YVR Airport & Sea Island Developments Discussion

[Johnny Aussie]

AIR CANADA NARITA

As expected (I say that a lot) AC has downgauged YVR-NRT to a daily 763.

Total seats in the YVR-TYO Star Alliance market therefore increases from 349 to 425 seats per day. 532 per week.

Still waiting on the next 787 announcements

AIR CANADA DOMESTIC

Although early for domestic summer scheds, looks like AC will be running 2 daily 77W from YVR-YYZ. Last summer there were nil 77W flights. And more 763 flying again (and to YOW as well, see below).

Also, the early afternoon flight to YOW being upgauged to a 763.

KLM

KLM has also switched its daily 772 to a 333. So this is a decrease in capacity from 318 to 292 seats per day. 182 per week.

In my opinion this is a plus though as the 772 has middle seats in business class... very old school! If I'm going to be paying the big bucks for business class.. no thanks!

[rxp]

Delta Adds More Service to Support International Gateway in Seattle

PR Newswire

SEATTLE, Dec. 17, 2013

SEATTLE, Dec. 17, 2013 /PRNewswire/ -- Delta Air Lines (NYSE: DAL) will add new
daily nonstop flights to Seattle-Tacoma International Airport from San Jose
International Airport and Juneau International Airport as well as an
additional flight from Ted Stevens Anchorage International Airport, all
beginning May 29, 2014. The new service will provide customers with convenient
connections to the airline's growing international network from Seattle.

(Logo: http://photos.prnewswire.com/prnh/20090202/DELTALOGO )

Delta's new and expanded Seattle service includes:

o Four new daily nonstop flights from San Jose, Calif.
o One new daily summer seasonal flight from Juneau, Alaska – a new city to
Delta's network
o One additional summer seasonal flight from Anchorage for a total of three
daily nonstop flights

"The Pacific Northwest economy is one of the fastest-growing in the U.S., and
a big part of why we're adding domestic flights in support of our growing
global gateway in Seattle," said Mike Medeiros, Delta's vice president –
Seattle. "By next summer, we'll offer more than 2,500 daily international
seats as part of our 79 peakday departures to 25 destinations."

Delta's new service from San Jose will be operated by Delta Connection carrier
SkyWest Airlines using 76-seat, two-class CRJ-900s. The airline's new Juneau
service as well as the additional Anchorage summer seasonal flight will be
operated with a Boeing 737-800. Each aircraft is equipped with First Class and
Economy Comfort seating as well as onboard Wi-Fi.

The airline recently announced expanded Seattle service to Anchorage, Alaska,
Fairbanks, Alaska, Las Vegas, Los Angeles, Portland, Ore., San Diego, San
Francisco and Vancouver to support its increasing international network that
currently operates nonstop flights to Amsterdam, Beijing, Paris,
Shanghai-Pudong and Tokyo. The airline will also operate new nonstop
international service in 2014 to London-Heathrow in March as well as Hong Kong
and Seoul in June, pending government approval.

Every long-haul international Delta flight from Seattle now features full
flat-bed seats in BusinessElite, Economy Comfort seating and entertainment on
demand in every seat throughout the aircraft.

Delta currently operates 35 peak-day departures to 15 destinations from
Seattle, and every flight offers BusinessElite/First Class and Economy Comfort
seating as well as domestic Wi-Fi service. The airline has also invested $14
million in its facilities at Sea-Tac, including its recently completed lobby
renovations, new Delta Sky Club, Sky Priority services, new gate area power
recharging stations and expanded ticket counters.

Delta Air Lines serves more than 160 million customers each year. Delta was
named by Fortune magazine as the most admired airline worldwide in its 2013
World's Most Admired Companies airline industry list, topping the list for the
second time in three years. With an industry-leading global network, Delta and
the Delta Connection carriers offer service to 315 destinations in 58
countries on six continents. Headquartered in Atlanta, Delta employs nearly
80,000 employees worldwide and operates a mainline fleet of more than 700
aircraft. The airline is a founding member of the SkyTeam global alliance and
participates in the industry's leading trans-Atlantic joint venture with Air
France-KLM and Alitalia. Including its worldwide alliance partners, Delta
offers customers more than 15,000 daily flights, with hubs in Amsterdam,
Atlanta, Cincinnati, Detroit, Minneapolis-St. Paul, New York-LaGuardia, New
York-JFK, Paris-Charles de Gaulle, Salt Lake City and Tokyo-Narita. Delta is
investing more than $3 billion in airport facilities and global products,
services and technology to enhance the customer experience in the air and on
the ground. Additional information is available on delta.com, Twitter @Delta,
Google.com/+Delta, Facebook.com/delta and Delta's blog takingoff.delta.com.

