Stadiums and Arenas of Canada

[GernB]

Originally Posted by esquire

The stadium situation that is emerging in Toronto is weird.

The existing 1980s multipurpose stadium will effectively become baseball only, at least for the half-year that baseball season runs.

During that time, there will then be no large stadium suitable for football, soccer or other large events. A gussied-up BMO Stadium, which is something you might expect to see in a city maybe 1/10 the size of Toronto, will serve as the venue for those sports, except for the occasional Bills game or Grey Cup which will still take place at Skydome.

Bizarre.

Still not convinced that Rogers will put grass in Skydome despite their publicly stated intentions. It would make the place useless for any purpose other than baseball for 2/3 of the year and reduce the revenue stream considerably. The whole situation is odd really when you realize that the dome was built primarily because of the 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵 conditions at the waterfront and now people are seriously talking about the Argos going back there.

[thurmas]

If MLSE is serious and wants to make BMO expandable to 40,000 plus for Grey Cups and Winter Classics then I wouldn't be surprised if Rogers does more than just put grass in the Rogers Centre. Rogers Centre could be in store for a major renovation to become baseball only. I could see seating capacity reduction by 10,000 seats since 50,000 is too much for the Blue Jays needs. Maybe a grass outfield wall, something similar in renovations to what the White Sox did at U.S. Cellular field in Chicago could be done.

[GernB]

^^No offense, but I think you're dreaming. Renovations will cost multimillions and Rogers will not spend the money. They will keep bleating about their subpar product and hope that people will somehow show up. Hopefully they will go bankrupt and we won't have to deal with them anymore.

[Stainless]

Originally Posted by GernB

Still not convinced that Rogers will put grass in Skydome despite their publicly stated intentions. It would make the place useless for any purpose other than baseball for 2/3 of the year and reduce the revenue stream considerably.

That's not really true anymore. There are several stadiums with grass that keep the multipurpose... uh... ness. Reliant Stadium in Houston is perhaps the best example that springs to my mind. They use a collection of grass trays that can be removed as necessary for non-football events. I believe that others have ways of covering the grass for events without killing the lawn.

The bigger problem, in my opinion, is growing healthy grass in a stadium that doesn't ever really appear to get full sunlight. "Grow lights" seem to be an option that is having some success around the world, but I've yet to see a field that relies heavily on those lights and still looks as good as one that sees the sun.

What a time to be alive, hey?

[ScreamingViking]

Originally Posted by GernB

THF and Lansdowne are cheap pieces of 🞵🞵🞵🞵, undersized and built on a shoestring. Winnipeg and Regina can afford great venues but the Ontario cities can't pull it off? Both Hamilton and Ottawa will be crying for more seats the day after their stadiums open. The lack of forward thinking in these cities is absolutely amazing to me.

I'll take issue with "cheap pieces of 🞵🞵🞵🞵" The budgets are more limited than what was spent in Winnipeg or will likely be spent in Regina, but I don't think the stadiums in Hamilton and Ottawa will be 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵. Basic, utilitarian, functional... few fancy add-ons like a 🞵🞵🞵🞵 curvy roof (though Ottawa's getting that cool wood wrap on its south side)

The stadium capacities do fit the current markets. Take away most of the freebies and THF fits the demand for the Tiger-Cats. Ottawa is starting fresh and should be able to fill its new stadium. Thing is, both stadiums can be expanded.

In Hamilton, the lack of forward thinking relates more to the location than the design - the city didn't do a proper comparative analysis of all possible sites, and the Ti-Cats decided to be difficult late in the game. But the design was selected as a package deal with other Pan-Am Games facilities; so it wasn't just about the best bid to create THF, but the best bid for all. The Cats and some city staff had a bit of input into that process, but I think the budget was a limiting factor. I would have liked to see Young come up with some bucks to provide something more... and he still can if 24k is not enough capacity, I suppose.

There are still a lot of people in Hamilton who disagree with spending ANY money on a new stadium. Without the Pan-Am Games, we'd be putting band-aids on Ivor Wynne for a long time to come.

[isaidso]

Well you get what you pay for.

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by esquire

The stadium situation that is emerging in Toronto is weird.

Toronto is a city built on compromise. Toronto would rather have a stadium that serves no one particularly well as long as it makes an attempt to cater to everyone's needs.

