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  #5481  
Old Posted Dec 20, 2013, 4:39 AM
Gordon Gordon is offline
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Why is that hte Asian carriers seem to be successful red eye flights from YVR to Asia?
     
     
  #5482  
Old Posted Dec 20, 2013, 5:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Cage View Post
No PEK slots available according to AC. The slot pair given up was not viable for services from canada. Kind of similar to the initial HND slots that were at compsrable times as PEK. AZc has also tried midnight departures on yvr-hkg with little profitable success.
Odd. Since almost all the asian airlines have a midnight flight. CX, MU, BR to name a few that find success with this timing. I love these timings since it lets me work the whole day, hop on a plane and wake up in the morning in the different country ready to go!
     
     
  #5483  
Old Posted Dec 20, 2013, 4:23 PM
deasine deasine is offline
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Originally Posted by teriyaki View Post
Odd. Since almost all the asian airlines have a midnight flight. CX, MU, BR to name a few that find success with this timing. I love these timings since it lets me work the whole day, hop on a plane and wake up in the morning in the different country ready to go!
Answer comes down to available connections. While red eye timings were generally great for O&D passengers, the later inbound arrival times restrict the number of potential connection flights.

Meanwhile for Asian carriers, their inbound arrivals arrive in the morning thereby offering more connecting options.
     
     
  #5484  
Old Posted Dec 20, 2013, 4:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teriyaki View Post
Odd. Since almost all the asian airlines have a midnight flight. CX, MU, BR to name a few that find success with this timing. I love these timings since it lets me work the whole day, hop on a plane and wake up in the morning in the different country ready to go!
Quote:
Originally Posted by deasine View Post
Answer comes down to available connections. While red eye timings were generally great for O&D passengers, the later inbound arrival times restrict the number of potential connection flights.

Meanwhile for Asian carriers, their inbound arrivals arrive in the morning thereby offering more connecting options.


For the detailed answer:
- CX888/889 continues onto JFK. IIRC le3ss than 1/2 the plane gets off at YVR.
- PR118/119 continued onto LAS many moons ago and now does YYZ turn.
- BR9/10 and CI30/31 both have 18:15 arrival into YVR, much too late for transcontinental traffic (YYZ, YOW, YHZ).
- MU598/599 at least gets coordination with the day time departure. But I doubt China Eastern is making money on this run. Likely they are hoping to dominate the market someday (long term market strategies are a hallmark of Chinese modus opperandi). This is the only strategy to get connection feed at both ends of the route.
     
     
  #5485  
Old Posted Dec 20, 2013, 5:58 PM
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I know and there was no pun intended. I just expressed my amusement, although it seems that there can be more insight to these same topics. I also find this a very interesting thread to read.

I will have my next chance to fly out of our great airport tomorrow. I will be seeing enough airports for some time on my YVR-PDX-ORD-CMX and MSY-IAH-SEA-YVR routes.
Ha Ha, This sounds like a trip booked with Aeroplan points.

Very similar to my up coming YVR-LAS-PTY-BOG / BOG-PTY-LAX-YVR trip.

My all time worst aeroplan routing was YVR-ORD-IAD-GRU-GIG
     
     
  #5486  
Old Posted Dec 20, 2013, 6:15 PM
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To reinforce my SEA/DL argument and that SEA is only receiving an Intl expansion due to convenience and the dehubbing of other hubs, the CAPA article posted today further backs this up:http://centreforaviation.com/analysis/de...tokyo-and-leveraging-partnerships-145281
     
     
  #5487  
Old Posted Dec 20, 2013, 7:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Cage View Post
- BR9/10 and CI30/31 both have 18:15 arrival into YVR, much too late for transcontinental traffic (YYZ, YOW, YHZ).
But they are perfect for the connections at the other side of the Pacific - arriving at 5:15 in the morning, and departing 23:55 in the evening.
     