SOURCE Delta Air Lines

Website: http://www.delta.com
Contact: Delta Corporate Communications, 404-715-2554

Source: http://online.wsj.com/article/PR-CO-20131217-908573.html?dsk=y

[moosejaw]

At the risk of not quoting the post above........If the above isnt enough justification for YVR to get in gear i dont know what it.
SEA has a lot more people going in and out than YVR. I think what hinders YVR becoming competitive is the fees and the in-transit visa issue.

All it takes is SEA to land south american destinations.

[Gordon]

Does Sea-Tac have In-transit facilities because generally U.s. Aiprots don't have them.

Will delta be operating it's red-eye to JFK this Summer?

[deasine]

Originally Posted by Gordon

Does Sea-Tac have In-transit facilities because generally U.s. Aiprots don't have them.

No none of the US Airports have them.

Responding to moosejaw's post, it begs the question what power does YVR really have? SEA is getting more service not because SEA is an excellent airport, but rather because DL is choosing SEA as a strategic gateway (also because there are few existing US services, notice the majority of hubs in the United States do not have a competitor: SFO-UA; DFW-AA; ATL-DL; MSP-DL; IAH-UA; DEN-UA; CLE-UA; PHX-US; MIA-AA; IAD-UA; CLT-US; etc. Only ORD-UA,AA; JFK/EWR: US-AA,DL,UA; LAX: UA,AA,US; etc.). AC has made it clear that YYZ is its focus and even with YVR making significant improvements and lowering fees, YVR cannot compete against YYZ based on economies of scale. Also note, YYZ isn't a bad airport, especially T1 where all of ACs operations are based at: I personally would rank YVR maybe a little higher (also because I'm bias) but really not by much. Our airport just doesn't fit into ACs short-term business portfolio and it will not be able to compete it. Thus I think YVRs current strategy in recruiting more international services seems to be the best way moving forward and at the very least, can improve network/destination diversification. With increasing services, there will eventually be demand for increasing feeder routes, and this is when WS and AC, and potentially any future Canadian airline, may step up to the plate to handle this increase.

[Millennium2002]

Originally Posted by Johnny Aussie

According to this article about Westjet pilots rejecting their new tentative agreement... I saw this paragraph down towards the bottom.

Ricardo Miranda is leading CUPE’s organization drive at WestJet, and said the flight attendants have many of the same concerns the pilots do, including the impact opening bases in Toronto and Vancouver in 2014 will have on them.

Another good sign of Westjet's commitment to YVR and its growing base there.

http://www.vancouversun.com/business/you...t+tentative+agreement/9228727/story.html

Off topic, but... that's the first time I've heard of unionization issues at a successful lower-cost airline such as WestJet.

I honestly think that the share-sharing model in WestJet is a pretty fair one considering how it rewards all employees in times of success. That in theory should keep everyone working towards the same goal of good returns year after year.

Given that, and noting all the other financial and work-related troubles that exist at Air Canada due to union struggles there, I feel this is probably one rare case where a union is not in the workers' best interest in the long term.

Anyway, back to topic... perhaps someone could move this elsewhere if desired.

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by moosejaw

At the risk of not quoting the post above........If the above isnt enough justification for YVR to get in gear i dont know what it.
SEA has a lot more people going in and out than YVR. I think what hinders YVR becoming competitive is the fees and the in-transit visa issue.

All it takes is SEA to land south american destinations.

My idea exactly. If that happens, YVR will be rather eclipsed, if not shot through the knees.
And are the Feds serious about letting South American destinations pass through YVR anyway?
I wish someone could clarify this precise point. It worries me.

