Calgary Public Transit II

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by sim

Yeah, like how all the roads were.

I'm patently fed up with that ridiculous contention.

I'm not sure what you're saying here to be honest. I think the age of private companies building railways is over, the province would almost certainly have to take responsibility for building it and then if they want contract out the running of it.

Originally Posted by andasen

It would be easier just to have Airdrie commuter rail run on the existing freight lines like the west coast express in Vancouver does. That and Okotoks are the easiest commuter rail links to make (with their not being on CP's mainline, instead on less busy N-S line.

The freight lines we have are not very well suited to passenger trains (or freight trains for that matter). There is going to be very little spare capacity on single tracks, and timing paths between long slow moving trains on unreliable timetables will be sketchy. I doubt CP would be too happy about having outsiders on their tracks either, and having dealt with them in a work capacity I am very dubious of their competence at timetabling. Their safety standards are also clearly lacking as we have seen in the past few months.

Better to have a short spur over to a well maintained double track railway with lots of spare paths on it.

I'll have a look at the documents when I get some free time.

[Bassic Lab]

Originally Posted by milomilo

I'm not sure what you're saying here to be honest. I think the age of private companies building railways is over, the province would almost certainly have to take responsibility for building it and then if they want contract out the running of it.



The freight lines we have are not very well suited to passenger trains (or freight trains for that matter). There is going to be very little spare capacity on single tracks, and timing paths between long slow moving trains on unreliable timetables will be sketchy. I doubt CP would be too happy about having outsiders on their tracks either, and having dealt with them in a work capacity I am very dubious of their competence at timetabling. Their safety standards are also clearly lacking as we have seen in the past few months.

Better to have a short spur over to a well maintained double track railway with lots of spare paths on it.

I'll have a look at the documents when I get some free time.

Why bother with a spur? Just place the station along the HSR route. A siding on each side of the tracks with a high speed switch at every connection and platforms beside those would prett much do it. Throw in a pedestrian bridge, a bus loop, and a parking lot and call it a station. If it's a ways out of town then all the better; it would give Airdrie a chance to build a real downtown.

If we're actually going to have HSR, then it definitely makes sense to utilize the tracks for commuter rail too. I can't imagine it being anywhere near capacity even with the addition.

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by Bassic Lab

Why bother with a spur? Just place the station along the HSR route. A siding on each side of the tracks with a high speed switch at every connection and platforms beside those would prett much do it. Throw in a pedestrian bridge, a bus loop, and a parking lot and call it a station. If it's a ways out of town then all the better; it would give Airdrie a chance to build a real downtown.

If we're actually going to have HSR, then it definitely makes sense to utilize the tracks for commuter rail too. I can't imagine it being anywhere near capacity even with the addition.

Yeah, that would make sense too. And I agree with your second paragraph. Normally it would be a bad idea to mix commuter and high speed rail as it drastically decreases capacity, but there will be so much spare here that it won't matter. It may be a thought to leave room in the ROW for potentially 4 tracking in the distant future, should there ever be a need to separate the two.

Using these lines instead of the freight lines would allow using proper EMUs rather than the diesel push/pull designs common in Canada allowing for much cheaper operation and a more comfortable ride. Linking up the string of small towns in the corridor would be a great outcome and could hopefully be the beginning of a passenger network in Alberta.

[Fuzz]

Wow, does this city ever need to get some transit lanes put in. I just spent 2 hours on a bus going from downtown to 40th ave NW. That's a grand total of 5km as the crow flies. In that time I could have driven to Lake Louise. I could have walked home AND back to work, and had time to stop for latte.

Why aren't there transit lanes on 5th and 6th ave? Why did we have to wait 20 minutes at 6th street while single person vehicles kept turning right blocking buses? Why does this city think this is OK?

Sorry for the rant, but its nonsense.

I usually walk home because the bus ride is so bad. I wasn't prepared for the sudden weather change today, so I took the bus. What a horrible experience.

[sim]

Originally Posted by milomilo

I'm not sure what you're saying here to be honest. I think the age of private companies building railways is over, the province would almost certainly have to take responsibility for building it and then if they want contract out the running of it.

Errr, I may have misinterpreted your post. The way you phrased it seemed like you were one of those "well if it's so viable, then why doesn't the private sector build it" kind of people. Seems not, so confusion abated..?

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by sim

Errr, I may have misinterpreted your post. The way you phrased it seemed like you were one of those "well if it's so viable, then why doesn't the private sector build it" kind of people. Seems not, so confusion abated..?

