The Official Saint John, NB Project Thread

[thefishingnut]

Originally Posted by sjuser23

So what's the answer?

Let's imagine there were no current towns/City in SJ region, how would you draw the lines? Should there be lines? What about taxation? How do design a system with responsible and equitable taxation keeping in mind some do receive more services but other services such as hospitals, schools and such are also supported from property tax revenue? What about cost sharing for regional facilities? Industry? Do we look at an economic region as a whole? how do we promote responsible planning?

Interesting question to think about from the ground up, assuming no limits, no preconceptions, just recognizing that taxation is inevitable, how do we design it to be fair and responsible?

The answer to that sounds like more of a thesis, than a post!

Personally I think there is far too much government, and too many of the government entities too self serving and doing stupid insular stuff. Tax breaks for Canaport, an empty parking garage, a new police station in a city with an office occupancy issue, a Colonel Nase parkway, until recently huge pension issues unaddressed, an ill-sized Qplex, a proposed Rothesay Rplex (my name). Consolidate the heck out of it, close down all the little fiefdoms, put in place a graduated tax system based on the services people get and how far they are from things like fire stations. First round of amalgamations were good, but they didn't go far enough, and another wave should be done. But then, don't spend a crapload of money trying to get the same services to everyone. A lot of people aren't going to be happy about it, but it's the right thing to do IMO.

[MountPleasant]

Let's keep this debate rolling, but just as a quick aside, anyone hear on CBC the motion to look at RCMP for SJ?

[thefishingnut]

Originally Posted by MountPleasant

Let's keep this debate rolling, but just as a quick aside, anyone here on CBC the motion to look at RCMP for SJ?

If this is cheaper, I would be for it.

I think radical change has to take place in GSJ— as Coun. David Merrithew alluded to today, the City literally can no longer sustain the current situation. The City just can't generate enough revenue.

An RCMP officer makes more than a SJ officer - unless there are significant headquarters savings to be achieved, it would only be cheaper because there would be fewer cops on the street. That's pretty easy to achieve, just reduce the budget and attrition out some officers. This comes at a safety cost, but there comes a point where we can't afford things and cutbacks need to be made. To me, outsourcing is a cop out (ha ha) from dealing with the cost issue themselves and taking responsibility for doing it.

[MonctonRad]

In Moncton, we have the regional Codiac RCMP force, covering Moncton, Riverview and Dieppe. Frank McKenna forced this change on us when we hosted the Francophonie Summit about a dozen years ago. I guess it was felt necessary for security reasons with so many heads of state in town.

The regional RCMP service is very professional but is far more expensive than a traditional municipal force. The budget is much higher and we have fewer officers on patrol than we did before the change.

You wouldn't save any money by having a regional RCMP force; sorry……..

[OliverD]

Originally Posted by sjuser23

I've heard this argument many times about the loss of services, using less and paying less when living outside a city. But this also assumes you never use the services a city provides. Cultural activites, the roads, the shopping etc... and also the support a City gives to industry, hospitals, schools etc.. that an LSD does not. It's entirely about paying for what you use and the recognition that you use more than just want is in your LSD. Does it cost less to have police and fire ready to respond if you live closer to a station rather than farther away? Isn't the cost really about being there when needed, not about response time?

Take a minute to think about the commuters into a City versus those who commute from it. Every commuter is taking advantage of infrastructure and support paid for by a taxpayer living in the City. The industries that are the economic drivers are supported by City taxpayers but the beneficiaries are largely those who live outside the city in entirely other parts of the Province thanks to our equalization program that drains the tax dollars away. For example, the Cities build the roads into industrial parks which in turn employ people who can then choose to pay property taxes to another municipality and they pay income to the province. City sees no benefit. Also the vast majority of property tax paid by the industry is also kept by the province, yet the City supports the infrastructure.