[Gordon]

Craig Richmod the CEO of YVRAA will be having a meeting with the federal Minister of transportation In early 2014 to discuss the Visa issue as well as other competitiveness issues.

[Klazu]

Can't help it, but the discussion here seems to get stuck constantly stuck with repeated discussions on YVR needing to become a hub between Asia and South America and how Seattle is a serious threat to YVR's existence.

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by Klazu

Can't help it, but the discussion here seems to get stuck constantly stuck with repeated discussions on YVR needing to become a hub between Asia and South America and how Seattle is a serious threat to YVR's existence.

Excuse us, I undertsand what you mean, but these two topics ARE pertinent to YVR.
Most other posts are about Haneda versus Narita, why no service to KIX, and such, so I don't think there's too much risk in addressing the critical issues you mention.

Why critical? Easy. If Seattle gets the South American connector hub up and running before we do, YVR will always be a regional focus city, and little more.
IMHO.

[Cage]

Originally Posted by trofirhen

If Seattle gets the South American connector hub up and running before we do, YVR will always be a regional focus city, and little more.
IMHO.

There is a very small chance that Seattle would get a South American connector hub running for the following reasons:
- SEA major hub airline is domestic US narrowbody only.
- Other major new player in the SEA market is (DL) has poor presence in the South American market. If DL is to have a South American hub, it will be through ATL or LAX.
- There is a larger opportunity for UA to have a South America to Asia hub at IAH than SEA chances of getting South America international hub.
- If AA is looking to get into this market, They will create a hub from DFW.

The more pressing issue with YVR is that with new longer range mid-size wide body aircraft (specifically the 787) coming onto the market, there is another opportunity for American carriers and AC to hub Asia connections in locations that were not previously possible. SEA has this same market threat.

The path forward for YVR is to become a Western fortress hub for at least one airline. To accomplish this feat, YVR has to work with AC and give them preferential treatment. More importantly this is not just YVRAA imperative but also the imperative of the general YVR travelling population. Specifically the YVR travelling public has to embrace AC to be the primary market leader above other airlines that only make YVR a spoke operation. This is the tough battle for YVR as there is significant doubt the travelling population would accept AC with a 75% market share. Note that for fortress hub status AC would have to achieve 85% market share status, similar to DL at ATL and DTW, UA at EWR and IAH, US at PHX and CLT, AA at DFW.

Edit to Add: In the late 80s and into the mid 90s DL had a international Asia hub at PDX. The DL PDX operation was dehubbed about the time that AC got into HKG market. I remember that oAC got their initial Kai Tak slots from DL, this occurred under the Hollis Harris leadership as he had connections into DL (having held several senior positions).

[deasine]

Originally Posted by Cage

There is a very small chance that Seattle would get a South American connector hub running for the following reasons:
- SEA major hub airline is domestic US narrowbody only.
- Other major new player in the SEA market is (DL) has poor presence in the South American market. If DL is to have a South American hub, it will be through ATL or LAX.
- There is a larger opportunity for UA to have a South America to Asia hub at IAH than SEA chances of getting South America international hub.
- If AA is looking to get into this market, They will create a hub from DFW.

I've been trying to say that a few pages ago but have given up. SEA has experienced de-hubbing and a removal of international flights from US carriers for the past decade: only within these past 5 years has DL introduced significant international growth.

Then there's an issue of looking at geographies and how SEA is obviously not positioned to become a South American hub just as YVR is and will not become one either. For one, these cities are not far south, and even if you can capture demand from Asia, you won't be able to capture demand from other North American cities. Why? Because one would would have to backtrack to YVR or SEA in order to fly down South. That is a terrible waste of time and with the costs of doing business, airlines cannot possibly price tickets low enough to stimulate the low yielding demand.

Then there's an issue of competing airports and what destinations they offer. For South America, the hubs are IAH-UA, DFW/MIA-AA, and ATL-DL. LAX and JFK also have quite a number of flights but these cities have enough O&D. SEA cannot compete against any of these airports simply because the airlines are not interested in doing so at the expense of their current hubs. Notice all four of these US hubs to South America are far south in the United States. Similarly, YVR does not pose a real cost advantage as a South American hub for our home carriers, solely AC in our case. Why should AC introduce YVR as a South American hub at the expense of AC, when (1) the entire Canada practically needs to backtrack to YVR to fly down South; and (2) there are no significant time savings flying from Asia to South America via YVR when compared with YYZ. Given its current YYZ operations, why is it in ACs interest to move its operations?