To be honest, that was what I was saying rhetorically. But of course, there are massive barriers to entry preventing private companies building it, not least of which is the huge cost. Which is why I think the idea of the line not being built with public money (or at least some sort of public private partnership) is fanciful. Even if we could find a company willing to take complete ownership of it, they would almost certainly screw it up and the province would have to take it over at huge cost. Call me a pessimist, but I would prefer that if it was to be built it stays in public hands.

[Allan83]

Here's an interesting tidbit about the German style maglev technology.

"Can the superspeed maglev system operate in winter?
The icing of the overhead lines which may interrupt the operation of conventional railroad systems is impossible in the case of the superspeed maglev system because it has neither overhead lines nor power collectors. The propulsion components of the superspeed maglev system are installed in a protected position under the guideway table where neither snow nor ice can gather. Additionally, hardly any snow remains on the guideway even if snowfall is heavy because it is blown away either by constant train operation or (in particular where the guideway is elevated) by the wind. As the distance between the underside of the vehicle and the upper side of the guideway table is 15 cm, the superspeed maglev system can continue operation even if a blanket of snow should "cake together" on the guideway up to this height. In rare case where blankets of snow are higher, snow removers are used."
http://www.transrapid.de/cgi-tdb/en/basics.prg?a_no=72&r_index=2

[Allan83]

Originally Posted by milomilo

To be honest, that was what I was saying rhetorically. But of course, there are massive barriers to entry preventing private companies building it, not least of which is the huge cost. Which is why I think the idea of the line not being built with public money (or at least some sort of public private partnership) is fanciful. Even if we could find a company willing to take complete ownership of it, they would almost certainly screw it up and the province would have to take it over at huge cost. Call me a pessimist, but I would prefer that if it was to be built it stays in public hands.

They’ve been saying that there have been private proposals for some years now, and I don’t think there’s any reason to doubt that this is true. One interesting line I heard during a news clip recently with respect to these offers was, “there are a number of companies looking so showcase their technology”. There are a lot of proposals for high speed transit in North America right now but not a lot of action, and I would bet that a lot of these manufacturers believe that if they could just get their foot in the door and get something built, and prove that it works, that a lot more orders would follow.

[milomilo]

OK, I did a bit of reading of those documents. The 2004 one had a lot more detail than the other and I regard it as more credible. That study sensibly discounts maglev and I agree it would be a mistake. They both give very low numbers of trains running per day (18 or so). This is a massive underutilization of the infrastructure and I can't see how it would be cost effective given other countrys' systems usually have close to that number every hour, and still need subsidy.

The studies also state a market capture of around 5%. If this is the case, it will have very little effect on the traffic on the QEII so arguments stating that we can avoid the cost of upgrading that highway are void.

I am very skeptical there are companies begging to build this - who are they? I don't see why it would be a secret so it should be in the public domain. Are there any example of private companies taking ownership of entire HSR projects? Even the California HSR down in the good old free market USA is to be publicly built.

[ByeByeBaby]

Originally Posted by Allan83

They’ve been saying that there have been private proposals for some years now, and I don’t think there’s any reason to doubt that this is true. One interesting line I heard during a news clip recently with respect to these offers was, “there are a number of companies looking so showcase their technology”. There are a lot of proposals for high speed transit in North America right now but not a lot of action, and I would bet that a lot of these manufacturers believe that if they could just get their foot in the door and get something built, and prove that it works, that a lot more orders would follow.

I have every reason to doubt that there are serious private proposals to build HSR, because there isn't any HSR being built. You hear that there are a number of companies looking to expand their retail operations into Alberta to showcase their offerings, and then a few years later there's a Bass Pro opening at Cross Iron Mills, or Michael Kors or Tiffany or Williams-Sonoma open up in Chinook or Five Guys starts building outlets. They are serious about doing business here, so they go and do it.

I'm sure there exist HSR manufacturers who are angling for a government subsidy so large that even they can make a profit on a low ridership demonstration train, and also a class of dreamers without the technical skill to actually make something happen who are all hat, no cattle. But neither of these are serious private proposals. If Talgo or Nippon Sharyo or Alstom or Hyundai want to prove that HSR works, they could fly every politician, engineer, planner and activist in North America to their home country for a hell of a lot less money than building a multi billion dollar demonstration line out of the goodness of their hearts.