     
  #5488  
Old Posted Dec 21, 2013, 12:41 AM
trofirhen trofirhen is offline
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Originally Posted by Cage View Post

..... Likely they are hoping to dominate the market someday (long term market strategies are a hallmark of Chinese modus opperandi). This is the only strategy to get connection feed at both ends of the route.
Connection feed to where, for example, please.
     
     
  #5489  
Old Posted Dec 21, 2013, 4:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gordon View Post
I thought AC was running a running a red eye a coup,e of nights a week last Summer yvr pek
Last summer, the 2200 departure was actually daily and the midday flight was 4 days a week for a total of 11 flights per week. It looked like AC was then bumping both flights to daily. However, the night flight was in fact dropped but the day flight was then returned to daily. This has now been upgauged to the 2 class 77W.

So compared to last summer YVR-PEK goes from 11 763s per week (2,321 seats per week) to a daily 77W (2,443 seats per week).

So as Cage says, the day slots that AC have appear to be completely allocated to the YVR and YYZ flights.
     
     
  #5490  
Old Posted Dec 21, 2013, 4:35 AM
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Originally Posted by deasine View Post
To reinforce my SEA/DL argument and that SEA is only receiving an Intl expansion due to convenience and the dehubbing of other hubs, the CAPA article posted today further backs this up:http://centreforaviation.com/analysis/de...tokyo-and-leveraging-partnerships-145281
Yes. And yet they still list Osaka as a destination from SEA in that article. I usually find these articles quite thorough and sometimes answer a lot of my questions, but lately I am starting to question the quality of some of them.
     
     
  #5491  
Old Posted Dec 21, 2013, 4:36 AM
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Wasn't it CA (as in Air China) that was running/still runs the red eye Yvr-PEK (CA997/8), not AC?

I recall taking this and enjoyed the conveniences spoken of earlier (work entire day then fly and be in another country the next, and start work there).

Last edited by Hot Rod; Dec 21, 2013 at 5:47 AM. Reason: corrected second to reflect Air Canada AC
     
     
  #5492  
Old Posted Dec 21, 2013, 4:40 AM
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Originally Posted by trofirhen View Post
Connection feed to where, for example, please.
China Eastern flies from Shanghai Pudong to about 100 cities in China and East/Southeast Asia. MU has a massive hub based in PVG.

I encourage anyone to go to these airlines websites and look at their route maps to get an idea of just how big and vast some of their networks are.
     
     
  #5493  
Old Posted Dec 21, 2013, 4:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Hot Rod View Post
Wasn't it CA (as in Air China) that was running/still runs the red eye Yvr-PEK (CA997/8), not CA?

I recall taking this and enjoyed the conveniences spoken of earlier (work entire day then fly and be in another country the next, and start work there).
I think you meant AC instead of CA (your second CA). In recent memory Air China has only run daytime flights.

I wouldn't be surprised if this is eventually bumped to two daily from the current 11 weekly.
     
     
  #5494  
Old Posted Dec 21, 2013, 5:44 AM
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Yes sorry, not AC. Lol

I went back and corrected it with bold. Thx

And yes, it was like in 2011 when I took the CA red eyes.
     
     
  #5495  
Old Posted Dec 21, 2013, 10:28 AM
trofirhen trofirhen is offline
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Calin Rovinescu talked about the importance of developing a true "hub" at YVR (no, not a 'megahub,' just a hub).
It would, of course, be incumbent on Air Canada to create this.
I just wonder how serious AC is, given that their fortress is YYZ. Would YVR be designed to be a real hub, however modest by comparison, or more of a feeder into YYZ?
I doubt the ability of developing YVR into a real hub.
It's just (with the exception of its proximity to Asia), not in the right place to become a hub.
     