Buildings get chopped from 70 to 65 floors so those averse to density can feel like they won even though 5 less floors will accomplish nothing. Old buildings are demolished then facades rebuilt so heritage people can say that they've won even though 99% of the building is in the city dump. It goes on and on and on.

[ScreamingViking]

Originally Posted by isaidso

Well you get what you pay for.

Does that mean we're getting 🞵🞵🞵🞵?

[Copes]

As a note, sharing BMO with a football team would be rough for soccer in Toronto. Tim is doing some amazing things for TFC this off-season, but the damage a game like football does to a field is directly opposite of the pristine grass soccer needs to work.

I'm not in Toronto but I visit regularly and attend TFC games every chance I can. It looks like its set in stone at this point, but I wouldn't want to see BMO Field share with a football team.

Expanded seating? Sure. The odd event taking place there? I'm all for that. But if the Argo's regular season games will be there I see that potentially hurting TFC, and TFC really doesn't need any more obstacles.

[FrankieFlowerpot]

Originally Posted by Copes

As a note, sharing BMO with a football team would be rough for soccer in Toronto. Tim is doing some amazing things for TFC this off-season, but the damage a game like football does to a field is directly opposite of the pristine grass soccer needs to work.

I'm not in Toronto but I visit regularly and attend TFC games every chance I can. It looks like its set in stone at this point, but I wouldn't want to see BMO Field share with a football team.

Expanded seating? Sure. The odd event taking place there? I'm all for that. But if the Argo's regular season games will be there I see that potentially hurting TFC, and TFC really doesn't need any more obstacles.

What's he done exactly??

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Copes

As a note, sharing BMO with a football team would be rough for soccer in Toronto. Tim is doing some amazing things for TFC this off-season, but the damage a game like football does to a field is directly opposite of the pristine grass soccer needs to work.

Between the whole grass in Skydome thing and the kvetching about football at BMO, I don't think there is another city in the world that frets as much about its sports team playing surfaces as much as Toronto does... it's a shame that interest doesn't translate into actual fan enthusiasm.

Honestly, who cares... MLS teams have shared venues with NFL and NCAA teams before. Put in field turf at BMO and be done with it. Surely the soccer players are not that delicate that they can't handle playing on such a surface?

[FrankieFlowerpot]

They need to put that hybrid grass in - if it's good enough for major soccer stadiums in Europe and NFL stadiums - it's good enough for BMO Field

[esquire]

Originally Posted by FrankieFlowerpot

They need to put that hybrid grass in - if it's good enough for major soccer stadiums in Europe and NFL stadiums - it's good enough for BMO Field

It seems that the only playing surfaces that will do for the MLSE owned teams and their fans are ones that specifically cannot be used by the Argonauts, which obviously rules out hybrid grass

[FrankieFlowerpot]

I see there's rumours on Twitter that both Hamilton and Ottawa will be playing all their pre-season and first three weeks of the season on the road

[esquire]

Originally Posted by FrankieFlowerpot

I see there's rumours on Twitter that both Hamilton and Ottawa will be playing all their pre-season and first three weeks of the season on the road

LOL, same song and dance that the Bombers went through before.

Come on, it would take a miracle for the Ticats to play a home game before Labour Day. Of course admitting that the 2014 season will be played in Guelph would seriously cut into season ticket sales, so the Cats won't fess up on that front until maybe April. Have they taken the temp seating down at U. Guelph yet? That might provide some indication of what's really going on...

As for Ottawa, what are they going to do if the stadium isn't finished? At least the existing north stands might be ready by July, but what about the south stands? Are they just going to use one grandstand until September or whenever the south stand is done? Bit of a trickier situation with them given the lack of an alternate venue.

[elly63]

Originally Posted by esquire

Come on, it would take a miracle for the Ticats to play a home game before Labour Day. Of course admitting that the 2014 season will be played in Guelph would seriously cut into season ticket sales, so the Cats won't fess up on that front until maybe April.

As for Ottawa, what are they going to do if the stadium isn't finished? At least the existing north stands might be ready by July

How do you know it (Hamilton) won't be ready? Exactly what is so large and important that it won't be completed and delay the opening?

