South Fraser Perimeter Road/Highway 17 Extension | Completed

[Zassk]

Originally Posted by adrianroam95

Update: As of 2:25 AM December 25th the eastbound half of the SFPR directly east of the Alex Fraser Bridge has been striped and is ready to go.

Amazing. There were no stripes in the photos just a little earlier that evening. However, at the west end of the viaduct, they were reconfiguring the jersey barriers around sundown yesterday. They are working fast.

[Stingray2004]

So I drove the new section of the SFPR this afternoon from Tsawwassen to Hwy 99 - only NB lanes were open.

Posted speed was 80 km/hr albeit I drove same at 110 km/hr. While it is OK, too many curves without the proper curvature and super-elevation of a higher design speed. Major speed differential also of between >80 km/hr to 110 km/hr+. I can foresee many accidents occurring on this section with the higher speed differential between vehicles, sharper curves, and narrower paved median.

In fact, I can foresee most traffic continuing to use the old Hwy 17 section to Hwy 99 - clearer sight-lines, wider paved median, etc. Traffic has always travelled at between 100 - 120 km/hr on this section and will be much quicker to the GMT than the new SFPR.

Too bad that BC MoT utilized a 80 km/hr design speed with an RAD (Rural Arterial Divided) design.

Should have been a 100 km/hr design speed with either a RED (Rural Expressway Divided) or RFD (Rural Freeway Divided) functional design in the minimum as other jurisdictions such as Ontario and Alberta would utilize. Much safer and a proper design standard for a regional highway connector IMHO.

[moosejaw]

Originally Posted by Stingray2004

So I drove the new section of the SFPR this afternoon from Tsawwassen to Hwy 99 - only NB lanes were open.

Posted speed was 80 km/hr albeit I drove same at 110 km/hr. While it is OK, too many curves without the proper curvature and super-elevation of a higher design speed. Major speed differential also of between >80 km/hr to 110 km/hr+. I can foresee many accidents occurring on this section with the higher speed differential between vehicles, sharper curves, and narrower paved median.

In fact, I can foresee most traffic continuing to use the old Hwy 17 section to Hwy 99 - clearer sight-lines, wider paved median, etc. Traffic has always travelled at between 100 - 120 km/hr on this section and will be much quicker to the GMT than the new SFPR.

Too bad that BC MoT utilized a 80 km/hr design speed with an RAD (Rural Arterial Divided) design.

Should have been a 100 km/hr design speed with either a RED (Rural Expressway Divided) or RFD (Rural Divided Design) in the minimum as other jurisdictions such as Ontario and Alberta would utilize. Much safer and a proper design standard for a regional highway connector IMHO.

They should have just tolled it and let a private contractor build it like a true expressway and maintain it. Its such a shame that BC cheaps out on every infrastructure project there is.

[East Van]

Seems like the roadway could have benefited from more elevation in the cross section for it's many corners. This must come from the lower speed design aka cheaping out ? It's destined to be fast moving road since most south of Fraser drivers are already frustrated. Future speed trap central with long sight lines & the awesome 80km/hr limit. It should generate some money...

During the construction process it seems like there was a lot more sub contractors doing piece work on hwy 17 when compared to hwy 1 construction mostly done by Kiewit.

[theKB]

Originally Posted by Pinion

Tolling old bridges would be political suicide. The north shore bridges are already paid for through old tolls. I'd be okay with tolls if we got brand new 6 lane/8 lane bridges.

I agree, no government (unless gregor and the vision bunch start running the province) would be dumb enough to toss tolls on old infrastructure. I know people can argue as much as they want about costs and whatnot but whatever government does that will lose most of the lower mainland.

I think people who bypass the PM are dumb, but if the cost was dropped to a buck I don't think this would be in people's minds to go around. The government can argue time savings until they are blue in the face but these are the same people that spend hours running south to buy gas and groceries. Drop the toll to a number that people won't think about and I think in the long run revenues will go up.

[xd_1771]

North Arm crossings are also way cheaper than South Arm crossings. Look at the Pitt River bridge vs Port Mann. Yes, Pitt River is effectively 8 lanes and Port Mann is 10, but the diffence in cost is about 2 Billion for Port Mann vs. about 200 Million for Pitt River.

Would a 50 cent toll be worth collecting?

I believe the PMB was about $800 million actually. In addition, you can't really compare the two. PMB requires two long approaches and a long span whereas the Pitt River Bridge doesn't need to be as high-level and doesn't have the approaches.

[Zassk]

Originally Posted by xd_1771

I believe the PMB was about $800 million actually. In addition, you can't really compare the two. PMB requires two long approaches and a long span whereas the Pitt River Bridge doesn't need to be as high-level and doesn't have the approaches.

That's exactly his point. The same is true of the North Arm crossings. They are lower-level and much cheaper to build. Therefore, the argument for tolling all bridges is harder to apply to those bridges.