Look at this in an abstract manner and we have an imaginary line between two neighbours, one lives in Fredericton, the other New Maryland but their houses are 100 feet apart, assessed the same and they work in the same place, kids go to same school, enjoy the same medicare, education, recreation. Basically consume the same goods, shop in the same places, use the same government services but one pays far less property tax because the one living inside the City boundaries is expected to support the industry which drives the economy while the other does not. What is the natural response? The one should move outside the City but in the end where does that leave us? At the breaking point we've now reached in NB!

You need to make a distinction between services provided by the municipality and those provided by private business – they are not even close to the same thing. When a rural resident shops in a city, they are indirectly contributing to the municipality's coffers. Most businesses in NB's cities would consider their market area to include surrounding towns and LSDs (and vice versa). Most rural residents living in close proximity to a city are still generating a lot of economic activity in that city. Without the support of the people living in the surrounding areas, the cities would significantly smaller tax bases. Saying that the city "sees no benefit" is simply not accurate.

[MountPleasant]

Interesting. I think we must redraw SJ boundaries— exclude the rural areas within the limits and include KV and GB— this seems to be the only viable way to move forward. For the betterment of the entire province.

[thefishingnut]

Originally Posted by MountPleasant

Interesting. I think we must redraw SJ boundaries— exclude the rural areas within the limits and include KV and GB— this seems to be the only viable way to move forward. For the betterment of the entire province.

Why would you exclude the rural areas currently within the city boundary?

[MountPleasant]

Originally Posted by thefishingnut

Why would you exclude the rural areas currently within the city boundary?

Yes, exactly. The city boundaries currently span vastly eastward, aside from canaport these areas are empty. Same idea with areas of the far west side

A redrawn city boundary would not be as symmetrical as it is now of course. But as I look on Google Maps, it shows that it would not be as farfetched as it may seem.

[thefishingnut]

Originally Posted by MountPleasant

Yes, exactly. The city boundaries currently span vastly eastward, aside from canaport these areas are empty. Same idea with areas of the far west side

A redrawn city boundary would not be as symmetrical as it is now of course. But as I look on Google Maps, it shows that it would not be as farfetched as it may seem.

I was asking why you would exclude them. As it is now, the city can manage and gain taxes on whatever development does take place, or prevent development from taking place. And in some cases the wider borders are used in order to protect the watershed that is used for drinking water. If the space is empty now, the city isn't spending much on servicing it, and will be collecting a little bit of tax revenue. If the city releases a bunch of land out Red Head (as an example), what is to stop a developer from building a subdivision, or Irving to build a new refinery just outside city boundary?

[MountPleasant]

Originally Posted by thefishingnut

I was asking why you would exclude them. As it is now, the city can manage and gain taxes on whatever development does take place, or prevent development from taking place. And in some cases the wider borders are used in order to protect the watershed that is used for drinking water. If the space is empty now, the city isn't spending much on servicing it, and will be collecting a little bit of tax revenue. If the city releases a bunch of land out Red Head (as an example), what is to stop a developer from building a subdivision, or Irving to build a new refinery just outside city boundary?

Well you could say the same thing now. What is stopping anyone from building anything outside city limits?

Also I am actually against the idea of RCMP in SJ.

[DreDay]

Originally Posted by thefishingnut

The answer to that sounds like more of a thesis, than a post!

Personally I think there is far too much government, and too many of the government entities too self serving and doing stupid insular stuff. Tax breaks for Canaport, an empty parking garage, a new police station in a city with an office occupancy issue, a Colonel Nase parkway, until recently huge pension issues unaddressed, an ill-sized Qplex, a proposed Rothesay Rplex (my name). Consolidate the heck out of it, close down all the little fiefdoms, put in place a graduated tax system based on the services people get and how far they are from things like fire stations. First round of amalgamations were good, but they didn't go far enough, and another wave should be done. But then, don't spend a crapload of money trying to get the same services to everyone. A lot of people aren't going to be happy about it, but it's the right thing to do IMO.

I forgot about that thing.. What's going on with it?

[thefishingnut]

Originally Posted by DreDay

I forgot about that thing.. What's going on with it?

