DENVER | Transportation Thread

[wong21fr]

Originally Posted by bunt_q

Guess we need some more cold-weather cyclists to reduce those emissions.

Ahhhh, the hot air that they expel would certainly help with the inversion.

[LAM]

Atlantic Cities has an interesting article about the "a brief but handy guide" from NYC DOT for making streets safer with nice easy to understand before / after sketches.

Link to Atlantic Cities Article

Link to NYC DOT Guide

Sample Before/After Sketch:

[DenverRider2]

Originally Posted by LAM

Atlantic Cities has an interesting article about the "a brief but handy guide" from NYC DOT for making streets safer with nice easy to understand before / after sketches.

I would like to see treatment like this for the diagonal park avenue intersections. The park/lafayette/16th is a particularly bad cluster.

[EngiNerd]

So after seeing this, there is no doubt Union Station will be active, at least for this one very important reason....No restrooms in the bus depot!


LINK

[mr1138]

I honestly don't think historic Union Station will have any problem with being used as some seem to be concerned about. It is centrally located in the complex, stands out architecturally, has easy access from both the front and back doors, and will be by far the nicest public waiting area (sheltered from the elements nonetheless) in the entire complex as well. There are plenty of reasons one would choose to spend time in the main hall: ticket sales (Amtrak and I'm assuming at least a small RTD information booth as well), restrooms, climate-controlled shelter, comfortable seating, even a bar! If you're from out of town, it is likely the first place you will go after arriving at the station. In terms of the all easy ways provided to avoid walking through the historic station, I don't know that we actually want every single daily commuter to necessarily walk through that space on a daily basis.

[wong21fr]

Originally Posted by EngiNerd

So after seeing this, there is no doubt Union Station will be active, at least for this one very important reason....No restrooms in the bus depot!

There are restrooms in the bus terminal, but they are near the Chestnut Pavilion. The signage in the picture is at the Union Station Pavilion.

I like the signage and using track numbers versus the train lines, but I hope that there are gate/track information displays in the bus terminal, train shed, and a big board in the great hall.

[bunt_q]

Originally Posted by EngiNerd

No restrooms in the bus depot!

EDIT: Nevermind.

[bunt_q]

Originally Posted by mr1138

It is centrally located in the complex, stands out architecturally, has easy access from both the front and back doors, and will be by far the nicest public waiting area (sheltered from the elements nonetheless) in the entire complex as well. There are plenty of reasons one would choose to spend time in the main hall: ticket sales (Amtrak and I'm assuming at least a small RTD information booth as well), restrooms, climate-controlled shelter, comfortable seating, even a bar! If you're from out of town, it is likely the first place you will go after arriving at the station. In terms of the all easy ways provided to avoid walking through the historic station, I don't know that we actually want every single daily commuter to necessarily walk through that space on a daily basis.

I think you are very wrong.

1. You cannot see the architecture from underground.
2. People do not wait for transit where they cannot see it. Unless you're waiting a long time, the historic station will not be an option for that.
3. Ticketing will be located in multiple places - that alone is not a reason to go there.
4. Amtrak tickets? So, you mean, BOTH people who buy an Amtrak ticket in person over the course of any given year?
5. Restrooms - one good reason.
6. Climate control, etc... see 2. above. People are not going to wait in there.
7. Bar, hotel - the other good reason.

There will be people. But it will not be bustling, and will be relatively detached from the transit, I think. That's why the addition of the hotel and other public uses was so important.

[mr1138]

I think we're on more of the same page than you think. I think the main purpose of the historic building will be for out-of-towners who just came in on the East Line (and that platform is right next to the back door of the building) and Amtrak users who have longer to wait. I also agree that the hotel and public spaces (and bar) are essential to activate it. But I think this will be plenty enough users to keep the space active and worth spending time in (if you have time to kill).

And I totally agree that bus and light-rail commuters will likely not use it. But that was kind of part of my other point. I don't necessarily think that kind of daily commuter should pass through that particular space every day. Or at least, if that was the purpose of the space, it would need to be open and unobstructed like New York's Grand Central rather than a waiting/reception area that is full of seating, plants and other barriers to movement.

[seventwenty]

Originally Posted by bunt_q

I think you are very wrong.

1. You cannot see the architecture from underground.
2. People do not wait for transit where they cannot see it. Unless you're waiting a long time, the historic station will not be an option for that.
3. Ticketing will be located in multiple places - that alone is not a reason to go there.
4. Amtrak tickets? So, you mean, BOTH people who buy an Amtrak ticket in person over the course of any given year?
5. Restrooms - one good reason.
6. Climate control, etc... see 2. above. People are not going to wait in there.
7. Bar, hotel - the other good reason.