[GMasterAres]

Originally Posted by theKB

am I the only one that thinks there should be a toll on this road too? Maybe not a hefty one like they seem to have decided to go with on the Port Mann but as this is a major bypass route for the PM wouldn't it make sense?

Yes you are the only one.

[GMasterAres]

And I think tolling all the bridges is silly and a waste of money. You have to spend a huge amount to retrofit all the older bridges to have tolling cameras and the software/logistics of it is a nightmare.

Remember our road infrasturture has a large benefit to commercial and business traffic, so I say just keep it simple and up the sales tax. If you up the provincial sales tax by 1% then drop the tolls on the current tolled bridges, that may help.

I haven't done the math though but say up it to 8% from 7%, use and use the 1% to compensate for the reduced tolls on GEB and PMB then the rest for increased regional transit. Wasn't their a paper written that said even just a 0.5% increase in sales tax would pay for all the transit fantasies we all have?

So 1% would most likely compensate for dropping the tolls from $3 to $1.50 or even $1.00 which is reasonable.

At $1 a toll crossing anyone stupid enough to drive all the way to the Patullo is just a pure idiot anyway and you can't legislate/force idiots to not be idiots imo.

I'm a firm believer that when infrastructure is paid for it shouldn't be tolled and I have no issue with tolling the new infrastructure if it makes sense (especially bridges which are super expensive), but those tolls also have to be reasonable.

[GMasterAres]

Originally Posted by Stingray2004

So I drove the new section of the SFPR this afternoon from Tsawwassen to Hwy 99 - only NB lanes were open.

Posted speed was 80 km/hr albeit I drove same at 110 km/hr. While it is OK, too many curves without the proper curvature and super-elevation of a higher design speed. Major speed differential also of between >80 km/hr to 110 km/hr+. I can foresee many accidents occurring on this section with the higher speed differential between vehicles, sharper curves, and narrower paved median.

In fact, I can foresee most traffic continuing to use the old Hwy 17 section to Hwy 99 - clearer sight-lines, wider paved median, etc. Traffic has always travelled at between 100 - 120 km/hr on this section and will be much quicker to the GMT than the new SFPR.

Too bad that BC MoT utilized a 80 km/hr design speed with an RAD (Rural Arterial Divided) design.

Should have been a 100 km/hr design speed with either a RED (Rural Expressway Divided) or RFD (Rural Freeway Divided) functional design in the minimum as other jurisdictions such as Ontario and Alberta would utilize. Much safer and a proper design standard for a regional highway connector IMHO.

SFPR will be faster to the tunnel because there is no light at Ladner Trunk Road. You hit that light a lot of the time or traffic backs up when there is a ferry. I drive that stretch a lot and trust me it takes you as long to get through the Ladner Trunk intersection heading North typically than it does getting from 56th to the intersection. Without the intersection, even at 80kph, the SFPR will be faster imo.

I do agree with the fact though they should have constructed it to accomodate 100kph because quite frankly even the Police acknowledge that people typically drive 10-20kph above the speed limits in this city because 100-120 is just a more comfortable speed for most people. That said, I don't think it will be a huge deal. I do 90 on River Road right now which is as curvy if not more so and don't feel unsafe. People will also get used to the highway when it is done.

Even doing the speed limit though it will be lightyears quicker than River Road and/or having to cut through Surrey to get to Surrey Central or even HWY 1.

[SFUVancouver]

Originally Posted by xd_1771

I believe the PMB was about $800 million actually. In addition, you can't really compare the two. PMB requires two long approaches and a long span whereas the Pitt River Bridge doesn't need to be as high-level and doesn't have the approaches.

I am not sure if the cost of the bridge itself has publicly been separated from the entire Port Mann Hwy 1 construction project. The construction budget is officially $2.46 billion and when interest is factored in the total project cost is estimated to come in at about $3.3 billion. I lifted this from the project website:

The total cost to build the PMH1 Project, including construction, operations and maintenance, rehabilitation and interest, will be approximately $3.3 billion.

If the cost of the construction contract is $2.46 billion, why is the cost of the project estimated at $3.3 billion?

The total project cost of $3.3 billion includes construction costs as well as the cost of managing the project and overseeing the contractor, the tolling system and equipment, interest costs from the project debt and the purchase of properties along the corridor that are necessary for the wider highway and larger interchanges under construction.

http://www.pmh1project.com/info-centre/faq/Pages/Project-Cost-Timing.aspx

[Zassk]

The Sea to Sky highway was able to change my mind about building to 80 km/h. I expected a terrible highway from that project, but what we got on Sea to Sky (south of Lion's Bay) is so incredibly superior to what was there previously, so safe and moves traffic so well, that I no longer think it was a bad decision to save 50% of the cost by building to the lower spec.