Not much other than apparently a 3% occupancy.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-brunswick/19m-saint-john-parking-garage-97-empty-1.2472447

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by thefishingnut

Personally I think there is far too much government, and too many of the government entities too self serving and doing stupid insular stuff. Tax breaks for Canaport, an empty parking garage, a new police station in a city with an office occupancy issue, a Colonel Nase parkway, until recently huge pension issues unaddressed, an ill-sized Qplex, a proposed Rothesay Rplex (my name). Consolidate the heck out of it, close down all the little fiefdoms, put in place a graduated tax system based on the services people get and how far they are from things like fire stations. First round of amalgamations were good, but they didn't go far enough, and another wave should be done. But then, don't spend a crapload of money trying to get the same services to everyone. A lot of people aren't going to be happy about it, but it's the right thing to do IMO.

If you're willing to force amalgamations on people in outlying areas who will hate you for the remainder of their lives then sure, that's an easy suggestion. That's the issue with many in this province, particularly in government; they don't want to make the big decisions and have people dislike them as a consequence. I see no problem amalgamating the region, but there's about 60,000 in the outlying areas that would have my head in a heartbeat, not including many in the city as well. I wish we would look at areas who have attempted this (Halifax) and work to improve on their mistakes, and to emulate their successes.

In terms of all of the municipal items you listed: those were completed by completely separate municipal councils in all of the local municipalities and, to add, by numerous different iterations of the SJ city council. This current council did not approve of Canaport taxes, or Peel Plaza, or the parking garage. Frankly, I think this council has done a tremendous job given their resources. There is still much work to be done but they've been doing a good job thus far, and moving forward cooperation with the provincial and federal governments will go a long way to bettering the city.

The unfortunate thing is that the voting electorate very rarely realizes that past councils damage current council. All people see is government as a giant, menacing bubble.

[MountPleasant]

'Cooperation' has thus far meant that SJ compromises and the burbs carry on as usual. With backward politicians like the Rothesay mayor, Mel & Co. have had little success in the area of 'cooperation'.

[magee_b]

Originally Posted by DreDay

I forgot about that thing.. What's going on with it?

It's empty. Parked there the other day thinking I could save some time coming in off the highway. I think I saw 5 other cars in the whole thing. It's not connected to the Pedway system like the other parking garages, and quite a distance from the main offices/business uptown, so on these winter days when it should be a convenient option, it's in fact rather useless.

[MStuart]

The new parking garage hasn't been advertised or even the parking commission's website isn't listing it.
Great business model!

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by MountPleasant

'Cooperation' has thus far meant that SJ compromises and the burbs carry on as usual. With backward politicians like the Rothesay mayor, Mel & Co. have had little success in the area of 'cooperation'.

I think the burbs are going to be looking towards cooperation in the coming years as it becomes increasingly difficult to provide services in expanding communities with relatively low tax rates. Quispamsis is currently having an issue with its budget, for example.

[dhottawa729]

Originally Posted by magee_b

It's empty. Parked there the other day thinking I could save some time coming in off the highway. I think I saw 5 other cars in the whole thing. It's not connected to the Pedway system like the other parking garages, and quite a distance from the main offices/business uptown, so on these winter days when it should be a convenient option, it's in fact rather useless.

People don't want to look at it, so why would they want to park in it? I think they should either tear it down or convert it to a Reece's Pieces factory. Too bad the City hadn't spent that $19-Million on gold-plated cobblestones all through King Square - it would have been a similarly useless waste of money, but at least would have looked nice and made SJ look pimpin'.

[MountPleasant]

Can the garage be used by Harbour Station? Something could be worked out so that either the east or west lot could be opened up to development and the garage be used for events

[DreDay]

Originally Posted by MStuart

The new parking garage hasn't been advertised or even the parking commission's website isn't listing it.
Great business model!

I checked that after thinking about it, and I couldn't find anything either.. Are people at least using it for events at Harbour Station?

Edit: MountPleasant, just noticed your post. That's not a bad idea.