SEAs increase from DL came for several reasons, and honestly I don't think the airport authority as a business really did much to rally for its increase. DL is dehubbing Japan as with UA. However, UA has a Japanese partner and a JV with ANA in addition to a strong foothold in the west already using its SFO base. DL has a terrible network on the west and if it is interested in expanding its business, it needs to launch more routes from the west. With dehubbing from NRT/KIX, it is thus able to move its Asian operations to the west, and it chose SEA because there aren't many competitors. DL partnered with AS initially so that it can sustain its TPAC operations without having to make a risky significant investment in changing domestic operations. It realised it could make SEA work and is now significantly increasing domestic operations knowing that there is business.

YVRAA is competing for business in an environment not favorable to our airport given our small city size and economic power. And it should not try to reach out for business that is unattainable. A South American hub operation of YVR is unrealistic unless YYZ goes downhill significantly, and I can tell you Pearson will not under its current management CEO (who happened to be an executive for HKG).

[Genauso]

This commentary has been an interesting read, thanks. It's nice to know what is new, and what will be new.

[Gordon]

I think the the airport authority is just trying to extend it's reach as much as possible. the Asia S America transit hub is maybe a bit of a longer term thing. It would be nice if yvraa was able get Ottawa to t re asses it's tax structure as it applies to the commercial airline sector.

[Johnny Aussie]

Originally Posted by deasine

I've been trying to say that a few pages ago but have given up. SEA has experienced de-hubbing and a removal of international flights from US carriers for the past decade: only within these past 5 years has DL introduced significant international growth.

YVRAA is competing for business in an environment not favorable to our airport given our small city size and economic power. And it should not try to reach out for business that is unattainable. A South American hub operation of YVR is unrealistic unless YYZ goes downhill significantly, and I can tell you Pearson will not under its current management CEO (who happened to be an executive for HKG).

You and I are on the same page. Exactly what YVR should be doing it is doing.

Not sure why some people are expecting YVR to become some sort of mega hub.

It's not going to happen. What is happening though is decent growth with so many international, domestic and transborder routes. Can reach most major centres in the entire world with one connection.

Vancouver is a city around 2.5 million. Geographically, demographically and economically it has its advantages and disadvantages.

Going forward there will be many new routes and depending on future bilaterals and / or open skies agreements this will play a role.

[Klazu]

Originally Posted by trofirhen

Excuse us, I undertsand what you mean, but these two topics ARE pertinent to YVR.

I know and there was no pun intended. I just expressed my amusement, although it seems that there can be more insight to these same topics. I also find this a very interesting thread to read.

I will have my next chance to fly out of our great airport tomorrow. I will be seeing enough airports for some time on my YVR-PDX-ORD-CMX and MSY-IAH-SEA-YVR routes.

[Johnny Aussie]

So another AC PEK update.

It's back to one daily for the summer but now upgauging from a 763 to a 77W.

So it's like YVR-NRT and YVR-PEK are swapping aircraft.

So now we know where the NRT 77W is going.

This is actually an increase in capacity still compared to last summer.

[Gordon]

I thought AC was running a running a red eye a coup,e of nights a week last Summer yvr pek

[YYCspotter]

Originally Posted by Johnny Aussie

So another AC PEK update.

It's back to one daily for the summer but now upgauging from a 763 to a 77W.

So it's like YVR-NRT and YVR-PEK are swapping aircraft.

So now we know where the NRT 77W is going.

This is actually an increase in capacity still compared to last summer.

So they now have an available slot at PEK? hmmmmmm..

[Cage]

Originally Posted by YYCspotter

So they now have an available slot at PEK? hmmmmmm..

No PEK slots available according to AC. The slot pair given up was not viable for services from canada. Kind of similar to the initial HND slots that were at compsrable times as PEK. AZc has also tried midnight departures on yvr-hkg with little profitable success.