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by ByeByeBaby

I have every reason to doubt that there are serious private proposals to build HSR, because there isn't any HSR being built. You hear that there are a number of companies looking to expand their retail operations into Alberta to showcase their offerings, and then a few years later there's a Bass Pro opening at Cross Iron Mills, or Michael Kors or Tiffany or Williams-Sonoma open up in Chinook or Five Guys starts building outlets. They are serious about doing business here, so they go and do it.

I'm sure there exist HSR manufacturers who are angling for a government subsidy so large that even they can make a profit on a low ridership demonstration train, and also a class of dreamers without the technical skill to actually make something happen who are all hat, no cattle. But neither of these are serious private proposals. If Talgo or Nippon Sharyo or Alstom or Hyundai want to prove that HSR works, they could fly every politician, engineer, planner and activist in North America to their home country for a hell of a lot less money than building a multi billion dollar demonstration line out of the goodness of their hearts.

Yeah this.

The manufacturers of HSR have plenty of evidence of how well it works - Japan and all of Europe. Incredibly expensive systems, built by the state, in places with the population density and existing rail infrastructure to make it work.

[The Chemist]

Originally Posted by milomilo

Yeah this.

The manufacturers of HSR have plenty of evidence of how well it works - Japan and all of Europe. Incredibly expensive systems, built by the state, in places with the population density and existing rail infrastructure to make it work.

And of course, the world's largest HSR network in China as well.

[Allan83]

Originally Posted by ByeByeBaby

I have every reason to doubt that there are serious private proposals to build HSR, because there isn't any HSR being built...

I don’t think the government would say that if it wasn’t true. I don’t think they would have anything to gain by doing that. I suspect that the holdup is on the government’s side. They want to make sure we build the right project, after all. If we choose a 200 km/h train we’ll be stuck with it for quite some time. We couldn’t tear it out after 5 years and then put in the maglev that we really wanted, for example. I suspect the holdup is because the government believes that the faster options give us the most value, but the fast options are also the ones with the most questions.

I'm sure there exist HSR manufacturers who are angling for a government subsidy so large that even they can make a profit on a low ridership demonstration train, and also a class of dreamers without the technical skill to actually make something happen who are all hat, no cattle. But neither of these are serious private proposals. If Talgo or Nippon Sharyo or Alstom or Hyundai want to prove that HSR works, they could fly every politician, engineer, planner and activist in North America to their home country for a hell of a lot less money than building a multi billion dollar demonstration line out of the goodness of their hearts.

I’m sure it’s not a question of whether the technology works in a test facility. I’m sure the question is whether it works reliably in commercial use, and just as importantly whether it can be built without huge cost overruns. What’s the best way to deal with the risk of cost overruns? Shift the risk to the party that is best able to mitigate and manage it. Do you know about Strait Crossing Inc. and the Confederation Bridge in PEI? I think there are some similarities between that project and this one, and I think the BOOT contract structure that worked well there would work well will with this project as well.

As a final note, if you’re skeptical about the viability of this project please point to the parts of those reports that you don’t believe. Just saying that you don’t think it’s viable without addressing the professional analysis that shows that it is is not very convincing.

[RicoLance21]

Not sure if this was mentioned, but Lions Park Station's expanded portion is now open.

[srperrycgy]

It appears that Victoria Park/Stampede's platform extension will be open soon as well.

[DizzyEdge]

Which stations are left?

[TallisRH]

Originally Posted by DizzyEdge

Which stations are left?

Bridgeland, Zoo, Barlow, 39th Ave, SAIT, and Banff Trail.

Here are some pics from the recently completed 201 station extensions.

Anderson

Victoria Park/Stampede

Lions Park

Wider sidewalk and heated bus shelter. Big improvement!

University

Large difference between old and new (LED) lighting

[Cruzer]

Originally Posted by TallisRH

Bridgeland, Zoo, Barlow, 39th Ave, SAIT, and Banff Trail.

Here are some pics from the recently completed 201 station extensions.

Anderson

Victoria Park/Stampede

Lions Park

Wider sidewalk and heated bus shelter. Big improvement!

University

Large difference between old and new (LED) lighting

Very curious how SAIT's station is going to be done if anyone knows?

[RicoLance21]

One unique feature not mentioned above regarding Lions Park station:

A small portion of the sidewalk adjacent to the station is now elevated to seamlessly integrate with the westbound platform. Of course, that means railing is installed between the road and the sidewalk's elevated portion.

[CTrainDude]

Originally Posted by Cruzer

Very curious how SAIT's station is going to be done if anyone knows?

They're removing the building on the north end and extending towards the level crossing.