There will be people. But it will not be bustling, and will be relatively detached from the transit, I think. That's why the addition of the hotel and other public uses was so important.

To add nuance by comparison. Boston's South Station is rather bustling for American train station. But they have the public amenities you speak of, to say nothing of Boston's much larger Amtrak, commuter rail, subway, and intercity bus presence.

It's probably good to think of DUS and other train stations as if they were DIA or any other airport: Like DIA, people are going to predominantly use DUS for transportation. If they can grab a bite to eat while waiting for a bus or train, great. Granted there will be new restaurants going at DUS, but I expect those restaurants to be a secondary attraction to transportation.

[wong21fr]

I think that the likely passengers that Union Station will capture will be those on the East Line, Amtrak and maybe the Northwest Line (or whatever train is assigned to Track 2) when there is inclement weather.

Light rail and bus passengers? Forget about it.

[seventwenty]

How connected will DUS be to the actual platforms again? You don't actually have to go into DUS to get to any train or bus, right? That's gonna make a (detrimental) difference to DUS use, IMO.

Originally Posted by wong21fr

I think that the likely passengers that Union Station will capture will be those on the East Line, Amtrak and maybe the Northwest Line (or whatever train is assigned to Track 2) when there is inclement weather.

Light rail and bus passengers? Forget about it.

How could you forget the Grand Continental and her passengers?

[wong21fr]

Originally Posted by seventwenty

How connected will DUS be to the actual platforms again? You don't actually have to go into DUS to get to any train or bus, right? That's gonna make a (detrimental) difference to DUS use, IMO.

Nope.

[Interzen]

Originally Posted by seventwenty

How connected will DUS be to the actual platforms again? You don't actually have to go into DUS to get to any train or bus, right? That's gonna make a (detrimental) difference to DUS use, IMO.

I'm glad there was no attempt to artificially inflate DUS traffic by forcing entry through the station. The complete transportation complex is huge and has many potential angles of approach. I get very annoyed at built environments that ignore the common desire of the pedestrian to get from point A to point B without arbitrary barriers and overly circuitous routes and walkways.

Is it going to be possible to walk around the end of the tracks to access all platforms from in the station without elevation changes? If so, I think there will be a percentage of train riders passing through to and from Wynkoop but I agree that it will not likely feel bustling most of the time.

[The Dirt]

You're all wrong about everything.

[bcp]

this is much less a design issue and much more a density issue - Denver RARELY is bustling because we simpler are not dense enough over a large enough area.

and there's too much focus on parking! :-)

[seventwenty]

Originally Posted by The Dirt

You're all wrong about everything.

Well, yeah. I mean, I'm posting after all.

[The Dirt]

Originally Posted by bcp

this is much less a design issue and much more a density issue - Denver RARELY is bustling because we simpler are not dense enough over a large enough area.

and there's too much focus on parking! :-)

I think pedestrian density is more a factor of transit service than built density (and commercial/restaurant options to a lesser degree) - at least in Denver. The 16th street mall is bustling not because it's dense in a way different from 15th or 17th but, because it has the best transportation option in the area - the free shuttle. Obviously, there's going to be a pretty large uptick in pedestrians in the DUS area and there will be spill-over to the historic building. I'm going to be a NIMBY and say that I'm fine with a modest uptick in pedestrians versus it's true potential because I want to enjoy the hall without having to bump into all of the undesirables from the suburbs waddling their chain restaurant eating, non-bike riding, strip-mall shopping carcasses through my precious hall.

Originally Posted by seventwenty

Well, yeah. I mean, I'm posting after all.

You've just created a paradox. Thanks a lot.

[EngiNerd]

Originally Posted by wong21fr

There are restrooms in the bus terminal, but they are near the Chestnut Pavilion. The signage in the picture is at the Union Station Pavilion.

I like the signage and using track numbers versus the train lines, but I hope that there are gate/track information displays in the bus terminal, train shed, and a big board in the great hall.

OK, thanks for the clarification. Makes a little more sense, it would be a long walk for those at the LRT platform if they needed to use one.

[The Dirt]

Am I the only one that thinks that posting platform numbers instead of line names is a bad idea? For anyone not familiar with the system, they'll first need to know that if they want to go southeast to the DTC, for example, they'll need to hop on the E line, and the E line will be at platform 5. So, instead of knowing I need to go southeast (a logical name for a line) they need to first remember the meaningless "E". Next, they need to remember that "E" means platform "5". So instead of remembering DTC = southeast, they have to remember DTC = southeast = E = 5. Blech.

Also, did anyone notice that an arrow down was being used to point forward. That's backwards. That's actually JFK Airoport-level bad, where they'll have an arrow down next to an escalator that takes you down but, instead they mean forward, while at other parts of the airport up is forward.