     
  #5496  
Old Posted Dec 21, 2013, 6:09 PM
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Originally Posted by trofirhen View Post
Calin Rovinescu talked about the importance of developing a true "hub" at YVR (no, not a 'megahub,' just a hub).
It would, of course, be incumbent on Air Canada to create this.
I just wonder how serious AC is, given that their fortress is YYZ. Would YVR be designed to be a real hub, however modest by comparison, or more of a feeder into YYZ?
I doubt the ability of developing YVR into a real hub.
It's just (with the exception of its proximity to Asia), not in the right place to become a hub.
i think these concepts of "Megahub" and "fortress" are more suited to the US than Canada. Air Canada does not dominate Toronto in the same way that Delta does in Atlanta or MSP for example.

i would be surprised in anyone in Air Canada truly believes Toronto will become the sole Canadian "Megahub" where all connections are made and they move away from the point-to-point and regional hubs they have now. For example if you fly from Ottawa to Halifax you can usually find a direct flight. In the US hub model your only option would be to made a connection at one of the hubs.

I think what they have been proposing is that Toronto is a connecting hub between the US and Europe and Asia. For the eastern US it makes sense to connect there. In the western US and Western Canada is makes more sense to connect in Vancouver or Calgary.

From the US, Air Canada has good connections between Vancouver and places like Seattle, Portland, San Fransisco, LA. Perhaps over time it might be able to build more connections into the mid west. The difference between connecting western us cities is outside of California there is a fairly limited population base.
     
     
  #5497  
Old Posted Dec 21, 2013, 8:29 PM
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^I agree. The single mega-hub or fortress is suited to countries with large population bases and multiple large carriers (like the US) or else countries with a single dominant city and small geography (like most European countries...where else is British realistically going to create a 'fortress' than LHR? Where else would is AF going to dominate than CDG?). Because of Canada's expansive geography, Toronto will never be the only possible connection point on Air Canada. Gateway to Europe, yes, and connection point for Europe-South America traffic. In addition it will always be able to draw from the densely populated US Northeast. But YVR will always have good connections on AC or Star Alliance to the Western half of North America, and I can't see AC viably forcing people to connect in YYZ for every flight. Indeed, we have convenient service to Star mega hubs Chicago and Houston. Maybe not on AC metal, but AC and UA cooperate extensively.

But YVR is NOT a slouch for service, especially given its low population and relative lack of economic power. We have incredible service for a city our size. I get tired of the constant refrains of "it's just a regional focus city" or whatever. We have to think within our means, so to speak.

Honestly, this thread can get very repetitive. I encourage people to either think or research before they post.
     
     
  #5498  
Old Posted Dec 21, 2013, 10:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Valley_Refugee View Post
But YVR is NOT a slouch for service, especially given its low population and relative lack of economic power. We have incredible service for a city our size. I get tired of the constant refrains of "it's just a regional focus city" or whatever. We have to think within our means, so to speak.

Honestly, this thread can get very repetitive. I encourage people to either think or research before they post.
Well said mate. I especially like your comment to encourage people to think / research before posting. Many questions can be answered in less time than actually typing and posting a question.

Exactly my point. YVR has an enviable list of international carriers and routes and certainly serves the city well. There is definitely more to come, but there isn't an infinite amount of possibilities.
     
     
  #5499  
Old Posted Dec 22, 2013, 1:24 AM
deasine deasine is offline
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Originally Posted by Valley_Refugee View Post
^I agree. The single mega-hub or fortress is suited to countries with large population bases and multiple large carriers (like the US) or else countries with a single dominant city and small geography (like most European countries...where else is British realistically going to create a 'fortress' than LHR? Where else would is AF going to dominate than CDG?). Because of Canada's expansive geography, Toronto will never be the only possible connection point on Air Canada. Gateway to Europe, yes, and connection point for Europe-South America traffic. In addition it will always be able to draw from the densely populated US Northeast. But YVR will always have good connections on AC or Star Alliance to the Western half of North America, and I can't see AC viably forcing people to connect in YYZ for every flight. Indeed, we have convenient service to Star mega hubs Chicago and Houston. Maybe not on AC metal, but AC and UA cooperate extensively.