We've known about the teams starting on the road for a long time. One of the reasons was to have more time to train event staff. It's also a good marketing move to create anticipation. It gets the team together (in Ottawa's case) and more familiar with each other before the big debut.

As for the Ottawa north stand, what more are you expecting that can't be done in six months?

[Bluenote]

Originally Posted by GernB

^^No offense, but I think you're dreaming. Renovations will cost multimillions and Rogers will not spend the money. They will keep bleating about their subpar product and hope that people will somehow show up. Hopefully they will go bankrupt and we won't have to deal with them anymore.

Well the province and Feds and city paid for that place ( taxpayers of Canada ) and it cost $500 plus million. Something like $700 million in today's money. They sold the place 8 years later for 4% of the original cost. Sound investment I do say. Rogers paid next to nothing for it also. So even dumping $100 million into it is a deal. I am sure Canada and the city of TO are still paying for this thing.

[Migs]

Originally Posted by Bluenote

Well the province and Feds and city paid for that place ( taxpayers of Canada ) and it cost $500 plus million. Something like $700 million in today's money. They sold the place 8 years later for 4% of the original cost. Sound investment I do say. Rogers paid next to nothing for it also. So even dumping $100 million into it is a deal. I am sure Canada and the city of TO are still paying for this thing.

The skydome is an asset to the city of Toronto regardless of who owns it. With wrestlemanias, football games, baseball games, etc, the place has brought in billions to the GTA. Big picture, it's irrelevent to the city who owns it, this way they don't have to invest in it yet they still reap all the benefits.

[osmo]

Not sure what MLSE will do with football and soccer to co-exsist. The City owns the ace but MLSE books it's events and gets a cut, it's has motive to increase the amount and type of events it can hold, the City might just get lease payments on the thing while MLSE gets all other revenues aside from parking.

Leiweke is talking a bit out of his 🞵🞵🞵 here because be dam well knows the Skydome after October is open to other events an the Grey Cup in turf or even the last stages of that years grass will be possible. There is no nostalgia to having a GC in cold rain and sleet with bleachers added on when a domed facility is available to use -he just saying that stuff to drum up public support/money. The Argos have a more realistic chance playing up at York, if MLSE is deadest against not messing up the soccer pitch. If you have natural grass it's hard to make work, only with turf settings like in New England can it easily be done and wen that turf takes a beating from the paint. You crack open the endzones so a CFL field can fit, and you rip up grass or re-install sod patches for each game. All the scenarios 🞵🞵🞵🞵 for soccer which brings in considerable more money then he Argos. The Argos will be at York, all this just fluff by MLSE as there is no example of this ever working smoothly for both soccer and football.

Same could be said to how football complained about baseball an the rivets and dangerous patches caused in the old carpet turf from the bases and mound. It was hard for them to co-exsist. In today's world it's easier to construct a baseball field where a football field (NFL) fits nicely into the outfield such as the case with the Diamondbacks via Chase Field and SF Giants via AT&T field.

The expansion will happen of course, If TFC awakes from the dead I don't think they would have an issue filling a extra 2-5K seats. Also I'm sure a stage will get rammed in like as originally planned from the start for BMO. Plus the move would go against MLSE policy that favors soccer "specific" or at least soccer focused facilities. Even the Whitecaps still have there Stadium dreams on the radar after the first lease at BC places runs out if they can get traction on that project.

Regardless it will be interesting to see what the design looks like. Do you nuke those crappy West bleachers and re-build them bigger? A roof on just both sides with open ends for possible expansion? Will be cool to see what they come up with.

[EdFromOttawa]

Originally Posted by esquire

LOL, same song and dance that the Bombers went through before.

Come on, it would take a miracle for the Ticats to play a home game before Labour Day. Of course admitting that the 2014 season will be played in Guelph would seriously cut into season ticket sales, so the Cats won't fess up on that front until maybe April. Have they taken the temp seating down at U. Guelph yet? That might provide some indication of what's really going on...

As for Ottawa, what are they going to do if the stadium isn't finished? At least the existing north stands might be ready by July, but what about the south stands? Are they just going to use one grandstand until September or whenever the south stand is done? Bit of a trickier situation with them given the lack of an alternate venue.

LOL Ottawa is miles ahead of THF.

It will be done. I'd be surprised if it wasn't done early.