how else would you get over the heavy traffic barreling along Cogswell?) and part cause.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by counterfactual

Agree about the aversion to parking garages/paying to park. Often when Haligonians say "there's nowhere to park!" what they really mean, is nowhere *free*.

I love this about Halifax. Whenever I go downtown on evenings and weekends I head straight for the parking garages because I know there will always be plenty of parking in them. Yep, well worth the 5 bucks or whatever to not circle the 1-way streets for a half hour to wedge my car into a spot only to find that a truck has sideswiped it when I come back (this has happened to me).

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Empire

Pedways can serve a useful purpose in a city like Halifax. There are many days in downtown Halifax when walking at street level is unappealing. We get a lot of horizontal rain storms, high winds as well as a mix of sleet rain and snow. When there is a lot of snow, sidewalks become a challenge for many with high banks and icy sidewalks at a steep grade. Sidewalks are narrow and there is limited potential to widen them in most cases.

There is a steady stream of people using the pedway from Purdy's Wharf, Casino and the Marriott to the rest of downtown. In this case people are avoiding an extremely poor street level pedestrian experience. There is no crosswalk from Purdy's / Marriott to downtown until you reach Duke street and then it is poorly designed or marked. Pedways could bring people out of their offices at noon on a nasty day that might otherwise stay put.

Agree with this. Typically I will use the pedways to get from A to B in nasty weather (which we have a lot of). It's also a quick way to get from the waterfront to the Metro Centre without having to deal with traffic and challenging street crossings (BTW, a convenient tip when attending large events at the Metro Centre is to park at Purdy's wharf parkade and make your way through the pedways/tunnels to the MC - you avoid the throngs of people sparring for parking spaces and avoid the Scotia Square traffic jam after the event. Might cost you an extra $3, but well worth it).

However, on nice days I think most Haligonians are more likely to get outside and walk the streets to enjoy the (rare) nice weather, even if a less direct route takes a few more minutes.

[counterfactual]

Originally Posted by Empire

Pedways can serve a useful purpose in a city like Halifax. There are many days in downtown Halifax when walking at street level is unappealing. We get a lot of horizontal rain storms, high winds as well as a mix of sleet rain and snow. When there is a lot of snow, sidewalks become a challenge for many with high banks and icy sidewalks at a steep grade. Sidewalks are narrow and there is limited potential to widen them in most cases.

There is a steady stream of people using the pedway from Purdy's Wharf, Casino and the Marriott to the rest of downtown. In this case people are avoiding an extremely poor street level pedestrian experience. There is no crosswalk from Purdy's / Marriott to downtown until you reach Duke street and then it is poorly designed or marked. Pedways could bring people out of their offices at noon on a nasty day that might otherwise stay put.

I agree that they play a purpose where street level walking is "unappealing", especially down around Purdy's/Marriott.

But that's largely a product of the Cogswell Exchange, whose days are numbered, thankfully. In a not too distant future, Cogswell will be smashed, and we might actually end up with some properly planned streetscapes around that area, especially as more residential development moves in (a natural product of Cogswell going).

Do we want to pedway policy shaped for how our streets look today? Or how they will look tomorrow? Perhaps in 10-15 years, we will be wondering why nobody is enjoying the lovely walking experience and instead still tramping through cold pedways...