But YVR is NOT a slouch for service, especially given its low population and relative lack of economic power. We have incredible service for a city our size. I get tired of the constant refrains of "it's just a regional focus city" or whatever. We have to think within our means, so to speak.

Honestly, this thread can get very repetitive. I encourage people to either think or research before they post.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Aussie View Post
Well said mate. I especially like your comment to encourage people to think / research before posting. Many questions can be answered in less time than actually typing and posting a question.

Exactly my point. YVR has an enviable list of international carriers and routes and certainly serves the city well. There is definitely more to come, but there isn't an infinite amount of possibilities.
If I'm can also guilty of being repetitive , I definitely second this. At the same time though, I also understand that the aviation industry and knowing the analysis/business operations behind it is significantly more complicated than other industries/businesses. You really have to use a systems perspective in order to be able to understand the whole picture. For instance, looking solely at one traffic flow, in the most recent case the Asia-South America traffic and YVR/SEA, doesn't look at the whole picture. One has to include current business operations, aviation policies, competing business structures, other countries' aviation policies, demand and supply, etc. (list goes on) in order to realise that it's not as simple as telling AC to fly a route down to BOG for continuing feed on AV to other South American destinations (for instance). There are so many more players, and so many more levels from agendas of individual airlines, to agendas of governments, to agenda of airports. To a degree, it's like the City of Surrey's LRT case, Surrey wants LRT as a means of generating additional tax revenues and CACs to improve city services and more cash flow, whereas TransLink seems to prefer ALRT to reduce costs in offering service. One needs to examine multiple systems and stakeholders in order to understand the situation.
     
     
  #5500  
Old Posted Dec 22, 2013, 1:29 AM
trofirhen trofirhen is offline
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Originally Posted by Valley_Refugee View Post
^I agree. The single mega-hub or fortress is suited to countries with large population bases and multiple large carriers (like the US) or else countries with a single dominant city and small geography (like most European countries...where else is British realistically going to create a 'fortress' than LHR? Where else would is AF going to dominate than CDG?). Because of Canada's expansive geography, Toronto will never be the only possible connection point on Air Canada. Gateway to Europe, yes, and connection point for Europe-South America traffic. In addition it will always be able to draw from the densely populated US Northeast. But YVR will always have good connections on AC or Star Alliance to the Western half of North America, and I can't see AC viably forcing people to connect in YYZ for every flight. Indeed, we have convenient service to Star mega hubs Chicago and Houston. Maybe not on AC metal, but AC and UA cooperate extensively.

But YVR is NOT a slouch for service, especially given its low population and relative lack of economic power. We have incredible service for a city our size. I get tired of the constant refrains of "it's just a regional focus city" or whatever. We have to think within our means, so to speak.

Honestly, this thread can get very repetitive. I encourage people to either think or research before they post.
Thank you for this objective and instructive feedback. It made me realize that I had jumped to conclusions without having the numbers, as Johnny said.
(where to access the numbers, anyway?)
but Vancouver is indeed served nonstop worldwide, far moreso than many cities of its size, in the USA, in particular, although they have several very large city megahubs, as you stated.

I have never had any grand delusions of Vancouver, being some kind of 4-runway, 30+ overseas destinations, 4+ continents - and 25 transborder+, plus who knows how many domestic routes, all of 'em year round scheduled, huge concourses, terminal connector rail, constant take offs and landings, bla bla.

I rather like it the way it is.
I just wish it could get 2 or 3 more European
destinations (and maybe one day, Istanbul....), get Brisbane and Melbourne, plus the possible >(yes I know everyone hisses; nevertheless there's to be a meeting with the YVR president and Canada immigration about the visa-free China - South America connector that the airport is chasing like a hunting wolf, yet most forumers say it'll never fly. Maybe that's true. I do not know.)

Just a handful of destinations more is all I'm really talking about. Maybe it's because it's Canada's third largest and only Pacific coast city.
     
     
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