I see SFPR as being very similar to Sea to Sky, where we will get 90% of the benefit of a freeway for 50% of the cost, and the next major improvement in 30 years could potentially upgrade it to a higher design speed. I expect that we will see more "almost freeways" built like this around BC in future, e.g. for the Cariboo Connector, the Malahat, and the twinning of Hwy 1.

[malabrat]

Google Maps and BC Ministry of Transportation did a great job (NOT!) of coordinating signage and maps of new SFPR Highway 17 opening:

[GMasterAres]

Originally Posted by Zassk

The Sea to Sky highway was able to change my mind about building to 80 km/h. I expected a terrible highway from that project, but what we got on Sea to Sky (south of Lion's Bay) is so incredibly superior to what was there previously, so safe and moves traffic so well, that I no longer think it was a bad decision to save 50% of the cost by building to the lower spec.

I see SFPR as being very similar to Sea to Sky, where we will get 90% of the benefit of a freeway for 50% of the cost, and the next major improvement in 30 years could potentially upgrade it to a higher design speed. I expect that we will see more "almost freeways" built like this around BC in future, e.g. for the Cariboo Connector, the Malahat, and the twinning of Hwy 1.

Would have to agree. I mean the Cariboo Connector I also drive quite a bit during the year and while it has been largely upped to 100kph everywhere, it would be overkill to full freeway it ie interchanges left right and center. I think a nice spread median in the middle or at least concrete barracades in some spots that don't have it + the widening as much as possible if not the whole stretch, but a full on freeway for some of these super long stretches is overkill.

And let's face it with the SFPR, it isn't the speed limit that will be the issue. It's all the damned intersections. You also can't compare to the GEB because the GEB connector (96th) is 60kph not 80kph. 60kph is _stupid_, 80kph is reasonable given the context of really slow speed limits in BC compared to the rest of the planet.

[makr3trkr]

SFPR as compared to the stretches of River Road signed as 80km/h:

River Road (80km/h portions):
- street parking
- uncontrolled intersections
- business access
- bus stops
- no divider / no median
- narrow shoulder
- alternating single and double lane

SFPR (80 km/h portions):
- no parking
- controlled access
- no bus stops
- fully divided
- wide shoulder
- entirely two laned

Rail crossing (River Road):
- at grade
- in a curve
- no gate
- no advance warning
- no pavement markings
- 60km/h

SFPR:
- crossing gate
- advance warning lights
- pavement markings
- 50km/h

[GMasterAres]

Originally Posted by malabrat

Google Maps and BC Ministry of Transportation did a great job (NOT!) of coordinating signage and maps of new SFPR Highway 17 opening:

Rofl give it a few days or a week. I love how at Ladner Trunk evidently the SFPR is a giant ski jump with an open gap. They did the same down at the tracks near the Roberts Bank curve.

[Flash604]

Originally Posted by malabrat

Google Maps and BC Ministry of Transportation did a great job (NOT!) of coordinating signage and maps of new SFPR Highway 17 opening:

Sorry, I tried to make it as seamless as possible, but someone who had never mapped before that day went in and marked the odd segment open here and there. As a result I couldn't apply edits to open large, sweeping portions at a time, but had to open them between their edits. Instead of a few edits, there were dozens, and it took quite a while to get them all published.

After publishing each tile at each zoom level in the multiple versions of maps has to be rerendered. As of about an hour after you posted it was showing fine at pretty well every zoom level in the new, preview Maps; but for major changes the current "old" maps can take a bit for the rendering.

I then spent last night working on Highway 1, so please don't complain that those aren't ready yet!

[DKaz]

We have the three sections of SFPR fully up and running in Waze. The full highway is there and will automatically come online January 1st, although I will change it when we get the official schedule.

I believe Google had these sections drawn in already, and when it noticed that drivers were driving on these stretches of road (pinging back for real time traffic information), they officially open the stretches. There is a small error you see, the landfill access from the offramp loop is disconnected.

[Flash604]

Originally Posted by DKaz

We have the three sections of SFPR fully up and running in Waze. The full highway is there and will automatically come online January 1st, although I will change it when we get the official schedule.

I believe Google had these sections drawn in already, and when it noticed that drivers were driving on these stretches of road (pinging back for real time traffic information), they officially open the stretches. There is a small error you see, the landfill access from the offramp loop is disconnected.

Sounds like a similar process. I drew the SFPR in Google Maps as an under construction road over a year ago, and I also opened the three sections as each opened; they are up and running.

[tybuilding]

Originally Posted by jhausner

Yes you are the only one.

I agree, toll it. We need to have more sections of tolled highway. Highway 1 in Burnaby should have been tolled along with the new section in Surrey/Langley. In Europe when I drove on the toll highway in Italy I entered a tolled section with a toll on the on-ramp and then the off ramps. $2.2 Billion was spent outside of the bridge crossing yet only the $800 million bridge is tolled. Many benefit from the highway expansion but only those crossing the bridge pay.

This is why GPS road pricing would be great to have.